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  1. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    Who out there who doesn't have a VCR with a line TBC uses a DVD recorder in their capture chain as a line TBC (example of Panny ES10 used as line TBC shown in this post: (https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/299682-Wavy-video?highlight=ES10+line+TBC)? What do you use and how good a job does it do?

    Can you post some examples like the thread I referenced?
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  2. I borrowed a Panasonic ES15 for a few tapes. Worked fine for me. My sources had pretty clean hsync to start with though (much better than the samples in the link).
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  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Most don't recorders DO NOT have an actual TBC inside. At best, many of them have a frame sync, while others just have various filters that do varying degrees of TBC-like or sync filter-like tasks to incoming video. You can't honestly expect a $100 TBC to be inside a $100 DVD recorder.

    Read more about TBC, in this analysis of devices that exist, and claim to have a TBC inside, and analyzing what they do

    Many DVD recorders, including the ES10, do damage to the video quality input, be it luma values, temporal NR, or other artifacts. Watch for this. Only use a DVD recorder for a TBC when the source needs improvement. For a "clean" solution, get a real TBC.

    I'll use an ES10 when it helps, but it's a poor solution for a full-time TBC.
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  4. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    You can't honestly expect a $100 TBC to be inside a $100 DVD recorder.
    ...but it's been shown that there are very useful (i.e. better than most stand-alone) TBCs in some camcorders with analogue inputs.

    I don't think cost has much to do with it. If the device already has memory to store a frame of video, not to mention processing power to encode MPEG video, then adding TBC functionality to this is more about implementation than cost.

    Cheers,
    David.
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  5. A DVD recorder has almost every component needed in a standalone TBC. Support to align scanlines is a trivial addition. They also benefit from economy of scale.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Many DVD recorders, including the ES10, do damage to the video quality input, be it luma values, temporal NR, or other artifacts. Watch for this. Only use a DVD recorder for a TBC when the source needs improvement. For a "clean" solution, get a real TBC.
    Each time when you insert a new intermediate equipment will be some loss, higher or lower. This is also true for all external TBC. To minimize losses, the chain should be keep as short as possible. The ideal workflow it was covered in a dedicated topic.
    From my experience TBC built-in Panasonic recorders (made with own chips) are very effective, just like a TBC from high end VCR.
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  7. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    Just to be clear about things...I already have 3 JVC VCRs with TBCs (7600, 9500, 9900) and 2 stand alone TBCs (Datavideo TBC-3000 and I.Den IVT-7). However, the standalone TBCs don't do a particularly good job of what the JVC VCRs' TBCs excel at, that is, correcting the timing of the scanlines so there is no waviness in the image. I specifically want to know if there is a device (for instance the ES10) that I can use as a passthrough device with VCRs other than the JVCs to obtain the effect of the JVC TBC (not considering the DNR aspects of the JVCs).

    I already knew of the ES10, but as LS says, there may be other issues caused by the ES10 that may not make it suitable for use in most cases. What I am really looking for is something that can align scanlines like the ES10 can do, but maybe with less of the undesireable issues the ES10 is alleged to cause, so I can use it most of the time in my capture chain. Or if someone wants to tell me the ES10 doesn't really do anything all that bad to the image when used as a passthrough device, I'm open to listening to that also.

    I seem to recall in the past some people also claiming that Toshiba DVD recorders (RD-XS34's and a RD-2) could do the same thing as the ES10, and maybe without some of the undesireable side effects. I'm just asking people for their experiences to decide whether it may be worth checking out ebay for a used machine that may be helpful. So, if you use a DVD recorder in your chain for this purpose, please let me know about your experience, good or bad. I want to know what I should consider, and what I shouldn't consider, and why.

    TIA.
    Last edited by BrainStorm69; 13th Apr 2010 at 14:44. Reason: edited to be clearer about using the device as a pass-through device, not to record with it. Also to add reference to specif
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    There is two types of time base errors. One type affects horizontal synchronization signals that causes wavy lines. These errors are corrected by Line TBC incorporated into the high end VCR and some DVD recorders (ES10).
    The other type of error affects vertical sync signals that cause dropped frames. These errors are fixed by external TBC who have frame synchronizer. A DVD recorder should have inside at least this type of TBC but some don`t have even this type of TBC. The line TBC found in Panasonic and JVC vcr don`t heal vertical synch.
    However, the standalone TBCs don't do a particularly good job of what the JVC VCRs' TBCs excel at, that is, correcting the timing of the scanline so there is no waviness in the image.
    The reason behind this is that Datavideo TBC-3000 and I.Den IVT-7 act as a frame synch, heal only the v-synch errors and leave h-synch errors unfixed.

