Examples of VCR degradation?

[sphinx99]

I was wondering if anyone had examples of various VCR degradation modes, e.g. screenshots of what happens when a certain failure mode strikes. It could be a useful reference for what to look out for - signs of problems that aren't source material-related.

Examples,
- heads magnetized
- playback head dirty
- playback head worn / high hours
- deck doesn't support speed properly
- others ??

I am sure people will often play a tape in a new VCR and sometimes see a problem that they are not sure is a sign of VCR degradation vs. tape degradation. I've seen some good examples of common playback issues related to tape damage, but what about player damage?

[lordsmurf]

I don't think "heads magnetized" is a valid error.

I've seen dirty head examples on this forum before. It can vary. my last dirty head issue looked like tape dropouts.
I have some deck speed samples somewhere -- screwy stuff.
Worn heads + crappy tapes look about the same.

You left off "misaligned decks".
It tends to feather tape edges, and that looks like a tracking problem.

Bad decks usually damage tapes, so the two are inevitably linked.

[Quasipal]

Modern VCR's are heavy on their heads (tape constantly loaded) and when they wear you can get poor contrast boundaries with black or white micro-streaking that looks a bit like the tape has time base promlems.

[handyguy]

Sometimes you get a jumpy picture cause you stored your cassette face down. After 15 years, the cassettes tend to get fuzzy, cheap ones anyway.

[lordsmurf]

After 15 years, the cassettes tend to get fuzzy, cheap ones anyway.

According to who? This is often repeated online, but it's not really true. Age in and of itself doesn't damage tapes in less than 25 years. The only people who say this are ones trying to make money on selling you products or services to transfer tapes.

Sometimes you get a jumpy picture cause you stored your cassette face down.

I've never heard this. Again, according to what research, or what research-backed body?

[sphinx99]

I don't know what research-backed body proves or disproves these things, but I do know that old tapes that haven't been played for 10+ years can benefit greatly from a few ff/rw cycles.

[handyguy]

Sometimes you get a jumpy picture cause you stored your cassette face down.

I've never heard this. Again, according to what research, or what research-backed body?

The tape doesn't always rewind evenly, there are little peaks & if you store them on these by putting it face down it can wrinkle or that's the theory.

It was Sony that said tapes start to get fuzzy after 15 years, although as you know it doesn't always happen.

[lordsmurf]

I'd like to see the original context of that Sony information, as well as references. Most VHS degradation statements are repeated rubbish, where a company like Sony never said it. In other cases, it was marketing BS to push new products -- most of those are debunked, although the debunking was never as widespread as the viral misinformation was.

There's really no proper way to store a tape -- not directionally, at least. All sides suffer from gravity, plus the spool is round. Any Y dimension suffers the same fate, as does any X dimension. Basic geometry reveals how silly these old notions are. The only thing that can differ is X from Y. (Technically, it's X+Y and Z, or maybe X+Z and Y, to be geometrically accurate. I hate math.)

[pgoelz]

FWIW, I am currently working on capturing my VHS collection. The oldest date to 1981 and were shot on Scotch. Back then, Scotch was about all you could find and it was HORRID stuff...... oxide would flake off even when new. Imagine my surprise when the very oldest of these tapes looks as far as I can remember every bit as good as it ever looked...... 29 years later. Granted, it is being played on a better deck than the one that recorded it. But dang, I'm surprised. Hard to say for sure but I see no degradation whatsoever.

These are mostly camera originals, with maybe 10-20 plays total. They have been stored in drawers, on their front edge, heads out, in my living room for pretty much the entire 29 year time span.

Paul

[lordsmurf]

Scotch wasn't the worst, but you're right -- not the best.
BASF was always a winner back in those days, or the Panasonic tapes.
A few years later, we had Maxell, JVC and TDK readily available -- those were excellent for years!

[pgoelz]

You didn't mention what the stuff cost either. My first couple tapes were $20 EACH in 1981. Ah, those were the days

[handyguy]

I usually bought professional ones, they seemed to weigh more & always worked.

"If the user keeps tapes at a constant temperature of 59 degrees and a relative humidity level of 40 to 60 percent, Sony predicts all modern tape formulations will last 15 years without significant degradation."
http://www.whitesphotography.com/whitesphotography/How%20Long%20Videos%20Last.htm

[sphinx99]

I'm actually quite impressed at how long some of my oldest (~ also 1981-82) VHS tapes have lasted, and the amount of signal you can get off them even when recorded SLP.

Pgoelz (fellow Michigander!) brings up a good point that even the "cheap" tapes weren't all that cheap back then. A lot of the VHS tapes from the very early 1980s would be similar to a home-burned BD disk circa late 2008. I would not even hope that a late 2008 home-burned BD disk would be useful at all in twenty years, which is why it's very impressive how well early VHS tapes hold up.

