New to digital person asks questions for a simple set-up

[ajramsayjaneway]

We just made the transition to digital signal from Comcast. I have a Panasonic DMR-EZ48V, which I had been led to believe I could use with my Comcast set top box, Motorola DCT-2000. However, it is becoming clear to me that even if I had gotten the DMR-EMZ48VK with ATSC tuner, I still can't do what I want to do: program the recorder to record programs from the cable. What I want to know is, am I correct? I have an analog TV and I have no desire to get HD or stuff like that. I was perfectly happy with my VCRs and my analog cable package. I like to record shows to watch later, and I like to archive a couple of them. I don't want to pay the monthly fee for a Comcast DVR. I just need someone to either confirm my suspicions, i.e., that I'd have to get a DVR to program recording, because my recorder cannot do it, or that I am missing something and there is a way to do what I want.

I have an MSEE, so you'd think I could figure this out! I appreciate any help I can get.

Alice in Illinois

[Krispy Kritter]

You should still be able to access the analog channels, unless Comcast has totally stopped broadcasting them. The digital channels are typically encrypted and require a cable box to decode.

[ajramsayjaneway]

That's the problem, they have turned off their analog signal. My DVD recorder can see the channels that it would see if it were on the house antenna, but none of the other digital channels. If I had an ATSC tuner, would I be able to discriminate channels from the decrypted output of the box? It doesn't see anything on that at the moment, but that's because the 48V has an NTSC tuner. I just can't tell if it would make any difference if I had an ATSC tuner.

[aedipuss]

once the signal comes out of the comcast digital box there is only the one channel it's set to send to the tv.

[ajramsayjaneway]

So it sounds like I can't do what I want with my current set-up. If I got Comcast's DVR, does anyone know if I would be able to take something from the DVR that I wanted to archive and copy it to my DVD recorder?

[Cornucopia]

I also live in IL and have Comcast so maybe this will help...

What inputs are you using for your DVR? You could use it as a pass through to your TV (via RCA composite, or God-forbid RF out).
If your DVR has Firewire (and I believe the Comcast boxes all have one - mine does), you could connect them that way and ALL non-encrypted signals are mandated by law to be able to pass out through it (IIRC). That should include SD & HD and should include most ALL basic cable channels. Certainly NOT things like HBO or PPV. There's a whole lot of discussion about this very thing if you do a Google search on "Motorola firewire capture".

Hope that helps,

Scott

[ajramsayjaneway]

I don't have a DVR. I just have the converter box that came free when they discontinued our analog signal. I'm trying to figure out how to get something similar to what I used to have: VCRs with which I could time-shift (record shows to watch later) and archive certain shows. I have a DVD recorder that I was told would accomplish what I want, but it cannot see all the channels that I want to record. It can only see the channels that one would see using over-the-air antenna. I assume it is because the converter box has to decrypt things (the Comcast guy said channels 27 and above are encrypted, but I can't even see up past 21). If I put the DVD recorder on the output of the box, it sees nothing, which may be because it has an NTSC tuner. But as I understand it, even if I had an ATSC tuner, I still wouldn't be able to program the DVD recorder to record from a channel of my choosing. I'd have to see the set top box to the channel I want to record and leave it there. Reminds me of the days of the 80's VCRs. Not progress.

So I'm trying to figure out what would give me a similar set up to my analog VCRs. The question is IF I got the Comcast DVR, I could do my time-shifting, but would I be able to archive some shows using my DVD recorder? Does the DVR have an output that I can connect to my DVD recorder and record something that I have DVR'd?

[usually_quiet]

I don't have a DVR. I just have the converter box that came free when they discontinued our analog signal. I'm trying to figure out how to get something similar to what I used to have: VCRs with which I could time-shift (record shows to watch later) and archive certain shows. I have a DVD recorder that I was told would accomplish what I want, but it cannot see all the channels that I want to record. It can only see the channels that one would see using over-the-air antenna. I assume it is because the converter box has to decrypt things (the Comcast guy said channels 27 and above are encrypted, but I can't even see up past 21). If I put the DVD recorder on the output of the box, it sees nothing, which may be because it has an NTSC tuner. But as I understand it, even if I had an ATSC tuner, I still wouldn't be able to program the DVD recorder to record from a channel of my choosing. I'd have to see the set top box to the channel I want to record and leave it there. Reminds me of the days of the 80's VCRs. Not progress.

So I'm trying to figure out what would give me a similar set up to my analog VCRs. The question is IF I got the Comcast DVR, I could do my time-shifting, but would I be able to archive some shows using my DVD recorder? Does the DVR have an output that I can connect to my DVD recorder and record something that I have DVR'd?