    LS exaggerate side effects made by ES10 in passthrough mode. I assure you that the losses caused by ES15 are significantly smaller that those caused by DataVideo TBC.
    Anyway, if you want maximum quality should avoid using external TBC. Inside external TBC and DVD recorder in passthrough mode occur two conversions (analogue signal is converted in digital form and after the digital signal converted in analogue signal).

    The ideal workflow have only two devices: VCR>>capture card. Inside one of these you should make all corrections (fix TBC errors, fix problems related to Proc Amps, Detailers and Image Enhancers). In this way you avoid losses causes by repeated conversions. Unfortunately there is no consumer capture card with TBC built-in and advanced Proc Amps settings.

    If you want to fix wavy lines and by-pass the noise reduction made by JVC DigiPure I suggest to buy a Panasonic S-VHS VCR with TBC or insert in chain a TBC that fix H-synch errors (ES15).
    Last edited by danno78; 13th Apr 2010 at 15:25.
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  9. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    I specifically want to know if there is a device (for instance the ES10) that I can use as a passthrough device with VCRs other than the JVCs to obtain the effect of the JVC TBC (not considering the DNR aspects of the JVCs)..
    Try the JVC D-VHS decks. There's been some discussion on these units for about 5 years now:
    It can give effects of ES10 sync, but without ES10 drawbacks. It does still have JVC drawbacks, for those that complain about the slight temporal or intra-frame (which is NOTHING compared to the Panasonic)

    LS exaggerate side effects made by ES10 in passthrough mode.
    I disagree. The only thing exaggerating here is the Panasonic. I'd post samples, but I'm just too busy right now.

    I'm not saying it's a bad unit, but it's also far from being transparent passthrough.
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  10. Preservationist davideck's Avatar
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    The Philips 3575 DVD Recorder is a great TBC. The Toshiba RD-KX50 is better than the DataVideos but not as good as the Philips.
    Life is better when you focus on the signals instead of the noise.
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  11. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    davideck - long time no post to. Good to read you again.

    I did some searching for other posts of yours about the 3575 and it sounds pretty darn good. Unfortunately, its also still about $250 or more refurbed on ebay. Any idea if the 3475 (no HDD, also doesn't look the same and was not marketed as a high-end unit) has the same line TBC ability? They are much cheaper on ebay.
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  12. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by davideck View Post
    The Philips 3575 DVD Recorder is a great TBC. The Toshiba RD-KX50 is better than the DataVideos but not as good as the Philips.
    Didn't Gshelley have opposite opinion on the Toshibas? I think he did.

    I'll give that Philips a try sometime. I've now got 3 tests to do on there, so it's looking like I'm going to be doing that sooner rather than later.
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  13. Preservationist davideck's Avatar
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    BrainStorm69 - Nice to see you back, too! Are you looking to replace your AG-1980?

    I don't have a clue about the other Philips units. You should PM orsetto. He might know.


    LS - IIRC, Gshelley praised the Toshiba for its transparency as a proc amp and frame synchronizer.
    Life is better when you focus on the signals instead of the noise.
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    Id highly recommend using the ES10 as a pass through if you have the JVC 9600/9800 or similar SVHS decks.
    I got one because of Lordsmurf's advice and it does do a great job of helping some of the jitter found on vhs tapes.
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    Also, ive used a Toshiba DR4 (I believe the model was) as a pass through and it really didnt help jitter like the ES10 does.
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  16. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    LS, it'd be great if you could do some testing and let us know about the results.

    davideck, maybe I'll try asking him. They are definitely less expensive.

    duece8pro, thanks for another data point on the ES10.

    Finally, my recollection was that my Pioneer DVR-220 doesn't really work as a line TBC. I did a little pass-through testing tonight that confirmed that once again.
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  17. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    I don't know if anyone has any experience with the Toshiba D-R4, but under the "Detailed Specs" tab on this page, it mentions "Time Base Correction" as one of the features of the D-R4.

    http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=d-r4
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  18. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Yeah, but I've gone over that before: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/alternative-avt-8710-1853.html?p=9889#post9889
    I could write "Ferrari" on the side of a station wagon, but it's not necessarily accurate.

