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  1. Hi:

    I'm using Adobe Premiere CS4 and trying to do a chroma key background.
    It's not working.
    The background is light green and lit real well.
    The problem is that Premiere can't seem to remove a green 'film' around my image.
    I've got light behind me lighting the background and light on me.

    I've attached a small clip of the vid:
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  2. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Vegas has no problem with it. I don't have Premiere here.
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Do you mean like the green fringe on the hand?

    try Secondary color correction to deal with spill light.

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    Only minor issues in After Effects, Have you increased the color tolerance?
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  5. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Quick and dirty secondary CK

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  6. Hey thanks for the replies.
    Yea, it's that green fringe.
    I'll try using secondary color correction in Premiere and see what happens.
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  7. Member fitch.j's Avatar
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    I have long hated the Premiere Key for this very reason, when i am forced to key with it i usually end up with about 6 or 7 different keys just to try and pull all the greens out . Everything i can do i'll do with Keylight. With a single key and a choker just to clean it up the results are fairly good, its still rushed though:



    Effectively what you want to do in Premiere is try to work in rings of colour, pull the majority, then move onto a new key with a new colour etc etc (you'll find colours are almost in bands even though it looks like a solid colour), i find you have more control this way and are able to get everything out that you want without losing any of the image which is obviously not acceptable.
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    Last edited by fitch.j; 24th Mar 2010 at 03:08.
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  8. Thanks, that helps.
    Is there a single editor that you prefer?
    I'm getting that keylight is a plugin?
    Is it only for AfterEffects or can it be used in Premiere.

    Honestly, Adobe kind of chaps me, in that I pay over $500.00 for Premiere only to find out that it doesn't seem to be able to do anything on a professional level and all I keep getting as a solution is to buy After Effects, which is also quite expensive.
    It's kind of like paying a company that ripped me off more money to fix the rip off.

    What do you prefer?
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  9. Member fitch.j's Avatar
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    You seem to have the issue with Adobe that a lot of people who have one piece of software have. I personally think that Premiere is a great NLE, but that is what it is, and NLE. If you want do any sort of real image manupulation then you want a compositor, and for that After Effects is top of my (and most people's) list every time. They are totally different pieces of software designed to do totally different things. Newer NLE's are now becoming more and more 'universal' at trying to do things that should really be done by other software, this is making people start to expect them to do more than an NLE needs to. For example some even offer basic motion tracking now.

    If i was giving advice to anyone buying Adobe products i would always suggest the collections. Otherwise you will always feel like you are 'missing out' on something you feel you should have, because working with video will always reqiure using more than what one single piece of software can offer.

    Keylight is a Plugin for After Effects yes. Be warned when looking at plugins as they are also very expensive, with some costing more than After Effects itself! Keylight 1.2 however is bundled with AE CS4.
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  10. Thanks, that clarifies things a bit.
    When you do keying then, your top preference is After Effects & the keylight plug-in that comes with it?
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  11. Member fitch.j's Avatar
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    At the moment thats what i would use yes, Depending on what i was working with there is one of 3 possible workflows i may choose.

    I may edit the video in Premiere first, Drop it into AE to do the keying of the clips that needed it, then export finished. I'd normaly only choose this for very basic edits.

    More often i would indivually key the clips first in AE with their backgrounds making them look exactly as i want them (the background may have been edited previously) and then export and drop them into premiere for the edit.

    Or finally if i'm not really sure of where i'm going with the edit and just want to get them into Premiere, i may key them in AE and export them with a transparent BG and an Alpha Channel, so that i can put what i like behind it in Premiere.

    Hope this helps.
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  12. K, thanks. Yes it helps.
    I think I'll try winging it in Premiere first using multiple keys.
    I'd rather not incur all that expense just yet.

    Thanks again for your help
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  13. Keylight alone is much better than PP's chroma key or color key , but AE has a host of other tools that can help you create better mattes as well.

    I agree with fitch that a suite is the best option. AE is ~$800-1000 alone, but buying the Production Suite for ~$1200-1300 gets you AE, PP, Illustrator, Encore , Soundbooth, Photoshop, Flash. And most people would get at least Photoshop and PP...

    There are still other tips to keep in mind (I'm assuming you're doing this for web)

    1) Don't key native AVCHD footage.

