Premiere Pro CS3 out-of-order/missing fields but progressive content?

[Black Knight]

Hello all,

I have some video I have recorded with my Intensity Pro over HDMI from my xbox360. I have edited many times before in 720P from clips just like this. I capture with Blackmagic's MJPEG. Works great in Sony Vegas but I have moved to PP and it looks as if the fields are out of order.

All settings for the project are set to progressive and when I encode the movie I choose progressive. I have tried changing field dominance on the clips, no effect. The odd thing is that when I encode, if I choose upper field first, it resolves the issue but now it is interlaced so when there is horizontal movement I get interlacing lines so that's not really working. I need to switch around the fields but keep the settings to progressive. It was my understanding that's what the change field dominance option does!

My only guess is that PP is decoding the MJPEG incorrectly as I see the issue in the preview window also. Does anyone have any ideas? I have more experience with Sony Vegas but I have crawled over every option I could find in PP.

Thanks for any help!

[edDV]

XBox 1080i output is interlace not progressive. The MJPEG capture file is also interlace (upper field first). You are skipping a step if you want a progressive timeline. You would need to deinterlace (e.g. avisynth) before import or deinterlace in Premiere.

XBox 720p output should be progressive. There are no fields. Are you capturing 720p/30 or 720p/60?
What are your Premiere project settings?

[edDV]

It seems you are describing encoder settings. If the source and project are 720p/30, when you encode to 480i DVD MPeg2, both fields will come from the same frame so there will be no motion line tear.

If the source and project are 720p/60, when you encode to 480i DVD MPeg2, fields will be extracted from separate frames. This will show as standard interlace motion tear.

There is no standard for DVD 60p, it must be interlace 29.97 fps or progressive 23.976 fps.

[Black Knight]

I know there is a 1080i output but I am not outputting 1080i from the 360. The 360 can output 1080i, 720P and 1080P. I have the 360 outputting 720P and my capture settings for my Infinity Pro is set to 720P 59.94. The capture is done with virtualdub and I use the BM MJPEG compression and the resulting video looks perfect. I then use virtualdub to convert the framerate to 29.97 which makes another BM MJPEG file that also play just fine. I have used the file in Sony Vegas 9 and the project is set to 1280x720 29.97 and I get no field issues. However, in PP the project is also set to 1280x720P 29.97 and I get this field issue. I want to encode a video in the same format (1280x720@29.97) except I am clipping many sections video files together and will use a temporal compression like WM9 or H.264 so I can then upload to the internet. I am not trying to go to 480i or any sort of DVD or interlaced format.

And yes, I realize everything I am doing is 100% progressive. But that's what my issue is, PP is still making the fields out of sync. I can "fix it" if I change the encoding process to treat my source as upper field first (instead of progressive) and the fields are then correct but then it is obviously a 1280x720i@29.97 video which is not correct for a digital/desktop video format and I get interlace tearing.

[poisondeathray]

what does mediainfo say about your blackmagic file? about your export from PP?


when you right click the clip in the clip bin, and interpret the footage , what does it say? try interpreting as progressive if it "thinks" it's progressive

why are you using 720p29.97 if your clip is 720p59.94 ?

[Black Knight]

I am currently at work so I will get what mediainfo says once I am home. Most console games run at 30 FPS but the 360 will still output the normal 720P@59.94. Instead of encoding the same frame twice I convert the 59.94 to 29.97 and there really is no loss in frames since the file simply was doubling each frame. Also youtube only supports 30FPS as well so encoding a 59.94 video just wastes bit rate that could be used on less frames.

In PP, when I interpret, there is no option about fields or anything about progressive or upper/lower fields (unless I missed it somehow, I remember looking alot). I have seen that in AE's Interpret Footage window but not PP's.

Its like PP knows its progressive but for some reason every other line is out of order. It's really baffling me. Again, Sony Vegas 9 also set to 1280x720P@29.97 and progressive settings results in perfect output, but Sony vegas 9 lacks several features of PP which is why I am using PP now (or attempting to).

EDIT: Also, when playing my "out of order" encoded file, it plays progressive, there is no interlace tearing or any bobbing of the fields, you can see they are just out of order.

[edDV]

Will the XBox output 720p/30?

I think the issue may be in the 60p to 30p conversion. Better to do this in avisynth. Somehow your PP settings are causing the PP encoder to interlace the 720p/60 to 720i/29.97 or 480i/29.97.

