Who uses a DVD recorder as a line TBC, and what do you use?

[2Bdecided]

I don't see anything very wrong there - a slight level issue (but most VHS will have worse ), and a slight loss of high frequencies (but any VHS and even S-VHS will have no such high frequencies to start with). Does the ES10 do worse with motion or something? What is supposed to be objectionable in loop through mode?

(I have one - dirt cheap from eBay UK - haven't had chance to try it yet!)

Cheers,
David.

[lordsmurf]

Yes, it's the motion.

[jagabo]

Note that all those samples were from DVD recordings made on the ES10. I saw no analysis of ES10 used simply as a TBC.

I posted a sample of the ES15's (borrowed for a few days) ability to fix horizontal time base stability problems:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/306272-Computer-video-capture-vs-vcr-to-dvd-combo?p...=1#post1882662

[BrainStorm69]

Note that all those samples were from DVD recordings made on the ES10. I saw no analysis of ES10 used simply as a TBC.

I posted a sample of the ES15's (borrowed for a few days) ability to fix horizontal time base stability problems:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/306272-Computer-video-capture-vs-vcr-to-dvd-combo?p...=1#post1882662

That was my problem with that thread...it was all samples of DVD recordings made with the ES10. No use of the ES10 as a pass-through device. So not dispositive of the pass-through question. jagabo, your ES15 thread was helpful to show that the ES15 straightens the waviness, but would have also been nice to see how it worked on (or affected) a more representative image of a capture of movie scene, for instance, since it is at least alleged to do bad things to addition to the good thing (straightening the time base errors causing waviness).

[jagabo]

jagabo, your ES15 thread was helpful to show that the ES15 straightens the waviness, but would have also been nice to see how it worked on (or affected) a more representative image of a capture of movie scene, for instance.

Unfortunately, I didn't save any other footage and wasn't looking closely at other details. If I get a chance to play with it again I'll post some samples.

[BrainStorm69]

Just to post the proof that my Pioneer DVR-220 doesn't do all that much for waviness caused by horizontal scanline time base error, here are two screen caps of an old favorite for this test.





Philips VR988 S-VHS VCR straight to capture card.



Philips VR988 S-VHS VCR pass-through Pioneer DVR-220

As you can see, the Pioneer used as a pass-through device at least moves the waviness a bit...maybe corrects it a bit...maybe causes some of its own...but definitely does not correct it like a JVC VCR with a built-in TBC.

And just to drag out an old thread somewhat related to this...if you want more examples of what the JVC's TBC can do as well as some others...check out this old thread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/230650-Confused-Why-a-VCR-with-TBC-if-separate-TBC-...?highlight=TBC

[danno78]

ES15 passthrough performance:
Footage source with lot of motion: MiniDV tape recorded by Sony VX2100 (handheld)
Playback camcorder: Sony TRV33E
S-video connection with regular cables
Capture card: ATI Theater 550 and HuffYUV compression

LE: Noise Reduction = Off

http://www.mediafire.com/?yommhyhylmz

LS exaggerate side effects made by ES10 in passthrough mode. I assure you that the losses caused by ES15 are significantly smaller that those caused by DataVideo TBC.

I think I was right. For an easy comparison I put there the DV source file.

[lordsmurf]

You need to use VHS tapes for the tests. It does make a difference. Start from degraded average source, not cherry-picked high-end sources, for these comparisons.

I wish I had time to do it myself. Maybe in another month or two I can.

[jagabo]

Nice post, danno.

name1="_dv_T550.avi"
name2="_dv_ES15_T550.avi"

v1 = AviSource(name1).ConvertToRGB(matrix="PC.601").Bil inearResize(2880,576).Crop(3,0,-0,-0).AddBorders(0,0,3,0).BilinearResize(720,576)
v2 = AviSource(name2).ConvertToRGB(matrix="PC.601")
sub = v1.subtract(v2)
substrong = sub.levels(112,1,144,0,255)

StackVertical(StackHorizontal(v1.subtitle(name1),v 2.subtitle(name2)),StackHorizontal(sub.subtitle("D ifference"),substrong.subtitle("Difference amplified 8x"))).BicubicResize(720,576)

To get the two videos to align better I shifted the ES15 frame to the left a bit. As you can see, to do that I enlarged the frame horizontally by 4x, shifted the frame left by 3 pixels, then reduced the frame back to its original size. Shifting horizontally by an odd number of pixels requires RGB in AviSynth. I also thought it would be better to display in RGB without the usual rec.601 contrast stretch to prevent the crushing of blacker-than-black and whiter-than-white. I reduced the final output to 720x576 to make a smaller image for upload. The script is provided if you want to see the comparison at normal size.