    If you recall our previous discussion, there is a nasty interlaced chroma bug that affects Adobe CS4 (AE included)
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/317547-Need-Help-Encoding-Quality-Web-Vid?p=1965880...=1#post1965880

    Keying is exactly when this becomes especially important, where preserving edge detail is paramount. You'll find yourself choking the matte and losing detail otherwise.

    2) Don't shoot interlaced , if you do, use a high quality deinterlacer before you key. Interlacing has it's own issues with interlaced chroma (separate from Adobe's bug) and is more difficult to key. The chroma information is streched across 2 luma lines in the same field, this makes it much worse than progressive for keying. Low quality deinterlacers leave "stair steppy" edges and are bad for keying. Even AE when separates fields , it leaves artifacts

    3) When shooting interlaced, pay attention to the set design and wardrobe. ie. Don't be wearing a striped shirt - this is one of the worst case scenarios for deinterlacing.
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  14. Hi PoisonDeathRay:

    I've got Web CS3 so I already had Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash, Dreamweaver, etc.
    Yea, it's for the Web.
    I'm using the results of the PreProd.avs file you taught me to use for deinterlacing.
    I just used the native so I could MUX (again, you're teaching a clip of it for here.

    Guess I'll have to lose the striped shirt The strings of course will have to stay.

    Is there anything I can use that's better than Premiere but not expensive like After Effects?
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  15. Originally Posted by MAtkins View Post
    Is there anything I can use that's better than Premiere but not expensive like After Effects?
    Not really

    You can try cinegobs keyer (which is free) , but Keylight that comes bundled with AE truly is heads and shoulders above all other keyers in that price range . I've tried other plugins before too, like primatte, none are as comprehensive or solid at preserving edge detail . (of course, assuming you are using it properly).

    Unfortunately the Web bundle doesn't come with AE, and the Production bundle doesn't come with Dreamweaver... The only one that includes them both is the Master Collection
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  16. What happens if I deinterlace video shot in progressive mode?
    I'm using YadifMod(order=1,mode=0, edeint=NNEDI2(field=1)) per your recommendation.

    It turns out that my camera (Panasonic HDS HS-300) can shoot in 'some semblance' of progressive so I'm not really sure what I'm going to get.
    It shoots in this mode at 24fps though. I'm hoping that won't matter since I'm dropping to 15fps anyway.
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  17. Originally Posted by MAtkins View Post
    What happens if I deinterlace video shot in progressive mode?
    I'm using YadifMod(order=1,mode=0, edeint=NNEDI2(field=1)) per your recommendation.

    It turns out that my camera (Panasonic HDS HS-300) can shoot in 'some semblance' of progressive so I'm not really sure what I'm going to get.
    It shoots in this mode at 24fps though. I'm hoping that won't matter since I'm dropping to 15fps anyway.

    It's still better if you deinterlace video before keying (assuming you use a high quality deinterlacer like TGMC), because you have fewer steppy edges and there are fewer jaggy edges where the key could go bad. Since your end goal is web, it makes even more sense to key the deinterlaced footage

    But this is a separate issue from recording interlaced (and interlaced chroma). In the interlaced scenario, the chroma is spread out and less accurate. The color is more blocky and harder to color key

    Cameras that shoot native progressive have a distinct advantage. I think yours shoots telecined (24p wrapped in 60i stream) and it may still have interlaced chroma, but I would think shooting in that mode would still give better results (you would have to inverse telecine or IVTC, but that would still give better results than deinterlacing interlaced footage)
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  18. Thanks - I was afraid that maybe deinterlacing would hurt vid shot in progressive.
    So, I'll still de-interlace per your suggestion before I do anything else.


    What is TGMC? I'm using YadifMod now, as you suggested in the other thread.
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  19. Originally Posted by MAtkins View Post
    What is TGMC? I'm using YadifMod now, as you suggested in the other thread.
    On most sources, it's better but a lot slower than yadifmod+nnedi2

    http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/TempGaussMC


    Thanks - I was afraid that maybe deinterlacing would hurt vid shot in progressive.
    It does. You would inverse telecine, not deinterlace it , if you shot 24p in 60i. If you shot 24pN (native), then no special treatment (i don't think your model has that capability)

    Another benefit of shooting your fake 24p (24p in 60i), is that it would be a lot faster to process to IVTC it than using one of the superslow deinterlacers on interlaced footage
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 24th Mar 2010 at 13:27.
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  20. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MAtkins View Post
    Hey thanks for the replies.
    Yea, it's that green fringe.
    I'll try using secondary color correction in Premiere and see what happens.
    The idea of using secondary color correction on the foreground layer is to subtract one particular color (the greenish spill) from the foreground layer. In the example above I didn't have it set optimally.
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  21. I'm working toward getting TempGaussMC installed.
    I'm looking at RemoveGrain. Do you know what RemoveGrain & Repair dlls I need to copy to the Avisynth plugins folder?
    Also, do I need to copy any of them to the Windows System directory?
    Again, I'm running Windows 7 64 bit.
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  22. ooh, I'm looking at the TempGaussMC script - daunting even for a programmer.
    How do I use this in my avisynth script? Help!
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  23. poisondeathray you're *extremely* paitient!