[lordsmurf]

Before we start: I have nothing against you handyguy. I fight the information, not you.

"If the user keeps tapes at a constant temperature of 59 degrees and a relative humidity level of 40 to 60 percent, Sony predicts all modern tape formulations will last 15 years without significant degradation."
http://www.whitesphotography.com/whitesphotography/How%20Long%20Videos%20Last.htm

That link is bullshit. A crappy photography site from a backwater panhandle town in Texas, whose whole goal is "send us your tapes before they die" is not a valid reference. Let's try this one: http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/estimation_of_les.html -- CLIR = Council on Library and Information Resources, a site dedicated to archival information, who isn't try to sell you anything whatsoever. (It only tells part of the story, because it was a very narrow look at humidity and temperature. Without going into details, your tapes should last 30+ years in most standard home/office conditions.)

Here's an actual Sony study finding: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.39.6176

People who are actually educated in video (especially those with broadcast field experience) never say things like "tapes die in 10-15 years" -- it just never happens, we know better. The only folks saying this are the ones that just really started to get into video in the past 5-10 years, usually to start some fly-by-night VHS>DVD service with gear they bought from Walmart and Best Buy. This would also explain why these things tend to ONLY be said on sites trying to convince you to buy their stuff!

[lordsmurf]

Here's a good article from the pre-BS days of the Internet:

There's no label saying so, but be warned: VHS tapes don't last forever. Those personal, irreplaceable videos--be they of the big game, the birth of a child, your wedding, baby's first steps--one day could break down. It probably won't happen, though, because today's VCR tapes are too good and ways to extend their lives too easy. The trouble is, no one seems to know exactly how long those tapes will remain operable.

"You have to keep an eye on your tapes," notes Bill Drysdale, Fuji's Consumer Video Product Manager. "But if they're stored properly, they should last 20 years or more."

"There's no absolute answer to how long your tapes will last," indicates Bob Fontana, TDK's Manager of Customer and Technical Services. "But it's safe to assume that, with proper care, 25 years or more can be expected. The real question is whether or not the hardware will exist to reproduce the recordings."

"It all depends on how they're stored," explains Patricia Glotzbier, Maxell's Technical Applications Specialist for Consumer Products. "Under optimum conditions, a tape can last more than 30 years.

Notice that 20-25-30 or more is the typical professional response from the tape makers themselves -- the people that did the R&D on this. This is specific VHS info, too! (You don't often get VHS-specific data when discussing longevity.) Many of the earliest tapes from 50+ years ago are still fine. Not VHS, but the basic construction is the same, therefore data can be extrapolated.

Even more at http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/4life_expectancy.html (CLIR, again)

Many of us have recordings that are 30+ years old, stored indoors in our homes/offices (i.e., "stored properly"), and we know they are still looking good and playing fine.

Part of the problem is people don't read anything. Look for words like "at least" or "more than" -- don't just read the numbers and then butterfly off in another direction. Not understanding the topic is how myths start.

[sphinx99]

http://cool.conservation-us.org/byauth/wheeler/wheeler2.html

and

http://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/shtml_sub/NEHTapeFinalReport.pdf

[pirej]

dirty heads, and some levels tweak.
I'm not shore what causes the horisontal "lines"... but other tapes play exellent on the same vcr..

[handyguy]

People who are actually educated in video (especially those with broadcast field experience) never say things like "tapes die in 10-15 years" -- it just never happens, we know better. The only folks saying this are the ones that just really started to get into video in the past 5-10 years, usually to start some fly-by-night VHS>DVD service with gear they bought from Walmart and Best Buy. This would also explain why these things tend to ONLY be said on sites trying to convince you to buy their stuff!

My point is why not back them up at 15 years or so? At least you can check how they are doing at that point & you'd get another 25 years or so.

[lordsmurf]

People who are actually educated in video (especially those with broadcast field experience) never say things like "tapes die in 10-15 years" -- it just never happens, we know better. The only folks saying this are the ones that just really started to get into video in the past 5-10 years, usually to start some fly-by-night VHS>DVD service with gear they bought from Walmart and Best Buy. This would also explain why these things tend to ONLY be said on sites trying to convince you to buy their stuff!

My point is why not back them up at 15 years or so? At least you can check how they are doing at that point & you'd get another 25 years or so.

No arguments here.

[lordsmurf]

http://cool.conservation-us.org/byauth/wheeler/wheeler2.html
and http://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/shtml_sub/NEHTapeFinalReport.pdf

Thanks.