[BrainStorm69]

Looks pretty transparent, although I don't have time to look at it in detail...



No-passthrough



Pass-through ES15

[lordsmurf]

Try it with a video that has lots of shadows, and is standard mis-IRE VHS source (muddy grays instead of true blacks). You'll understand more.

[jagabo]

Try it with a video that has lots of shadows, and is standard mis-IRE VHS source (muddy grays instead of true blacks).

If the ES15 uses a dynamic noise reducer, one that kicks in only with noisy video, that would explain why VHS sources would do worse than the DV sample provided by danno78. I'd like to see some proof...

[danno78]

I forgot to mention that NR was off. Manual explanation regarding NR.

[BrainStorm69]

Try it with a video that has lots of shadows, and is standard mis-IRE VHS source (muddy grays instead of true blacks). You'll understand more.

Is it possible that this is different than what you expect because it's the ES15 instead of the ES10? Your Fatal Flaws List (https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/205693-DVD-recorders-FATAL-FLAWS-LIST!) indicates that the ES10 and ES15 should have different flaws. Is the ES15 better or worse than the ES10 when used as a pass-through line TBC?

@jagabo - I am really impressed with your Avisynth skills. Even though I don't understand exactly what your script is doing line by line, it looks like an interesting way to see what anything in your capture chain does to the signal.

[jagabo]

I picked up the basic comparison script in a post here at VideoHelp several years ago. I tailored it a bit to compare these two videos.

The meat of the comparison script was "sub = v1.subtract(v2)". That subtracts each pixel of v2 from v1 and adds 128. When the two images are identical you get a flat medium gray screen. Any differences between the tow images show up as details in that flat gray image -- places that are brighter or darker than 128.

The "substrong = sub.levels(112,1,144,0,255)" just contrast stretches those differences 8 fold.

You can see that the purple shawl has a very minor green shift, and there are a few other small differences in intensity and colors elsewhere. But the differences are far less than the errors in your typical VHS recording and/or capture device so they aren't worth worrying about.

[lordsmurf]

B69, I don't see the info you refer to. The ES10-ES25 models should all be comparable, built from mostly the same parts. Don't confuse the early "E" series with the middle gen "ES" series, or the current EZ/EA series.

All these great folks together in one thread, but I don't have enough time for testing and "proof" and samples right now. Sorry guys, give me a couple of months, and I'll see what I can fit around the schedule. It's that time of year (for me).

[BrainStorm69]

LS - Ahhh...so the E series is the one that had the IRE problem, and the ES series (ES10, ES20, ES15, and ES25) overcorrected for the problem causing some green shift, but all of those units should be about the same IQ-wise? If so, yes I was confused.

jagabo - I may have to try that myself to see what my TBCs (TBC-3000 and IVT-7 do to the picture). It looks like the hard part is making sure the images line up correctly. So in the case of the ES15, you shifted the image by 3/4 of a pixel? Can the resizing do that without introducing any artifacts?

[jagabo]

It looks like the hard part is making sure the images line up correctly.

Yes.

So in the case of the ES15, you shifted the image by 3/4 of a pixel?

Yes.

Can the resizing do that without introducing any artifacts?

No. Bilinear gives the least artifacts in AviSynth.

For color shift and levels testing I would recommend you use test patterns with large patches of solid color. That way it doesn't matter if the image is shifted a bit.

[BrainStorm69]

It looks like the hard part is making sure the images line up correctly.

Yes.

So in the case of the ES15, you shifted the image by 3/4 of a pixel?

Yes.

Can the resizing do that without introducing any artifacts?

No. Bilinear gives the least artifacts in AviSynth.

For color shift and levels testing I would recommend you use test patterns with large patches of solid color. That way it doesn't matter if the image is shifted a bit.

Thanks for the answers. And your suggestion about test patterns sounds like a good, simple idea. Thanks.

[deuce8pro]

Although I see some of you guys at other places too (duece8, 2B), it's nice to see the "old gang" in a single thread. It's been years.

[deuce8pro]

I really dont think it screws with the picture at all. I think turning the TBC/DNR On using one of those JVC SVHS could screw with the picture more on some tapes than turning the Line NR on using the ES10. For $35, you cant beat that.

Unfortunately, as I mention above, I haven't seen one sell for that cheap on ebay lately. Any possibility that you could post some screen caps of the same frame of some captured video, one straight to your capture device, and one with no other change except putting the ES10 in the capture chain? That would be quite helpful.

Ill see what I can do.

[lordsmurf]

Early E series had IRE issues.

Latter E series "fixed" it by what appears to be shifts to luma (which adds green hues to image).