    @davideck
    Gshelley and I corresponded offline a good bit, too, and I think some of his notes are handwritten and/or typed papers in my file cabinet. Oh boy, research time.

    I had a Toshiba DR-5 last September, for testing, and it definitely DID NOT help analog input sources. It barfed on my VHS tape test, saw "copy protection" on a 1985 HBO recording. Tape looked good, but audio was noisy. Same for my S-VHS-ET test, the recording halted.

    Although I see some of you guys at other places too (duece8, 2B), it's nice to see the "old gang" in a single thread. It's been years.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 15th Apr 2010 at 09:45.
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  19. Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    I already knew of the ES10, but as LS says, there may be other issues caused by the ES10
    Since you can get them for US$35 (US$50 delivered) why don't you just buy one and find out?
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  20. Last edited by jagabo; 15th Apr 2010 at 10:08.
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  21. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by danno78 View Post
    There is two types of time base errors. One type affects horizontal synchronization signals that causes wavy lines. These errors are corrected by Line TBC incorporated into the high end VCR and some DVD recorders (ES10). The other type of error affects vertical sync signals that cause dropped frames. These errors are fixed by external TBC who have frame synchronizer. A DVD recorder should have inside at least this type of TBC but some don`t have even this type of TBC. The line TBC found in Panasonic and JVC vcr don`t heal vertical synch..
    I don't know that I agree with this.
    On the other hand, I don't know that I can disagree with it either.

    I read a quote like that and the first thing I think is "aw hell" because it's going to take some deep though to fully process it.

    For starters, I always get my directions messed up, vertical vs horizontal. (Why? Well, it's not because I'm stupid. It's not the same as not knowing your left from your right. Rather, it's a case where something that appears vertical is measured horizontally, and is therefore considered "horizontal", such as analog resolution. And that causes a traffic jam in my brain, trying to remember what is and is not handled that way.)

    There's "jitter" that moves/wiggles horizontally, and then there are signal imperfections that I don't know that I could assert are only measurable along one axis. These errors can cause the vibrating up/down bounce or jitter of an image, but they can just as easily cause dropped frames and trigger anti-copy detection.

    Note that "jitter" in quotes is a technical term in video, while jitter outside quotes is not. Jargon is fun, huh!?

    The differences between frame syncs and TBCs are often clearer on paper than they are in practice. I'm also not a broadcast engineer, which is what hampers my speed at grasping some of these topics in their more advanced form. I'm an end-user, like most everybody else here, although I try to wrap my head around these complex topics. Unless my memory fails me, Gshelley was a former(retired?) engineer, which is why I always enjoyed our chats.

    That said, some folks may think "well then you don't know what you're talking about". That too, is still not the case! These same discussions are had in pro circles. I've seen similar discussions, found in trade magazines like Broadcast Engineering. SignVideo even has some articles on this topic. Even the engineers can't agree on definitions, because the topic is so muddied in how the things are implemented (and/or merged into single processes).

    I argued with davideck for years on trying to pin down a definition, but I had to give up. I simply do not feel comfortable trying to define these things anymore. The best that can be done is empirical analysis of the types of devices that exist, and then base definitions off of that research data. That's the best I can come up with. Trying to define "TBC" and "frame sync" was about 5-6 years of effort that had no outcome. I've probably owned or had access to 50+ pieces of hardware, in the vain search for definitions, with many failed experiments and re-written hypotheses. As often as you can say "a TBC does this", you'll find a handful of "TBCs" that won't do that. Same for the frame sync.

    Based on what I see, to call the device inside a DVD recorder a "TBC" is a bit of a stretch. That's my opinion on the matter, you're free to disagree. However, you'll find it hard to create a definition for "TBC" when few of them seem to act alike.

    Some of my travels on this topic are found on this site's restoration forum, as well as the digitalFAQ restoration forum.

    I don't even want to get into AGC. When AGC leaks into TBC discussions, I tend to run away. Too much crap in one place.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 15th Apr 2010 at 10:22. Reason: typos
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  22. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    In due time. I don't think you realize how much research has to go into this.
    I also would not say anything I've said is "vague" or "general" -- I cover very distinct aspects of what the devices have failed or passed at doing, once the video is released by the TBC/sync.