I have Comcast as well and have also had to switch to digital service. You can use your DVD recorder to capture the output from your cable box's or DVR's audio out (red and white ports) and composite out (yellow port) or S-video port (looks like a PS/2 connector for a keyboard), if you are lucky enough to get one of the models that has S-Video. Unfortunately if you want to record live TV from your cable box, you have to change the channels yourself, and you'll be limited to watching what you record. As I understand it, Comcast used to have a program timer available on their cable boxes (not the simple DTA converters) to change channels for you, but now all they have is a reminder to change the channel yourself.

Your DVD recorder has an ATSC/NTSC tuner that also tunes clear QAM as an undocumented feature. It should allow you to record any digital channels that Comcast has left in clear QAM (unencrypted) as well as any remaining analog channels. It is entirely possible that there are no unencrypted channels beyond 21. Comcast's official position is that they will only provide the digital equivalent of basic cable in clear QAM. (The FCC requires them to do that for locals.) Also, hopefully you are aware by now that the clear QAM channel assignments are not the same as the ones listed in Comcast's published line-ups. For example, channel 7 on the converter box may be assigned to 81-4 in clear QAM. You have to go through the channels the scan finds and figure out what they are for yourself.

In my area there are more unencrypted digital channels available than just the basic ones, but that situation isn't likely to continue, and Comcast periodically re-assigns some of them to new frequencies. I'm still using my old analog equipment to record from my cable box's S-video and composite connectors, but will admit that it isn't terribly convenient.

[Edit]I forgot to say that you can connect via composite video or S-Video, but can't use both at once. That means you may have to watch TV using your DVD recorder while recording from your converter box.

[True Colors]

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[True Colors]

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[True Colors]

Okay alice, I read your posts again and I think that I might understand your predicament.

Please tell me if this is correct.......

- your current comcast box cannot tune all of your channels

- your panasonic box won't tune all of your channels either

Am I on the mark on those things?

If those are your problems then you have no choice but to get a superior Comcast box(i.e., one that can decrypt all of the channels). That issue must be settled first. Then you can move onto the next issue about how to record and archive.

Also, can you please verify that this is the panasonic product that you own:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3921495&CatId=4672

and lastly, what type of computer do you have? If you own something which is relatively new then you might have a couple of other options

TC

[edDV]

I don't have a DVR. I just have the converter box that came free when they discontinued our analog signal. I'm trying to figure out how to get something similar to what I used to have: VCRs with which I could time-shift (record shows to watch later) and archive certain shows. I have a DVD recorder that I was told would accomplish what I want, but it cannot see all the channels that I want to record. It can only see the channels that one would see using over-the-air antenna. I assume it is because the converter box has to decrypt things (the Comcast guy said channels 27 and above are encrypted, but I can't even see up past 21). If I put the DVD recorder on the output of the box, it sees nothing, which may be because it has an NTSC tuner. But as I understand it, even if I had an ATSC tuner, I still wouldn't be able to program the DVD recorder to record from a channel of my choosing. I'd have to see the set top box to the channel I want to record and leave it there. Reminds me of the days of the 80's VCRs. Not progress.

So I'm trying to figure out what would give me a similar set up to my analog VCRs. The question is IF I got the Comcast DVR, I could do my time-shifting, but would I be able to archive some shows using my DVD recorder? Does the DVR have an output that I can connect to my DVD recorder and record something that I have DVR'd?

Sounds like you have a Comcast DTA, a simple box that converts digital channels to analog output. What you need is a DVD recorder with a guide that can IR control the DTA for channel changing. Some DVD recorders without a program guide can still be manually programmed to change DTA channels via IR control. The simple DTA's have only RF in and out. The analog input would come into the DVD reocerder on RF channel 3 or 4 (NTSC).

You might want to upgrade to a normal cable box if your DVD recorder doesn't support the DTA.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/317688-dvr-recording-with-Comcast-Digital?highlight=Comcast


PS. The Comcast DTA converts scrambled SD digital channels (expanded basic service) to analog NTSC RF on channel 3 or 4. The DTA is controlled by an IR transmitter that mimics the remote control.
http://digitalnow.comcast.com/Contents/DTA_online_ver_2.pdf

[True Colors]

And by the way....... if you do get a Comcast DVR and you use that to record your shows....... then yes, it would be very easy to output that recorded content over to your Panasonic for archiving purposes.

The higher grade Comcast box with DVR will have analog outputs(RCA, coax, S-video) and you can connect those directly to your Panasonic's analog inputs(RCA/coax/Svideo inputs). Piece of cake.

The only downside there is that you would have to do that in real time. A 2 hour show would take 2 hours to transfer.