Youtube goal is new info.

[Black Knight]

Well youtube is irrelevant, All youtube does is re-encode in their own temporal format of 1280x720P at 30FPS. I have made several videos before using this same method in Sony Vegas 9, I have even NOT changed my framerate down to 29.97 and kept it 59.94 and youtube automatically takes it down to their format with syncing issues or interlacing issues. Its just faster encoding and smaller file sizes and quicker upload times and better quality since the same bit rate is used on ~30FPS instead of ~60FPS.

Here is my last video with the same game, BM MJPEG used to capture and then coverted to 29.97 and then edited in Sony Vegas 9. It comes out great:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ble206bTc9Y

You can also see the countless other 360 720P uploads I have done.

No the 360 will not output at anything but 59.94 since that is the standard for 720P or 1080P or 1080i.

Are you saying I should use avisynth instead of virtualdub to convert to 29.97? I guess what I am having issue with is why Sony Vegas 9 (and possibly other video editors, I am in no way biased to any editor, I just want things to work) is able to handle this just fine. To be honest the solution in PP should be the reverse field dominance.

[edDV]

The issue is something you are doing in PP is interlacing the video.

[Black Knight]

Yes I know, I am trying to figure out what settings in PP I can try besides the project setting (which is set to progressive), the encoding process (which I set to progressive) and the reverse field dominance option in each clip (which I tried and has no effect). I am out of options to mess with and which is why I am hoping someone here knows of others options that may be available.

One question I have is if there is a way to have PP handle my source files in a different manner, perhaps using a different decoding method? PP has native support for my BM card and its MJPEG format but perhaps it's not doing it quite right and maybe there is another way to do so? I am guessing here at the moment.

[poisondeathray]

There should be no fields, if the project settings are progressive, the footage is progressive (and interpreted as progressive), and you export as progressive.

The only thing I can think of is PP "thinks" it's interlaced. You can override that by interpreting the footage (right click in the clip bin)

If you set as progressive, there is no option to reverse field dominance (I think it's greyed out). So you must be doing something wrong, or PP is interpreting the file incorrectly

[Black Knight]

When in PP and you interpret a clip from the clip bin, you get a choice for progressive or otherwise? Perhaps I am missing where this option is in the interpret footage window.

EDIT: From memory I remember combing the interpret footage window but only saw thing like pixel ratio and framerate and perhaps other settings. I may have overlooked it.

[Black Knight]

Yes I believe that was the case, the field choices were grayed out due to my project being progressive. I might do a test and have virtualdub take one of the video files I am clipping (I have about 30-34 clips each being around 5-20GB in size that are being all chopped down to the interesting bits) and reverse the fields and make them out of order and see if PP then reverses them again which would be a double negative and produce the correct pattern. If this happens then I can be certain that the fields are being reversed by PP for no reason when the source files are progressive and the lines order should not be changed.

[poisondeathray]

What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

There should be no fields in the first place.

If reversing the field dominance (top vs. bottom field first) causes a noticeable effect, you probably have interlaced footage, not progressive (or PP is interpeting the footage incorrectly). If you are 100% certain it's progressive, then interpet as progressive and everything should work out fine.

[edDV]

From your first post, you were talking about encoder settings.

Do you see interlacing on the timeline or only after encoding?

[Black Knight]

@poison

Yes I know, it doesn't make sense. And reverse field dominance does not work or cause any effect. I am 100% certain its progressive and I have everything I can think of in PP set to progressive. I am home now and will download mediainfo and get you some info.

@edDV

I never see interlacing. Imagine a progressive source that has every other line switched, as if it was an upper/lower field issue in an interlace srouce, but you get no interlace tearing and no bobbing of the lines. If I can upload videos here I will show you a small piece so you all can see.

And when you say the timeline, I assume you mean in the preview window? And yes, in that window I see the above described issue, not actual interlacing.

[Black Knight]

Here is a small portion, its really easy to see the bottom left names being some what hard to read. Also the cross-hair's horizontal line isn't displayed properly.

[poisondeathray]

That doesn't help very much, because it's probably your exported file (you used WMV)

Your error could be elsewhere in the chain from capturing , to projects settings, to export settings, etc... - basically anything - it doesn't help narrow down the issue that much.

