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  1. Member
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    Hmm, right you are. But I think that is not an effect of the DVD recorder, I was just doing other stuff on the computer at the same time so the capture probably stuttered a bit because of that. I have now captured the entire tape from the beginning (wanted to test on that shaky footage first), and checked that particular spot, there isn't a glitch like that in this new capture.
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  2. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    With the tapes I've tried, the Toshiba D-R410 offers the same level of line correction as the DMR-ES15. Nice to see that's still available in a 2008 model. It seems to provide continuous sync, as when it encounters a total input drop it resorts to showing a blue screen.

    The lowest resolution it outputs via HDMI is 480p, but the original fields can be chosen from this capture to create a 480i video. For some reason it refuses to offer me the option of outputting YCbCr to my capture card, so I'm forced into an RGB -> 4:2:2 conversion.

    VC500
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    D-R410 -> VC500
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    D-R410 -> HDMI 480p + AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).We ave().ColorYUV(off_y=0,gain_y=-16)
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    However... similar to the LG recorder I recently posted about, it features spatial noise reduction that can't be disabled (lower strength mind you), and I experienced AGC issues. This time, the AG-1970P triggered it while the Sony SLV-585HF (CVBS input) was smooth sailing.

    Video samples are compressed with Ut Video Codec.
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  3. At jagabo's suggestion, I put a Panasonic DMR-EH58 DVD+HDD recorder between a cheap Sony SLV-EZ725 VCR and the Hauppauge USB-Live2 to try and improve a composite PAL capture that was made almost unwatchable by (presumably) time based errors. Worked perfectly. For my needs at least.

    I don't have the skills to analyse the efficacy of the EH58 as a line TBC to the standards presented in this thread, sorry.
    Last edited by Fatteh; 9th May 2014 at 05:18.
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  4. Member
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    Originally Posted by Fatteh View Post
    I don't have the skills to analyse the efficacy of the EH58 as a line TBC to the standards presented in this thread, sorry.
    Please provide some before and after images at least, those are already worth more than 2000 words
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  5. Originally Posted by ajk View Post
    Please provide some before and after images at least, those are already worth more than 2000 words
    For sure.

    First minute or so of original video captured directly from the Sony VCR with USB-Live2 and WinTV v7 over composite (warning again: explicit language in soundtrack): https://vimeo.com/94646184

    Full video with the DMR-EH58 inserted between the VCR and USB-Live2 via composite. Noise reduction turned off in the EH58. All other settings the same: https://vimeo.com/94499440
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    Significant improvement indeed, I'm sure that would work for most peoples' needs. Thanks for reporting back
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  7. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    From what I've seen, the DMR-ES25 has equivalent line TBC performance to the DMR-ES15. But when a VHS signal is particularly bright, both clip white peaks.

    The ES15 appears to offer a tiny bit more headroom than the ES25 (assuming this is repeatable and not just a one-off AGC quirk). On the other hand, the ES25 offers the small benefit of HDMI output (eliminating a D-A-D step).

    The HDMI capture has been reinterlaced from 480p. The two DMR-ES25 captures were done at the same time; all others were done while replaying the tape at different times.

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    --- BORING NOTES FOLLOW ---

    Partial Avisynth scripts used are below. There were some field oddities that I had to correct for the sake of keeping all 5 sources synchronized to each other. The Panasonic captures are all consistent with one another, but comparing the Panasonic group vs the other two captures: the -DNR&TBC direct capture is missing field 3021, the Panasonic group duplicates fields 3017 & 3018 and is missing field 3019, and the +DNR&TBC direct capture is missing field 3022. The Panasonic group also has brief vertical anomalies around the same time; these are corrected by the script but without it there is a little added jumpiness.

    All of this field weirdness is confined to the first 12 fields after one recording ended and the start of the next recording, so it isn't particularly noticeable in viewing. But in each case, VirtualDub reported no dropped (or inserted) frames in this area.