If you were willing to spend a little money then you could have some other options. Personally I use a Tivo solution and it works wonderfully for me.

TC

[usually_quiet]

@ajramsayjaneway If all you have is a DTA, not a cable box capable of receiving a program guide and providing on-demand service, you are stuck using with the RF connection edDV spoke about to connect it to your Panasonic DVD recorder, and can disregard the instructions I gave unless you get a DVR or regular cable box at some point.

There are a couple of relatively recent DVD recorder models that I know of that have the ability to change the channels on an STB using an IR blaster. Unfortunately, they don't include a tuner or a coaxial input, so they won't work with a DTA converter. However they would work with a regular Comcast cable box or DVR. They are the Sony RDR-GX257 and Sony Sony RDR-GX360. I think both are still available as refurbs at a reasonable price.

I don't know if any of the more expensive pre-2008 models that included an IR blaster, tuner and a coaxial input would still work without guide data. (The guide data was broadcast in analog form, and may not be available to you.) You'd have to find one on eBay, and if in working order, they tend to be expensive even when used.

[edDV]

Recent "tunerless" DVD recorders usually come with IR Blasters (IR transmitters) to control normal cable boxes.

I'm not sure if the recent models with NTSC tuners offer DTA control. If they do you may need a firmware update since these DTA boxes are fairly new.

[usually_quiet]

Recent "tunerless" DVD recorders usually come with IR Blasters (IR transmitters) to control normal cable boxes.

I'm not sure if the recent models with NTSC tuners offer DTA control. If they do you may need a firmware update since these DTA boxes are fairly new.

Then nothing with an IR blaster is likely to work very well with a DTA.

..So the pre-2008 DVD recorders may not be able to change channels. It seems unlikely that the makers would still offer firmware updates for them at this point, since they are obsolete.

Recent tunerless DVD recorders have no RF in and no ability to tune analog channels 3 or 4, so the OP can't connect a tunerless DVD recorder to a DTA directly. A device with a tuner (old VCR?) would need to be put between the DTA and the tunerless recorder to convert the DTA signal from RF to composite or S-Video. I don't know how the OP feels about it, but I would not be thrilled with that solution.

[ajramsayjaneway]

This seems to be getting off track a bit. In my original post, I mentioned that I have a Motorola DCT-2000 set top box from Comcast, which is more than just a DTA. (We have DTAs for the other TVs in our house.) It does include OnDemand and a guide and all that.

I currently have my DVD recorder (a Panasonic DMR-EMZ48V with an NTSC tuner) directly on the cable. It's split so that the cable goes directly to the set top box and directly to the recorder. The DVD recorder sees the local channels, but uses the channel numbers as if it were from the antenna (e.g., 11-4). This is okay as long as I want to record something on the local channels. When I want to record from the set top box, I use the audio/video outputs from the set top box to the DVD recorder. So I have to remember to set the channel on the set top box when it's time to record that show. (Deja vu to the 80's VCRs.)

If I understand the previous posts correctly, if I did get a Comcast DVR, there are outputs from the DVR that I could use to play a show from the DVR and record it using the DVD recorder. It would have to be in real-time, but it would work. I've done that with some OnDemand shows, so that would not be a problem for me. Now all I have to decide is if I really want to pay for that -- is it worth it to me.

I appreciate everyone's input and let me know if there's anything I have misunderstood. This has been very frustrating, because I've had trouble getting a straight answer from anyone. Thanks.

[True Colors]

If I understand the previous posts correctly, if I did get a Comcast DVR, there are outputs from the DVR that I could use to play a show from the DVR and record it using the DVD recorder. It would have to be in real-time, but it would work.

Yes. That would work. Definitely. 100%.

If you would like to test this method in advance to make sure that you are comfortable with it then you can do so with your current equipment.

Connect your equipment in this order.....

cable wire from the wall----> your current comcast tuner----> your Panasonic recording device----> your TV

The back of the current comcast box should have analog outputs on the back...... S-video cable, RCA(red, white, yellow) and also the plain old coaxial type of output.

Just simply pick one of those outputs and connect it to the matching input on your Panasonic box. Then record any random TV show for the purpose of seeing what it will look like.

TC

p.s. the easiest way would be to use a coaxial cable from the tuner box to the panasonic box. Set your panasonic box to channel 3

[usually_quiet]

@ajramsayjaneway

You havn't missed anything, and since your TV is an analog-only model, your current set-up is fine.

Even though you would probably figure this out on your own, when you finally need to replace your TV and must buy an HD set with a digital tuner, I suggest some changes to the way your equipment is currently connected. (This is assuming you don't get an HD cable box or DVR at that time.)