    I found it:

    Quote by you:
    ------------------------------
    Download the "TempGaussMC_beta1.avsi" and put it into the avisynth/plugins directory (the avsi makes it autoloading)

    Make sure you deinterlace BEFORE resizing, the order is crucial

    Just add this to the script

    TempGaussMC_beta1()
    -----------------------------------------

    Does this look right?

    <script>
    LoadPlugin("c:\Program Files (x86)\Avisynth 2.5\plugins\yadifmod.dll")
    LoadPlugin("c:\Program Files (x86)\Avisynth 2.5\plugins\nnedi2.dll")
    #AVISource("c:\Vids\AMajorOpen.avi")#
    #DirectShowSource("c:\Vids\20100303_070409.m2ts")#
    DirectShowSource("c:\Vids\FromCamera\Test1.MTS",fp s=29.97, audio=true)
    AssumeFPS(30000,1001)

    #YadifMod(order=1,mode=0, edeint=NNEDI2(field=1))
    TempGaussMC_beta1()
    LanczosResize(848,480)
    #info()
    </script>
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  24. That looks ok. You can use the TempGaussMC_Beta1Mod() version which has a part of the filter multithreaded (slightly faster)

    It is a bobber, so it returns the full temporal resolution for your 60i source (ie. 2x the number of frames, but 2x the fps), so the fps will be ~59.94. If you want single rate deinterlace, you can add SelectEven() or SelectOdd() , which throws out 1/2 the frames - that's what you were doing with the yadifmod+nnedi2 script (but it to has a bob mode as well if you specified mode=1, and field=3 for nnedi2)

    Normally for fine keying and delicate work, you wouldn't resize until after keying (because it is usually easier to apply masks , rotoscope, and make adjustments with higher resolution, although much slower will give better quality), but it might not make that big of a difference if you are using Premiere, and since your export goal is very low resolution. In fact, you might find that even a crappy key is "passable" since your final goal is so low in resolution
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 24th Mar 2010 at 16:09.
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  25. Well, it's looking like I can't use TempGaussMC on my box.
    The Microsoft dll: msmpeg2vdec.dll, which is in the System32 directory is crashing VDub with an out of bounds memory access violation.
    That could be a *lot* of things. Usually, it's calling something that isn't there.

    I checked and the MS dll is in the System32 folder. From what I can tell, that is the dll throwing the error.

    Any ideas?
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  26. Back to the drawing board.
    I hear you when you tell me you like Premiere but so far I absolutely hate the program.
    It can't deinterlace, it can't do chroma key. Do NOT resize with it . . .

    It crashed on me earlier when I tried to save the project and now it won't export the sound.
    I can hear it fine inside Premiere and yes the 'Export Audio' checkbox is checked.
    It says it's exporting stereo, 24 bit @48Kz but when I play it - no sound.

    I tried uninstalling & reinstalling Premiere. No help.
    I tried numerous project settings, no help.
    I tried just bringing the raw & the de-interlaced into it, a new project, and just exporting - no help.
    It was working and poof - now it's gone.

    This is what MediaInfo says about the exported file that is silent:

    Format : PCM
    Format settings, Endianness : Little
    Format settings, Sign : Unsigned
    Codec ID : 00001000-0000-0100-8000-00AA00389B71
    Codec ID/Hint : Microsoft
    Duration : 5s 5ms
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 2 304 Kbps
    Channel(s) : 2 channels
    Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
    Resolution : 24 bits
    Stream size : 1.37 MiB (1%)
    Interleave, duration : 5005 ms (150.00 video frames)

    Any ideas?
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  27. Originally Posted by MAtkins View Post
    Back to the drawing board.
    I hear you when you tell me you like Premiere but so far I absolutely hate the program.
    It can't deinterlace, it can't do chroma key. Do NOT resize with it . . .
    Yes, lots of people hate PP for various reasons. You're welcome to feel that way.