    -DNR&TBC <YC> Diamond VC500
    Code:
    AssumeTFF.SeparateFields()
    
    Trim(0,3020)+Blackness(last,1)+Trim(3021,0) #One field missing; present in Panasonic captures, and this is a different missing field than +DNR&TBC capture... Doubly confusing!
    Weave()
    -DNR&TBC <YC> Panasonic DMR-ES15 <YC> Diamond VC500
    Code:
    ColorYUV(off_y=4,gain_y=-28)
    
    AssumeTFF.SeparateFields()
    Separated = last
    
    Separated
    Trim(0,3011)+Interleave(Trim(3012,0).SelectEven().Crop(0,1,-0,-0).AddBorders(0,0,0,1),Trim(3012,0).SelectOdd().Crop(0,0,-0,-1).AddBorders(0,1,0,0))
    DeleteFrame(3019,3020) #Duplicates of fields 3017/3018. Have to delete individually since they are split across two frames.
    Trim(0,3018)+Blackness(last,1) #One field missing; present in VC500 direct captures.
    Fix1 = last
    
    Fix1+Separated.Trim(3021,0)
    Weave()
    -DNR&TBC <YC> Panasonic DMR-ES25 <YC> Diamond VC500
    Code:
    ColorYUV(off_y=4,gain_y=-23)
    
    [same "Panasonic Fix" block as above]
    -DNR&TBC <YC> Panasonic DMR-ES25 <HDMI> AVerMedia C127
    Code:
    AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()
    ColorYUV(off_y=8,gain_y=-48)
    
    [same "Panasonic Fix" block as above]
    +DNR&TBC <YC> Diamond VC500
    Code:
    AssumeTFF.SeparateFields()
    
    Trim(0,3021)+Blackness(last,1)+Trim(3022,0) #One field missing; present in Panasonic captures, and this is a different missing field than -DNR&TBC capture...
    Weave()
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  8. Is that clipping caused by the DVD/TBC?
    Is it digitalizing the image and sending it through HDMI (DVD with HDMI port?), and also S-video (reconversion to analogue?).

    Okay noticed you wrote that above the images -_-

    But damn that Noise reduction is visible, compared to the DVD which looks pretty much the same.
    Last edited by zerowalker; 24th Aug 2014 at 15:10.
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  9. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    Yes; the NR settings on the DVD recorders are turned off since they do more harm than good.

    I forgot to mention, these captures were done using the "IN2" front inputs of the ES15 and ES25. Some other folks have said that their ES15 doesn't do line correction for the front connections. Dunno how to explain that one.
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  10. I meant the noise reduction on Chroma with TBC+3DNR (or whatever it has).
    It looks like butter compared to the original source and DVDs.

    Luma however, really sad that it's clipping so hard, truly a deal breaker if you ask me, as you got no way to get the colors back.
    I am the DVD is amplifying the signal way higher than what it's supposed to, so it will clip when converting to Digital.

    Only solution for that as far as i know would be to De-Amplify(?) before inputing into the DVD.
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  11. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    Came across a 2014 AVSForum post with some observations regarding Panasonic models.

    Originally Posted by FFVT
    I would disagree that 2-hour mode of a DVD recorder is "better" than VHS, on an EZ-17. Maybe with an ES-10, ES-15, or ES-25, which, in my experience, act as somewhat of a TBC, which helps jitter and tearing. They don't have true TBC, but they do definitely help. My ES-20, EZ-28, and EZ-48 don't have the same filters as an ES-10, ES-15, or ES-25, from what I can tell.
    He seems like a trustworthy source:
    1. His finding regarding the odd-man-out DMR-ES20 confirms what BrainStorm69 and sanlyn have said based on using it.
    2. Of course, everyone agrees that the ES10 and ES15 can correct jitter and tearing.
    3. My own usage of the ES25, and samples I've posted, indicate that it's on the same level as the two ES15s I have owned.
    There are plenty of posts saying that the later models aren't as good as ES15, which is wrong in the case of the ES25. So here is some confirmation regarding two EZ models from someone who has used DVD recorders to transfer VHS as a profession for years.

    Old post regarding the ES20, for reference:
    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    As you can see from the attached images, the ES20 doesn't have much, if any, ability to straighten wavy lines caused by scanline misalignment. BTW, this was through the back inputs, for those who have seen posts saying the ES20 TBC functionality is only through the inputs on the back.

    Image
    [Attachment 1625 - Click to enlarge]


    From JVC 9900 with TBC off

    Image
    [Attachment 1626 - Click to enlarge]


    From JVC 9900 TBC off, passed through ES20

    Not anything like what the JVC TBC can do, or what I believe I have seen evidenced from the ES10 and ES15. A large disappointment.
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