ES series still doesn't look to have perfect IRE or luma, but it's better than the E series. Not that I expect perfect IRE anyway, but I do expect good luma!

ES uses LSI Logic chipsets, but they're not used very well (720x480 4-hour, etc), and NR appears overly strong, even when supposedly turned off. More than JVC LSI, too. You can see color palette compression and oddities in the motion.

The ES series had a unique processor for sync/TBC-like functions. There's actually a special in-house name for it, but I always forget. It was in early ES10 product docs, but disappeared later on. The name was an obvious euphemism for "like a TBC, but not a TBC". It's in my notes somewhere, but I have thousands of papers and files, need to get more organized. (Making progress on it, but still some "lost" things, and this is one of them.) This was the only reason to get an ES10, because it did a good job at fixing that specific nuisance error.

EZ/EA is the current series, another mediocre product.

I consider these all "SP mode" machines, for average consumer quality, best used for recording TV and never for transferring tapes.

I've had an E80 and ES10 for what seems like forever now. The E80 is MIA in a box in storage, while the ES10 is here and used regularly. I noticed these things from use, tested them to verify what I was seeing, and then tested many other models just for fun.

The tests were sound, and those were my findings. Other people had the same conclusions. If you want to re-test, and somehow end up with different results, then it's not necessarily a case that either of us are wrong. There's so many variables with some of these decks, because they shift parts and production lines between the first and last units made.

Panasonic is a big company, makes many things -- some are good, some are not. Their DVD recorders are mostly crap.

[jagabo]

I have a Panasonic ES15 in my hands for a few days. I made a test pattern video (MPEG2) with all 256 possible luma shades. I'm playing these on a Philips DVP 5990 and capturing with a Hauppauge PVR-250. I'm bypassing the MPEG2 encoder on the PVR-250 by using a GraphEdit graph and capturing from the Preview pin. I "calibrated"* the PVR-250 so that Y=16 and Y=235 in the source video are captured at Y=~16 and Y=~235 in the caps. The following images are converted from YUY2 to RGB with AviSynth's ConvertToRGB(matrix="PC.601") so that the luma values don't get stretched. I'm using the VideoScope() filter in AviSynth to show the luma levels. I'm using composite cables because I'll be comparing to a cheap VHS deck later.

The source MPEG2 video:

[Attachment 1409 - Click to enlarge]

Captured directly from the DVD player to the PVR-250:

[Attachment 1410 - Click to enlarge]
Either the DVD player isn't putting out blacks below IRE 0 or the PVR-250 can't capture below IRE 0.

Captured with the ES15 between the DVD player and the PVR-250:

[Attachment 1411 - Click to enlarge]

I'll post more samples, including VHS, as time permits.

* I put calibrated in quotes because I have no way of knowing if the DVP-5990's output is to spec. I'm just setting the PVR-250 up so that the levels in the captured video match the source video.

[jagabo]

I forgot to mention that NR was off. Manual explanation regarding NR.

Danno78, Where's that NR setting. I didn't see it in the ES15 menus.

[BrainStorm69]

According to page 26 of the manual (http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/DMRES15-MULTI.PDF), it appears to be in the "video menu"-"change picture quality." There appears to be a separate setting for both output DNR and Line-in DNR.

BTW, your links above are not working. Gives the error message "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

[danno78]

I forgot to mention that NR was off. Manual explanation regarding NR.

Danno78, Where's that NR setting. I didn't see it in the ES15 menus.

Select a AV3 or other AV input and then press "Display" from remote (the lower side).

[danno78]

ES uses LSI Logic chipsets, but they're not used very well (720x480 4-hour, etc), and NR appears overly strong, even when supposedly turned off. More than JVC LSI, too. You can see color palette compression and oddities in the motion.

LS, ES10 and ES15 use Matsushita chips, ES20 use LSI chip...

[jagabo]

I forgot to mention that NR was off. Manual explanation regarding NR.

Danno78, Where's that NR setting. I didn't see it in the ES15 menus.

Select a AV3 or other AV input and then press "Display" from remote (the lower side).

Thanks. I was looking through the Setup menus. The recording I made above were with NR in Auto mode. I'm guessing NR didn't kick in since I was using a fairly clean source. I'll check later today.

[danno78]

I have made another test, this time with NR=ON.
http://www.mediafire.com/?z2ghy2nywz2

[BrainStorm69]

Not to be Captain Obvious, but it looks cleaner with NR off.

I wonder what the difference between the the units using the Matsushita chip and the LSI chip looks like. If LS is right about the LSI implementation being bad, perhaps it's better to have an ES10 or ES15 than the ES20 or ES25. Anyone have an ES20 or ES25 to try this with?