    I like it for editing, and it's good at what it's intended to do - editing. But all software has problems. Sure it can deinterlace, chroma key, and resize, but it's just not the "best" at it. Other editors can do those functions too, and they are equally poor. Avisynth has some functions that deinterlace better, but it sucks at editing...I tend to use the right tools suited for the job. You can do whatever you want...



    It crashed on me earlier when I tried to save the project and now it won't export the sound.
    I can hear it fine inside Premiere and yes the 'Export Audio' checkbox is checked.
    It says it's exporting stereo, 24 bit @48Kz but when I play it - no sound.

    I tried uninstalling & reinstalling Premiere. No help.
    I tried numerous project settings, no help.
    I tried just bringing the raw & the de-interlaced into it, a new project, and just exporting - no help.
    It was working and poof - now it's gone.

    This is what MediaInfo says about the exported file that is silent:

    Format : PCM
    Format settings, Endianness : Little
    Format settings, Sign : Unsigned
    Codec ID : 00001000-0000-0100-8000-00AA00389B71
    Codec ID/Hint : Microsoft
    Duration : 5s 5ms
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 2 304 Kbps
    Channel(s) : 2 channels
    Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
    Resolution : 24 bits
    Stream size : 1.37 MiB (1%)
    Interleave, duration : 5005 ms (150.00 video frames)

    Any ideas?

    What happens when you bring in the native AVCHD? It still crashes? or does it not crash anymore and the only problem is exporting audio?

    Maybe you have system/hardware issues like overheating , bad memory stick ?

    What software are you playing with that there is no sound? Try VLC, KMplayer - maybe it's a playback issue

    Is there video on the exported video?

    Try another audio format like AIFF

    Try deleting your project files, re-import the test file
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  28. Sorry about the rant. I just had no idea video would be this hard. I did it on a box w/ less than 1 MEG of RAM, a cheesy home vid cam, a Bravado Video input card & Adobe Premiere 4.1 back in '95 with no problem at all, including keying out the background. The vid & sound were great. I did it in about 3 hours. This time, thousands $$, weeks and still nothing I can use.

    My box is Dell Alienware Aurora and isn't giving me any indication of heat (liquid cooled) or memory problems. It's got 3 RAM sticks, each @ 2 GIGS.

    It only crashed that once. Since it won't export the audio from the raw MTS file, or the preprod script result:
    "YadifMod(order=1,mode=0, edeint=NNEDI2(field=1))"

    When I run it in VLC I get this error: VLC does not support the audio or video format "undf" which at least is some kind of a clue.

    I can't see a way to change the audio format when creating the project or when exporting.
    I'm exporting to an uncompressed AVI file.

    I've completely uninstalled & reinstalled Premiere and recreated the projects starting from scratch numerous times.

    Here are my audio settings & computer performance:
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  29. Can you upload the audio sample ? At least we can try to rule out a playback issue with your system
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  30. I exported using Microsoft AVI NTSC DV and though it ruined the video, the audio was intact.
    I exported again and reset it to Uncompressed Microsoft AVI and the video is fine but there's no audio.

    Here's Media Info on the attached file which is from the raw MTS:
    General
    Complete name : C:\Vids\Lessons.avi
    Format : AVI
    Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
    File size : 47.5 MiB
    Duration : 2s 2ms
    Overall bit rate : 199 Mbps
    Video
    Format : YUV
    Codec ID : UYVY
    Codec ID/Info : Uncompressed 16bpp. YUV 4:2:2 (Y sample at every pixel, U and V sampled at every second pixel horizontally on each line). A macropixel contains 2 pixels in 1 u_int32.
    Duration : 2s 2ms
    Bit rate : 195 Mbps
    Width : 848 pixels
    Height : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 16:9
    Frame rate : 29.970 fps
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 16.000
    Stream size : 46.6 MiB (98%)
    Audio
    Format : PCM
    Format settings, Endianness : Little
    Format settings, Sign : Unsigned
    Codec ID : 00001000-0000-0100-8000-00AA00389B71
    Codec ID/Hint : Microsoft
    Duration : 2s 2ms
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 2 304 Kbps
    Channel(s) : 2 channels
    Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
    Resolution : 24 bits
    Stream size : 563 KiB (1%)
    Interleave, duration : 2002 ms (60.00 video frames)
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