Question about either of my Sony drives being able to burn dual layer discs

[Puppets86]

I have to burn a copy of a store bought dvd that is out of balance and making my player vibrate(been replaced once already), but it needs to be done on a dual layer disc, but a friend said not all burners can do it. I have a Sony CRX320E, and a Sony DRU-820A. If anyone can tell me if either of theses will do the job, I'd sure appreciate it. If not, please recommend a not too expensive drive that will, or maybe a program that can do it another way??? First time I've ever used dual layer, so that's why I ask. Obviously there is no telling how many of this dvd got shipped out of balance, so continuing to exchange it could be endless, so I did a test copy, but only the partial dvd, as I didn't have enough room, and the test copy didn't make the drive vibrate, so that points to an out of balance disc, hands down. Oh, a friend says he always uses Sony dual layer, but looking around here, it seems Verbatim is considered one of the best, so should I just stick with that, or is Sony o.k. too? Thanks, in advance!

[fritzi93]

The Sony CRX320E appears to be a combo drive, it can burn CDs and read *only* for DVDs. Your Sony DRU-820A is capable of writing dual-layer DVDRs.

For best results, use Verbatim DVD+R-DL discs and burn them with ImgBurn. If you deviate from this, it's a crapshoot, seriously.

Good luck.

[Puppets86]

Thanks for the help! Guess I could have just looked up my drives and found out what they do or don't do.

My other question is regarding the write speed for that drive. It says DVD write speed: 48x (CD) / 16x (DVD±R) / 4x (DVD-R DL) / 8x (DVD+R DL)
What is the difference between DVD-R DL, and DVD+R DL ? Hate to ask that, but I simply don't know.

I was just going to get these http://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-2-4x-Double-Layer-DVD-DL/dp/B000B018VO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UT...0762391&sr=8-2

Or could I use these as well http://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-95311-8x-10x-Double-Recordable/dp/B000F0ELOG/ref=sr_1_8...0770602&sr=1-8
they say up to 10x, so I'm assuming these will be o.k. too?

Also, anything else I need to know about making a copy on a dual layer disc, that's different than doing it with a standard disc. I'm assuming, using ImbBurn, that I simply create an image file form the original dvd to my computer, then simply write that image to the new (dual layer)dvd, yes?

[jman98]

I prefer to use PgcEdit to create image files. Why? I have no idea if ImgBurn puts the BUPs and IFOs in a different block or not and I know that PgcEdit does. Why would you care about that?
http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/pgcedit_guide/burning_with_pgcedit/burning_with...pgcedit_v2.htm
(read the explanation at the bottom of the link)

If you don't put the BUPs and IFOs in different blocks, you have destroyed the entire reason that BUPs exist. BUPs are backups of IFOs and they get read if an IFO is corrupted. Basically it could keep your DVD playable even though the IFO is gone.

[fritzi93]

I've used both types of Verbatims linked above, no problem. I should think either would be okay, but maybe someone with your specific burner would care to comment. Burner models can be idiosyncratic as to what media works best in them. Oh, and for DVD-Video, you want DVD+R-DL discs, not -R.

Your burner is no longer sold, therefore the firmware may be out of date for newer media. OTOH, I'm fairly sure both Verbatims in your links have been around for quite a while, the 2.4x especially. Personally, I'd get those as the better deal.

As to burn speed, the 2.4x discs are good at the rated speed. For the 10x discs, I always burned them at 4x with complete success. I can only recall making two DL coasters, both were the result of operator error.

Good luck.

[Puppets86]

I prefer to use PgcEdit to create image files. Why? I have no idea if ImgBurn puts the BUPs and IFOs in a different block or not and I know that PgcEdit does. Why would you care about that?
http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/pgcedit_guide/burning_with_pgcedit/burning_with...pgcedit_v2.htm
(read the explanation at the bottom of the link)

If you don't put the BUPs and IFOs in different blocks, you have destroyed the entire reason that BUPs exist. BUPs are backups of IFOs and they get read if an IFO is corrupted. Basically it could keep your DVD playable even though the IFO is gone.

Thanks! I'll check that out as well.

[Puppets86]

I've used both types of Verbatims linked above, no problem. I should think either would be okay, but maybe someone with your specific burner would care to comment. Burner models can be idiosyncratic as to what media works best in them.

