Capturing video from a European VHS tape through RCA out

[danno78]

1. Is fine. Deinterlace is only for display, the file captured is interlaced.
2. Instal lossless codec Huffyuv (30Gb/h) or Lagarith. The later need more power and compress a bit better and have support fo rmulticore CPU. Uncompressed is 75Gb/hour. From Action >> Recordig >> Options
3. About audio: select Line input from your sound card.

[c627627]

Yes, where it says Audio then Audio-Mixer Setup, there is only one option (the sound card) anyway but Audio Configure is grayed out. Is it grayed out on your system?


I do have space, 75Gb/hour is fine since I'll be making a DVD out if it straight away and erasing it... any reason I shouldn't go with Uncompressed if space is plentiful?

[danno78]

The audio out from tuner card must be connected at line in input from sound card.
Lossless compression is compresssion without any loss. If your target is DVD, after capture you should compress in mpeg2 format and then author in DVD-Video.

[c627627]

DScaler > Actions > Recording > Options > Compressions Options > Audio is still grayed out, shouldn't this be changed to 48 000 Hz:

[danno78]

Same for me, but it work. Audio sampling rate 48 KHz or 44.1 KHz have no impact over quality.

[c627627]

Should I use YUY2 or RGB capture if space is no problem?
EDIT: YUY2 is better than RGB.

[c627627]

Everything I try from here:
https://www.videohelp.com/tools/sections/capture

gives me the same result: Stable picture but grainy black & white. Only Dscaler displays the picture correctly, I wonder why.

[c627627]

DScaler starts off just like all the others, but then immediately after the video is shown, something "kicks in" and automatically adjusts the picture so that it is in color and not grainy but it starts off in B&W just like in ATi MMC and others.

So DScaler is using something that detects and adjusts the picture played from this PAL VCR...

[danno78]

Look at the video format set by DScaler and set manually in ATI MMC or VirtualDub when AIW 9200 is used. Also force PAL in vcr menu. Should be very simple task to capture PAL tape with a european VCR.

[hech54]

Why does nobody ever listen to me?
"Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!!!"

[c627627]

Jan, I am the thread starter and I am listening to you. I understand you are saying that the screen shot of my VCR options I took is what all or most European VCRs have as options, is that correct?:




You are also saying that "capture cards are mostly sold as format specific", can you clarify that with what lordsmurf is saying about him frequently using ATi capture cards in the US to capture PAL signal? Do you mean that he's using a true VHS converting player and I am not?


Finally, I have successfully created a DVD out of the European VHS footage using this VCR as source to ATi TV Wonder Pro PCI capture card. I do not notice degradation perhaps due to the fact that the source is not exactly a high quality DVD signal.

danno78, here is the screen shot of the only way to capture a clear stable color signal from this VCR. I am very familiar with ATi MMC and have tested other software, all with the same result: No matter which selection is chosen, the best I can get is a Black & White stable picture. Dscaler is the only one that has something kick in to correct the initial Black & White picture and output one in stable color. I do not know why.

[edDV]

That is odd because PAL-N has PAL subcarrier at 3.58 MHz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL#PAL-Nc

Normal PAL tape on PAL VCR output would be PAL-BDGHI. That would have PAL subcarrier at 4.43 MHz.

If you were playing an NTSC tape on a Euro PAL VCR, it would come out as PAL60.

I haven't used DScaler and my AIW card is in a box somewhere so I can't help test.

[c627627]

edDV, I'm curious how would I verify that just as a point of interest? fyi: US VHS tape shows up correctly with this VCR only when NTSC 3.58 is selected, not NTSC 4.43 or any other setting and it shows up in color and clear on ATi MMC and all other software.


Theoretically, what is it do you think that DSCaler has that kicks in that no other program I tested has, which can display PAL tapes correctly through this VCR when no other software can?