    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Since you can get them for US$35 (US$50 delivered) why don't you just buy one and find out?
    ES10, yes, buy one.
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  23. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Yeah, but I've gone over that before: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/alternative-avt-8710-1853.html?p=9889#post9889
    I could write "Ferrari" on the side of a station wagon, but it's not necessarily accurate.
    Agreed, but it at least indicates perhaps it has TBC "qualities" and it's worth asking people if they have any experience to confirm.

    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Since you can get them for US$35 (US$50 delivered) why don't you just buy one and find out?
    I don't see any decent machines selling for that on ebay these days. To get one with a remote, it's more like $75-90 delivered. And at this point, I'm trying to do this without going out and spending good money for something that may or may not be what I need (I spent alot of money doing this a few years ago just for testing purposes - want to avoid a repeat). As far as an ES10 goes, it sounds like it does a wonderful job of aligning the scan lines, but if it's screwing up the picture in other ways as some say that it does, then I'd prefer not to spend the money on it, although I'd like some visual evidence that I can judge for myself.

    Me, too. That way I can make my own judgments. If I've discovered anything through posting on forums over the years, it's that people's opinions of something don't always coincide with my own, even when we are looking at the same thing.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    In due time. I don't think you realize how much research has to go into this.
    I also would not say anything I've said is "vague" or "general" -- I cover very distinct aspects of what the devices have failed or passed at doing, once the video is released by the TBC/sync.
    LS, I look forward to any results you can post.
    Last edited by BrainStorm69; 15th Apr 2010 at 13:38.
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    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    I don't know if anyone has any experience with the Toshiba D-R4, but under the "Detailed Specs" tab on this page, it mentions "Time Base Correction" as one of the features of the D-R4.

    http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=d-r4
    Definitely no tbc or tbc like features in that, in fact as a pass through it made my results appear more darker than they are.
    Last edited by deuce8pro; 15th Apr 2010 at 13:56.
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  25. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by davideck View Post
    BrainStorm69 - Are you looking to replace your AG-1980?
    Actually, I'm looking to avoid replacing it.
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  26. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by deuce8pro View Post
    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    I don't know if anyone has any experience with the Toshiba D-R4, but under the "Detailed Specs" tab on this page, it mentions "Time Base Correction" as one of the features of the D-R4.

    http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=d-r4
    Definitely no tbc or tbc like features in that, in fact as a pass through it made my results appear more darker than they are.
    duece8pro, thanks for your input. So it didn't straighten distortions (waviness) caused by the misalignment of horizontal scan lines? Bummer. And it sounds like it caused other visual issues. That's good input, because that's exactly what I don't want to do if possible - fix one problem just to have to fix another "side effect."
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    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    As far as an ES10 goes, it sounds like it does a wonderful job of aligning the scan lines, but if it's screwing up the picture in other ways as some say that it does, then I'd prefer not to spend the money on it, although
    I really dont think it screws with the picture at all. I think turning the TBC/DNR On using one of those JVC SVHS could screw with the picture more on some tapes than turning the Line NR on using the ES10. For $35, you cant beat that.
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  28. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by deuce8pro View Post
    I really dont think it screws with the picture at all. I think turning the TBC/DNR On using one of those JVC SVHS could screw with the picture more on some tapes than turning the Line NR on using the ES10. For $35, you cant beat that.
    Unfortunately, as I mention above, I haven't seen one sell for that cheap on ebay lately. Any possibility that you could post some screen caps of the same frame of some captured video, one straight to your capture device, and one with no other change except putting the ES10 in the capture chain? That would be quite helpful.
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    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    Originally Posted by deuce8pro View Post
    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    I don't know if anyone has any experience with the Toshiba D-R4, but under the "Detailed Specs" tab on this page, it mentions "Time Base Correction" as one of the features of the D-R4.

    http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=d-r4
    Definitely no tbc or tbc like features in that, in fact as a pass through it made my results appear more darker than they are.
    duece8pro, thanks for your input. So it didn't straighten distortions (waviness) caused by the misalignment of horizontal scan lines? Bummer. And it sounds like it caused other visual issues. That's good input, because that's exactly what I don't want to do if possible - fix one problem just to have to fix another "side effect."
    Actually now that ive thought about it, I do think the Toshiba DR4 corrected some of the wavyness on vhs tapes, but the truth is you never know if its gonna correct the problem you have until you use those pieces of equipment.
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    Panasonic ES10 A>D "losses":
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/206036-Panasonic-DMR-ES10-tests

    Note:
    First pictures from first post are crap (PowerDVD sceenshots). Go to 11 post to see the real analogue to digital performance.
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