You would still split the signal from the wall and run one leg to the DCT-2000, and connect the other to your Panasonic DVD recorder. You'd also still connect the DCT-2000 and the Panasonic DVD recorder using the A/V or S-Video when recording from the cable box. The only change I'd suggest is to also connect the coax out and HDMI from the DVD recorder to the TV.

HDMI provides the best picture quality and sound. The DVD recorder's coax out is just a pass-through for the cable signal from the wall, and your TV's digital tuner will deliver a clearer picture for your local channels than your cable box provides. Plus, you will have some HD local channels available that way.

[LadyAmethyst]

I guess this really isn't a reply so much as a clarification. So, after reading through this, half of which I don't really understand, I am left with the conclusion that there are NO recorders on the market today that can do what we used to be able to do, record anything we wanted on the channel that we wanted without any human intervention. Is this correct?

[edDV]

I guess this really isn't a reply so much as a clarification. So, after reading through this, half of which I don't really understand, I am left with the conclusion that there are NO recorders on the market today that can do what we used to be able to do, record anything we wanted on the channel that we wanted without any human intervention. Is this correct?

No. Current generation DVD recorders use IR control of the cable box and are controlled from the DVD recorder recording guide. Did your Panasonic not come with an IR controller and instructions? Granted this requires you program recordings manually while looking at an external guide (e.g. TitanTV on a computer). More sophisticated solutions like a Tivo or a HTPC will maintain their own guide from internet downloads or DTV data downloads.

Sound complicated? Yes. That is why 95% of people pay the cable company an extra $10-15/mo. to rent the cable company's DVR.

[LadyAmethyst]

edTV,
I have no idea what an "IR control of the cable box" is so I don't know.
Anyway, I couldn't get the hookup right so I had Comcast come out and hook things up for me. The following is a diagram of the hook up they did. They put a splitter on the cable coming out of the wall:

[dta] --> hdtv
|
[splitter]
|
[cable box] --> dvd/vcr --> hdtv

So I have both a dta and a cable box on my tv but the at least now, I can record a show on the dvd/vcr but the cable box has to be manually set to the station I want to record and the dvd/vcr thinks all of the stations are channel 4. But I can record and watch another channel during the recording by changing my tv from AV (where the cable box to DVD/VCR is hooked up at) to TV (where the dta is hooked up). The only problem that I have with this is that the channel guide is only displayed on the line with the cable box. So I have to have an written down list of the programs & channels that I want to watch while the recording is taking place. How's that for complicated?

I'm already paying for the cable box and I don't have enough money to add their DVR to the bill.

So are the makers of recorders ever going to be able to make a unit that works like they used to??

[edDV]

An IR (infrared) emitter fits to the front of the cable box to allow the DVD recorder to change channels as if it were a remote control. Then the DVD recorder is programmed with your cable channel lineup so you can set a record schedule. That is the only solution offered by certain DVD recorders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_blaster


"So are the makers of recorders ever going to be able to make a unit that works like they used to??

Not likely. The cable companies are replacing the old analog SD "extended basic cable channels" with encrypted digital channels that can only be tuned on a DTA, cable box, or "cable card" digital tuner. So the DVD recorder needs to take control of the DTA/cable box, or tune the encrypted channels directly. While possible in theory, the cable companies are making this solution as difficult as possible to encourage you to rent their solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_card

That connection arrangement you show would not allow reception of HD programming. If that cable box is HD capable, you would feed the HDTV directly from the cable box with HDMI or analog component cables.

[LadyAmethyst]

edDV,
Thank you for your explanations that helps me understand something’s better.

Well I did some looking and previously you asked "Did your Panasonic not come with an IR controller and instructions?" The answer is no. Now, how do I find out if there is one for my DVD/VCR? And second, if there is one, is there some way to get it?

Then in your last response you said;
"That connection arrangement you show would not allow reception of HD programming. If that cable box is HD capable, you would feed the HDTV directly from the cable box with HDMI or analog component cables."

The answer to that is no I don't think that the cable box that I have is HD capable. It is a Motorola Starfone Model SFT2-C. I have had it of about 3 years which is before I got my current HDTV.

You stated "While possible in theory, the cable companies are making this solution as difficult as possible to encourage you to rent their solution."

Well, I want to try all of the ways possible to do it myself no matter how much time it takes. I am getting really tired of these companies limiting my choices and as far as I’m concerned they already make too much money!!!

[edDV]

The DVD recorder either supports IR control or it doesn't. Many Sony models have this feature.

You should look into an upgrade to an HD cable box. Cost is low. Here I get nearly 100 HD channels and all the HD "On-Demand" content.

Alternates to cable DVR are "TIVO" or various home theater PC configurations. Tivo is expensive, HTPC's are complex. Most used is Windows MCE.