[c627627]

... and by the way, when I try to save the single channel 44,100 Hz audio as ac3, I get errors. I saved it as both 48 KHz and 44.1 KHz wav and am trying to convert them to ac3 now before and/or after converting the audio from single to dual channel per your suggestion. EDIT: N/M For anyone reading this using Sony Vegas and Sound Forge, version 8 and 9 of Sound Forge and version 9 of Vegas give error messages for single channel audio conversions but version 10 of Sound Forge works. You just open the Single Channel audio capture > Process > Channel Converter and it converts it to 2 channel and then to ac3.

This is better than using a Y RCA splitter.

[edDV]

edDV, I'm curious how would I verify that just as a point of interest? fyi: US VHS tape shows up correctly with this VCR only when NTSC 3.58 is selected, not NTSC 4.43 or any other setting and it shows up in color and clear on ATi MMC and all other software.


Theoretically, what is it do you think that DSCaler has that kicks in that no other program I tested has, which can display PAL tapes correctly through this VCR when no other software can?

NTSC has subcarrier at 3.58 MHz.

PAL-N has PAL subcarrier at 3.58 MHz. Are you certain these tapes aren't from Argentina/Paraguay/Uruguay?

All Euro/Asia tapes have PAL subcarrier at 4.43 MHz.

Are you certain these are PAL tapes?

Regardless, if you can get color at 3.58 encode a DVD and test it on a PAL DVD player to your TV.

There is no PAL/SECAM difference for a PAL DVD. The DVD is the same if done right from any PAL or SECAM source. Check the TV INFO display. If it says 720x576 and the picture is in color, you are done.

As for audio, DVD is 48KHz but for PAL, MP2 or AC3 is acceptable

I can't answer questions about DScaler.

[c627627]

100% Percent Western European VHS tape.

The PAL DVD created from captured footage plays just fine on my Plasma but the same PAL DVD does not play on a (cheap) US DVD player connected to standard TV. I therefore decided to make two DVDs, PAL and 720x480/29.97 NTSC DVD from same uncompressed avi capture footage.


As you know DScaler only captures audio at 44 100 Hz so I just wanted to tell others that we actually do have to convert audio to 48 000 Hz then when making the DVD from DScaler captures.

[edDV]

100% Percent Western European VHS tape.

The PAL DVD created from captured footage plays just fine on my Plasma but the same PAL DVD does not play on a (cheap) US DVD player connected to standard TV. I therefore decided to make two DVDs, PAL and 720x480/29.97 NTSC DVD from same uncompressed avi capture footage.


As you know DScaler only captures audio at 44 100 Hz so I just wanted to tell others that we actually do have to convert audio to 48 000 Hz then when making the DVD from DScaler captures.

PAL to NTSC conversion is a complex process. Are you saying the PAL-N issue is with the NTSC conversion?

[c627627]

I'm just saying that I
1. Loaded the uncompressed avi captures into Sony Vegas, edited
2. Rendered As PAL DVD and made a PAL DVD.
3. Rendered As NTSC DVD and made a NTSC DVD.

Both DVDs work on my plasma, but only NTSC works on cheap dvd player connected to standard TV.

[c627627]

Why would I need a "real" converting VCR or a PAL capture card if I can do that?

Quality of original footage is 1990's VHS camcorder footage so I don't think the resulting DVD quality is bad at all in comparison to original VHS footage.

[edDV]

I'm just saying that I
1. Loaded the uncompressed avi captures into Sony Vegas, edited
2. Rendered As PAL DVD and made a PAL DVD.
3. Rendered As NTSC DVD and made a NTSC DVD.

Both DVDs work on my plasma, but only NTSC works on cheap dvd player connected to standard TV.

As expected. A normal NTSC DVD player won't play a PAL DVD.

So you are done.

[c627627]

If you can just clarify my question regarding
1. Loaded the uncompressed avi captures into Sony Vegas, edited

3. Rendered As NTSC DVD and made a NTSC DVD.

vs. direct capture to 720x480/29.97 DVD using a "real" converting VCR. What would the end result give me that's better and why?