Your burner is no longer sold, therefore the firmware may be out of date for newer media. OTOH, I'm fairly sure both Verbatims in your links have been around for quite a while, the 2.4x especially. Personally, I'd get those as the better deal.

Good luck.

Thanks!

[fritzi93]

In ImgBurn settings under "Build" there's an option for "IFO/BUP 32k Padding". That option should be checked. Actually that setting is default, so no need to worry. I forget when that was introduced, a couple versions ago I think.

AFAIK, you don't need to worry about the layer break either, as ImgBurn will do it for you automatically. But it's been quite a while since I did any DVD-Video, so anyone feel free to comment. Yeah, I'm trying to learn Blu-Ray procedures now.

[Puppets86]

In ImgBurn settings under "Build" there's an option for "IFO/BUP 32k Padding". That option should be checked. Actually that setting is default, so no need to worry. I forget when that was introduced, a couple versions ago I think.

AFAIK, you don't need to worry about the layer break either, as ImgBurn will do it for you automatically. But it's been quite a while since I did any DVD-Video, so anyone feel free to comment. Yeah, I'm trying to learn Blu-Ray procedures now.

Oh o.k. cool........so it sounds like I treat this pretty much like a standard DVD......create the image from the original dvd to my computer, then write it the the disc like a normal dvd, yes? I too would appreciate anyone jumping in with any comments as far as anything different. I have a few days until the discs arrive anyway.Thanks!

[fritzi93]

Before ImgBurn, I burned ISOs of DVD-Video with DVDDecrypter (actually Imgburn was a further development of DVDDecrypter, minus the decryption). For dual-layer discs, I too used the pgcedit method that jman linked to. More particularly, the link on that page for setting the layer break. Here:

http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/dl_burn_guide2/dl_burning_with_pgcedit_v2.htm

It most definitely does the job correctly, but maybe you'd rather not slog through all that if you don't have to.

[Puppets86]

Before ImgBurn, I burned ISOs of DVD-Video with DVDDecrypter (actually Imgburn was a further development of DVDDecrypter, minus the decryption). For dual-layer discs, I too used the pgcedit method that jman linked to. More particularly, the link on that page for setting the layer break. Here:

http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/dl_burn_guide2/dl_burning_with_pgcedit_v2.htm

It most definitely does the job correctly, but maybe you'd rather not slog through all that if you don't have to.

I ordered the 5 pack of the discs, because money is very tight right now, and I only want to make a copy of a 2 dvd set, so I have 3 chances to screw up, and still be o.k. so maybe I'll give this a try. It sounds a bit overwhelming, but I'm sure it's because I've never done it. I'm sure If I take my time and follow that guide, I'll be o.k.
Would it come out exactly the same with ImgBurn though?

Also, correct me If I'm wrong, but in step one here http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/pgcedit_guide/burning_with_pgcedit/burning_with...pgcedit_v2.htm
it says to browse to the folder containing your DVD files, so in my case, I'd be going to the original dvd for the files, since that is what I'm making a copy of, yes? Just making sure I'm on the right page with this.

[fritzi93]

Just a clarification: it's my understanding that with DVD-R-DL, it's not possible to set the layer break correctly on a scene break. The first layer is written to capacity, then the second layer is written. So that's why you need DVD+R-DL.

I'll venture a guess that there are hundreds of members here who regularly burn DVD-Video to dual-layer discs, and have never even heard of the pgcedit method of setting layer break. They just let ImgBurn handle it automatically.

Again, I wish someone else would comment, since I may have forgotten something.

[lordsmurf]

Just a clarification: it's my understanding that with DVD-R-DL, it's not possible to set the layer break correctly on a scene break. The first layer is written to capacity, then the second layer is written. So that's why you need DVD+R-DL.

I'll venture a guess that there are hundreds of members here who regularly burn DVD-Video to dual-layer discs, and have never even heard of the pgcedit method of setting layer break. They just let ImgBurn handle it automatically.

Again, I wish someone else would comment, since I may have forgotten something.

You're good.

[Puppets86]

Just a clarification: it's my understanding that with DVD-R-DL, it's not possible to set the layer break correctly on a scene break. The first layer is written to capacity, then the second layer is written. So that's why you need DVD+R-DL.

I'll venture a guess that there are hundreds of members here who regularly burn DVD-Video to dual-layer discs, and have never even heard of the pgcedit method of setting layer break. They just let ImgBurn handle it automatically.