It does show jaggies and aliasing - but that might have been from the xbox source (maybe it was already that low quality with low AA)

There is also some pixellation at the beginning which looks like decoding errors

Perhaps if you uploaded the corresponding source file it might help to narrow down the issue. You could use vdub in direct stream copy mode to cut a section, for example.

[Black Knight]

I know what I uploaded, I was trying to show the issue that arises. Here is one of the source files after its framerate was changed to 29.97 (which still looks fine when being played in VLC or WMP). I realize the game has no AA but I was referring to that, I am referring to the text. You can see how this looks appropriate.

EDIT: Oops hold on, didnt see the size limit, over shot it by 12 mb.....

[Black Knight]

Here we are, I dropped the audio and shortened it. You can see how much more clear the text is on the bottom left. Just so you know, the WM9 was set to quality 90 so its not a compression issue. I see the same issue in the timeline preview before encoding. I am almost certain that this is a decoder issue. PP must be using a different method than VLC, WMP, Virtualdub, and Sony Vegas 9 to decode the videos since all of them do it just fine.

[poisondeathray]

If you use mediainfo, it reports it as interlaced (this is what PP "sees" as well)

The wrapper, or header info reports the file is interlaced, but examining the content, it is progressive.

So to PP, it applies a deinterlace when rendering, and that lowers your quality

As said earlier, to fix this, just right click the footage and interpret as progressive. I am on CS4, but I think CS3 has this ability too

Also, how did you do the framerate conversion? Did you drop every 2nd frame? What app did you do this in?



Video
ID : 0
Format : M-JPEG
Codec ID : MJPG
Duration : 2s 603ms
Bit rate : 74.6 Mbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Resolution : 8 bits
[/b]Scan type : Interlaced[/b]
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.702
Stream size : 23.2 MiB (100%)

[Black Knight]

INTERESTING. I wonder why it is marked interlaced. I check my TRUE source files (before my 60>30FPS conversion) with media info and they too say interlaced. Doubled check virtualdub and the recording settings and its clearly 720P 59.94.

Where exactly would I be doing this right clicking? The clip bin? When I do that I only see the pic I attached.

EDIT: I used VirtualDub and used the "convert to FPS" function. I also tried the "process every other frame" but I just decided to use the convert function.

[poisondeathray]

Hmm, maybe CS3 doesn't have that...

Well I double checked and CS4 "sees" it as progressive natively (earlier I suggested to interpret the footage, because this is what you have to do when the wrapper is interlaced, 30p in 60i content from camcorders)

Here is the dialog box in CS4, and a straight encode out of PP=>AME, and it doesn't appear to have the same issues

I high suspect it's the interlaced signalling (header info that mediainfo reports) that is giving you issues

[Black Knight]

What were your project settings/template?

[poisondeathray]

What were your project settings/template?

I didn't use a preset. I used a sequence setting that matched your file, ie. 1280x720 29.97fps progressive

If PP did "see" it as interlaced, you would use the "conform to" option in my screenshot above. Perhaps it's located somewhere else in CS3?

[Black Knight]

Here are all the settings I have see pertaining to fields. It has always been like this.

[poisondeathray]

Can you try another export format? like h.264 or xvid? maybe your wmv encoder is b0rked?

Can you try another custom setting for editing mode instead of "blackmagic"?

Also you missed the most important screenshot, the sequence settings. I think it's under "default sequence" for CS3

Also, review your capture process. You said your "original" 60fps files were reported as "interlaced" as well => perhaps there are some options to fix this?

[Black Knight]

HA! Well here is the funny thing, I decided to tell WM9 to "deinterlace the frames and encode" and that resolves the issue. Atleast it is a workaround that appears to not make the image quality suffer from being interlaced and then de-interlaced. Here is the result.

I am not sure why CS3 is doing such when my settings are quite clear.

[poisondeathray]

Well that's not really a decent workaround for a "pro" software IMO. Interlacing it , then deinterlacing it will not only degrade quality, but increase render times

I faintly remember that it's WMV that has that quirky issue. To confirm, answer my questions above (i.e. try another export format like xvid)

Also , post your sequence settings

[Black Knight]

Here is a Quicktime .mov movie in H.264. This is with all settings to progressive and no attempt at a workaround.

Where do I find the sequence settings?

Oh and yes I agree this is not a good workaround. I mean purely a workaround for this particular project since I would like to get it on the net ASAP. I would love, of course, to get PP interpreting the footage as progressive and not doing any of this field dancing.