[danno78]

The tapes are PAL but your vcr shift the color subcarrier to 3.58 Mhz. Why? Because is set so in menu. Because that PAL N must be set to have steady color picture. This particular vcr have a rich options regarding color encoding. The normal situation is: subcarrier at 4.43 MHz and PAL encoding. With actual settings you can capture with all capture cards that have PAL N option in driver and software. Not all cards and software have PAL-N.
The digital file captured is PAL and if you want as NTSC it must be converted with software. You have already have done that with Vegas. Performing transcoding with a VCR the quality will be lower. Keep in mind that transcoding from a system to other will be always with certain quality loss. The best algorithm to do PAL > NTSC conversion is some avisynth scripts but these are not for novice users.
Your job is done now, but for the future set the proper color encoding for PAL tapes and will be able to capture with all cards with the standard set as PAL-BDGHI. Next time move from the color from Auto to PAL and see what is set there.

[c627627]

danno78, there are no additional VCR Menu options, see below.

Other software, including ATI Multimedia Center which captures by far the best quality video on any ATi capture card, have many PAL options from Pal-B to Pal-N.

Here's how things look on
Picture 1: DSCaler
Picture 2: ATi MMC and all other software Pal-Pal
Picture 3: ATi MMC and all other software NTSC 3.58
Picture 4: ATi MMC and all other software NTSC 4.43

[c627627]

Picture 1: ATi selections, as you can see, many Pal selections there.

Picture 2: ATi Record Error message before starting capture, it captures in Black and White.

Picture 3: Perhaps the lack of Europe broadcasts here is the cause but this is Composite input not broadcast plus ALL other software behaves like ATi. Stable picture but in black and white.

[c627627]

So now with all that information can we look at this:

Performing transcoding with a VCR the quality will be lower. Keep in mind that transcoding from a system to other will be always with certain quality loss. The best algorithm to do PAL > NTSC conversion is some avisynth scripts but these are not for novice users.

Your job is done now, but for the future set the proper color encoding for PAL tapes and will be able to capture with all cards with the standard set as PAL-BDGHI. Next time move from the color from Auto to PAL and see what is set there.

What I did:
• Capture uncompressed 576x480/25 avi, open in Sony Vegas, Render As NTSC DVD
is better than
• Capture from a "real" converting VCR into a NTSC DVD file,
is this true or false?


The second part of your post, this has nothing to do with VCR settings as the picture is in clear color only on Dscaler with which I can capture but you are saying use Pal and Pal TV setting, correct? like this:

[c627627]

How do people buy DVD movies in stores in Europe an watch them on American DVD players? Is that possible, aren't they PAL DVDs which cannot play on standard American equipment like the PAL DVD I made couldn't be played on cheap DVD Player and standard US TV?

[danno78]

What I did:
• Capture uncompressed 576x480/25 avi, open in Sony Vegas, Render As NTSC DVD
is better than
• Capture from a "real" converting VCR into a NTSC DVD file,
is this true or false?

True. I don`t have such vcr (converting vcr) but I have read what others have write about this. They say transcoding with software tools is way to go. Transcoding from PAL to NTSC mean more steps (deinterlace, resize, reinterlace and change frame rate) wich are better done with software.
Something is wrong because this special vcr, wich send PAL N format (a mixt between PAL and NTSC) instead a true PAL signal. A simple PAL vcr will not change the color system.
How about change from Pal TV to 4.33?
You should be happy with the job done.

[lordsmurf]

How do people buy DVD movies in stores in Europe an watch them on American DVD players? Is that possible, aren't they PAL DVDs which cannot play on standard American equipment like the PAL DVD I made couldn't be played on cheap DVD Player and standard US TV?

Most DVD players are made with kits in China, for worldwide use. Therefore the machines play anything, differing only in the region coding and power plug type (sometimes power supply, too).

I only have two players that cannot do PAL, due to being Japanese made machines.

[c627627]

We are talking about no region restricted PAL DVDs and you are saying that 576x480/25 PAL DVDs I make will play on most machines here in the US and that the one I tested it on that couldn't, is rare?

[c627627]

danno78, I can select PAL and then
3.58 or 4.43 or PAL TV, I see no difference in picture when playing a European VHS tape. You say go with PAL 4.43? I will do that next time but I cannot see a difference between any three of these options.