Again, I wish someone else would comment, since I may have forgotten something.

O.k. thanks again! Since lordsmurf backed up your thoughts, am I correct in assuming that I will simply create the image from the original DVD with ImgBurn, and then simply put a DVD+R-DL disc in, and write that image to the disc, and ImgBurn takes care of everything?

ImgBurn automatically knows to set the layer break in a spot where it won't be detected, yes? Sorry for what probably seems like stupid questions, I just want to try and avoid screwing up any of these discs.

[VegasBud]

Puppets86,

...am I correct in assuming that I will simply create the image from the original DVD with ImgBurn...

Dvds which are "store bought" are almost certain to have (at least) CSS on the original disk. ImgBurn has no ability to deal with any encryption, or other "copy protection" garbage, so you would need to first use a ripping program to get the contents of the original dvd to your hard drive.

Once the source material is on your hard drive, there's no point in making an image file first. ImgBurn works perfectly fine with the VIDEO_TS - AUDIO_TS structure.

ImgBurn automatically knows to set the layer break in a spot where it won't be detected, yes?

No software algorithm can reliably do that. ImgBurn presents you with a list of the possible layer breaks, and you select the best one. Since you've never worked with dual layer before, it might be a good idea to post a screen shot of the layer break choices ImgBurn offers, and see what others think of the choices.

In case you have any simple procedural questions, the author of ImgBurn wrote a guide (available here) which shows all the steps to burning a dual layer disk. If you have any questions, though, don't hesitate to ask before proceeding...nobody likes dual layer coasters.

[Puppets86]

Puppets86,

..am I correct in assuming that I will simply create the image from the original DVD with ImgBurn...

Dvds which are "store bought" are almost certain to have (at least) CSS on the original disk. ImgBurn has no ability to deal with any encryption, or other "copy protection" garbage, so you would need to first use a ripping program to get the contents of the original dvd to your hard drive.

Once the source material is on your hard drive, there's no point in making an image file first. ImgBurn works perfectly fine with the VIDEO_TS - AUDIO_TS structure.

Thanks for your input as well.......much appreciated! This DVD must not have any copy protection, as I already made a partial copy with a regular dvd, using ImgBurn, just to test whether or not the original DVD was out of balance, or the issue was something else. I didn't know I needed more than a standard DVD until the progarm told me I didn't have enough room. Again, I'm only making a copy, so I can watch the DVD without my DVD player vibrating, as the original is an out of balance disc, and it's the second one from Amazon, so obviously they got a bad batch of bad discs, so who knows how many exchanges it would take before I got a good one, so making a copy is an easier solution. The partial copy played without issue, so it proves that is indeed the actual disc. Just wanted to clear that up so no one thinks I'm making copies of a store bought dvd. That being said, I would create the image right from the orignal DVD, yes?

[loster]

Yep you create the image from the dvd with imgburn also IMGBURN would report an error message if you open read mode with a CSS protected dvd without a tool like AnyDVD in the backround.

[Puppets86]

Yep you create the image from the dvd with imgburn also IMGBURN would report an error message if you open read mode with a CSS protected dvd without a tool like AnyDVD in the backround.

O.k., so I simply create the image right from the original dvd, then before I burn it, that's when I have to set the layer break, and things of that nature.

[loster]

If you copy as an image the layer break information should be retained in the image. I think that you need to make sure to select the mds when burning.

[Puppets86]

If you copy as an image the layer break information should be retained in the image. I think that you need to make sure to select the mds when burning.

What is the mds?

[r0lZ]

Just to clarify:

In the past, PgcEdit (using internally mkisofs) was the first program able to set the layer break correctly. (Yes, even Nero at that time had many problems and bugs, especially with double-layer DVDs.)
It was also the sole program that can add much data on layer 1 than on layer 0, using a perfectly legit method.
It was also the first to implement the "32K Gap" method to ensure that the IFO and BUP are in different ECC blocks, thus protecting the DVD a little bit more against scratches.
And finally, it was also the first program to implement the "seamless layer break" technique.
Doing that was only possible with the help of extremely knowledgeable guys at Doom9, and of the author of mkisofs.

When LUK! has abandoned the development of DVD Decrypter and started to write ImgBurn, I've explained the techniques used by PgcEdit to help him implement them in ImgBurn v2.0. So, you can consider the burn function of PgcEdit as some kind of prototype for the methods implemented in ImgBurn. Currently, ImgBurn can do everything that the burn function of PgcEdit can do (using exactly the same methods), and a lot more! For example, LUK! has implemented the right method to burn DL-DVD-Rs. (PgcEdit work well only with DL-DVD+Rs.) One of its obvious advantages over PgcEdit is that it can burn the DVD directly, without the need to write an ISO on disc first. Note also that the PgcEdit backups folders (as well as the backups created by MenuShrink and FixVTS) in VIDEO_TS do not need to be erased when you burn with ImgBurn: ImgBurn ignore them completely. It cohabits therefore extremely well with PgcEdit.

So, I have now completely abandoned the development of the burn function, and I strongly encourage you to use ImgBurn instead. The PgcEdit burn should still work if you install the right version of mkisofs for your version of Windows. (The fast version distributed with PgcEdit has some problems under Vista and Win7.) But there is no advantage in using it now. Anyway, as long as you don't use Nero or one of the many ill written burn program available on the net, your DL-DVDs should be OK!

BTW, for the guys who liked the possibility to launch the burn from PgcEdit, it is easy to install ImgBurn in the PgcEdit's Tools menu. My config is:

- Label: Build with ImgBurn
- Application: C:\Program Files\ImgBurn\ImgBurn.exe
- Arguments: /MODE ISOBUILD /BUILDMODE DEVICE /FILESYSTEM "ISO9660 + UDF" /SRC "%d" /VOLUMELABEL "%l" /IBG "D:\rip\%l.ibg"
- Working folder: %a
- Run application in background is ticked. You can also tick Save DVD before launching application if you wish.

The key is the Arguments field.
Note that the /VOLUMELABEL "%l" argument is necessary only if you want to use the label generated by PgcEdit by default.
/IBG "D:\rip\%l.ibg" is used to generate the IBG file in the D:\rip folder. Of course, you may need to change the output folder. The IBG file is only useful if you have DVDInfo Pro, so feel free to remove that part of the arguments if you don't need the IBG file.

If you want to generate an ISO from PgcEdit, just change the arguments to this:
/MODE BUILD /BUILDMODE IMAGEFILE /DEST "D:\%l.iso" /FILESYSTEM "ISO9660 + UDF" /SRC "%d" /VOLUMELABEL "%l" /CLOSESUCCESS
Again, change %D\ to any valid folder, and remove /VOLUMELABEL "%l" if you wish.
/CLOSESUCCESS is also optional, and instructs ImgBurn to close its window automatically when the ISO has been generated correctly.

The 32K gap flag is not passed on the command line. To turn it ON, enable Tools -> Settings -> Build tab -> DVD-Video frame -> IFO/BUP 32K padding.
The seamless layer break can be turned on in the dialog that appears when you start the burn. Be warned that this technique is not legit, and may cause problems with some standalone players.

[fritzi93]

@ Puppets86:

I got my wish, a clear explanation.

You won't get a more definitive answer than what r0lz just provided. So stop worrying.

[r0lZ]

I forgot to say that the PgcEdit burn function can still be useful for two things:

1. When I strip material to burn a single layer DVD, I like to see if it fits on a DVD-5 from within PgcEdit. That information is displayed in the top of the main burn window. (The information given by File -> Check DVD+/-R size does not take into account the DVD-ROM files that you may have added in your DVD folder, but the information in the burn window does.)

2. I still prefer to examine the best layer break cell in PgcEdit's Layer Break selection dialogue. It offers more information than ImgBurn, and it is especially useful to examine it if you want to use the Seamless Layer Break option. This information is somewhat technical, so most users will probably prefer the ImgBurn way, but PgcEdit is my baby, and I like to have its advice before burning with ImgBurn.
Also, I like the "Preview LB" option in PgcEdit. (It shows you the last seconds of the previous cell and the layer break cell in the preview, with a pause of 2 seconds between the 2 cells, so that you can judge by yourself if the cell is suitable.)
But when I know which cell I want, I close the burn windows, and I launch ImgBurn from within PgcEdit. Usually, ImgBurn pre-selects the right cell for the LB, but sometimes I prefer to change it.

[Puppets86]

@ Puppets86:

I got my wish, a clear explanation.

You won't get a more definitive answer than what r0lz just provided. So stop worrying.

Thanks! And thanks to you r0lz! So, If I'm on the right page with all this, I simpy will just create the image right from the original DVD, and simply write it to the blank DL-DVD+Rs with ImgBurn, yes?

[r0lZ]

Usually, you cannot copy the original DVD directly to an ISO or to a DVD+R for two reasons.

- ImgBurn (and PgcEdit) are nor decrypters. If you burn CSS encoded files, they will be unusable. The problem is even bigger if the DVD has been protected by ARccOS or Ripguard.

- To place the layer break correctly, ImgBurn has to modify the IFO files. Honestly, I don't know if it does it on the fly, or if it writes the modified files to disc before burning them. In the second case (and PgcEdit does that), it is of course impossible to use a read-only media (the original DVD) as the source.

There are other reasons, such as the impossibility to change the position of the layer break. Of course, it will also be impossible to implement some special features offered by ImgBurn, such as the 32K gaps. Burning on the fly produces also usually very bad burns.

However, if your DVD is not protected at all (or if you use a tool to decrypt it on the fly such as AnyDVD), you can copy it, either to an ISO, or directly to the DVD+R (if you have 2 drives). But IMO, it is always better to rip the files on disc first, even if the DVD is not protected and you don't want to modify it at all. Now, you can burn the files ripped from the original DVD directly to DVD+R with ImgBurn, so ripping to an ISO doesn't make much sense imo. Of course, if you still want to build an ISO from your ripped DVD files, you can do it with ImgBurn. When the source files are on your hard disc, the result is exactly identical than burning the same files to DVD-R directly.

My method is to rip the DVD with DVD Decrypter, in File mode. (If it doesn't work, usually I create myself a PSL file for it, but you can use DVDFab HD Decrypter.) Then, I modify the DVD (on disc of course) with PgcEdit, VobBlanker, Menu Shrink, DVD Shrink, DVDSubEdit and so on. Finally, when I am happy, I burn the files to DVD+R with ImgBurn, without passing by an ISO.
I suggest to use the same method, even if you don't want to modify the DVD. Just skip the fun part in the middle!

[Puppets86]

I know this DVD is not protected, as I did a partial copy with ImgBurn. I don't do this a lot, so I told it to create the image right from the original DVD, not really know if that is the correct way, just wanted a copy, to prove the original has an issue with the physical disc itself. Anyway, did that, and when I went to write it to a blank DVD, that's when I found out there wasn't enough room, hence the inquiry about dual layer DVD's. I appreciate your help immensely, but some of what you just posted was a bit overwhelming.....sorry The partial copy I made did play on my computer, and it proved that the vibration I've been getting when playing the original is from the actual disc, because the partial copy played fine, but it wouldn't play on my Oppo player......I'm assuming it's because it wasn't complete???

So, you're saying I should rip it to my computer with DVD Decrypter, and then just burn it with ImgBurn? Hope I got that last part right.

[r0lZ]

Yes, that's what I've said.

It is not surprising that an incomplete DVD doesn't work. What is surprising, is that you have been able to burn it! But if that was sufficient for your test, than it's OK!

[Puppets86]

Yes, that's what I've said.

It is not surprising that an incomplete DVD doesn't work. What is surprising, is that you have been able to burn it! But if that was sufficient for your test, than it's OK!

O.k. thanks again for your help! Anything beyond just simply making a copy of a regular dvd is a little new to me, but I can follow directions.........just some of what you explianed started getting a bit confusing haha! Anything special I need to do when I rip it with DVD decrypter, or just rip it, and write that file, the way it sits to the new disc with ImgBurn, or do I still need to set the layer break and whatnot?

[r0lZ]

If you rip an ISO, you cannot specify the LB position. In file mode, ImgBurn will offer you the choice of some cells (chapters). Usually, it can find the best one automatically. Don't worry!

[Puppets86]

If you rip an ISO, you cannot specify the LB position. In file mode, ImgBurn will offer you the choice of some cells (chapters). Usually, it can find the best one automatically. Don't worry!

O.k., so rip it with dvd decrypter, then just write it with ImgBurn, and everything is done pretty much automatically?
I have 2 drives, but that doesn't do much, as you said it's better to copy it to the hard drive first, correct?