thoughts on hd to bd ethics

[RdM642]

I moved my response below from another thread because I don't want to cloud up an guide plus q/a thread with a considered but off topic discussion.

the answer is simple really, i only download movies that i bought on dvd before blu-ray was even out or movies that i bought on hd dvd before blu-ray won the format war, for these movies as far as i'm concerned fair use governs my actions. for any other movie that doesn't fall into the above categories, like pirates of the caribbean, resident evil, spiderman and so on i do buy the blu-ray, i currently own at least 20 purchased blu-ray disks, at least that many hd dvd and i can't begin to tell you how many standard dvd's.

Despite your quite illegitimate arguments in favour of piracy in the OT forum, fair use has nothing at all to do with this. By your reckoning, if my father paid for a vinyl edition of a record in 1958, he is now entitled to the 8 track, cassette, CD, DVD Audio and SACD versions as well, simply because technology has moved on since then.
Have you ever made a post that wasn't full of self-serving deluded bullsh*t ?

I hate to revisit an old argument between two others but since I am reading this thread from the beginning I have to note that when it comes to replacing HD DVD with BD DVD I don't seen anything whatsoever unethical about finding a way to do this without paying or with rental. I am not advocating it, but just noting my feeling that it is not "deluded Bullsh*t" to take the position that that is ethical. In fact the artist have been paid, the backers have been paid, the writes, producers, directors to provide you with HD content and if your player dies you re out of luck. I would much prefer a trade in system, just as trade in system of kids' DVDs back when studios were saying: if you get a scratch, buy it all over again was the original impulse for me learning how to do any "backup." (many studios now will take returns).

Lets face it, the product's container is a minuscule amount of what you are buying. In addition to those already paid whcih I mentioned above you are not adding any transportation, packaging, merchandising or marketing costs either by acquiring a working copy. You already subsidized that with your original purchase.

I would also like to point out that the tread begins with use of ANYDVD. Are we therefore saying that all of us using this thread and anyone using anydvd is engaging in "deluded bullSh*t" to justify piracy since not only is anydvd not legal to sell in the US for example but it is explicitly forbidden by the assertion of rights by the content makers to transfer BD off of the BD.

It is a separate question when one asserts right to acquire content at a new resolution eg acquiring HD content because one has paid for SD content. In most cases with ip updates are free, upgrades are not --- but they are discounted.

One poster makes an analogy of 1958 vinyl and rights to 2010 SACD. That is a valid analogy but I don't think it fits every situation. I wouldn't feel the least bit of ethical problem myself with making a cassette copy of a friends vinyl record if I had bought the same vinyl disk and it broke.

I just think we have to be careful about asserting right and wrong in black and white terms because any of us transferring to hard drive, even of purchase BD, are all rationalizing -- on a "self serving" basis -- something the sellers are saying we are not allowed to do and are explicitly forbidding as part of their license.

Also, exactly who doesn't know that we using using anydvd are knowingly participating in the violation of patents and copyright on CSS and or macrovision code? IE it isn't just what anydvd does, it is how it does it which I don't think any of doesn't know is by using code copywritten and/or patented by another party who never gave anydvd permission and who, if anydvd were sold in the US for example would have an actionable case.

I think most of us understand that between a) the assertion that making any backup is illegal (and again we are using programs that illegally use macrovison's IP to do so) to z) the other end of the spectrum with people who live off of torrents, there are many other activities of varying degrees. One example would be time shifting of rentals: where a BB rental rented on Thursday and returned on Friday, and through the miracle of anydvd watched on Saturday. That process it could be said delvers all the same benefit to the IP owner and the rental store, and indeed, actually gives them more opportunist for revenue from that title than if you returned it on Sunday!

In the end my own personal ethics prevent me from using torrents. We live in a world really made so much more interesting and productive by content and IP, and paying the people who produce it (and indeed those who invest in its production) is fair and not paying them is theft and reduces the amount of content. But if you have paid the artist, and the rest, and something happens to the minuscule proportional value container, whether it be lost, broken, scratched or playback become obsolete and not replaceable, it is not so easy to assert replacing with a copy from elsewhere it is outright theft.

I just think throwing downloading of content one never owned in any form, and acquiring content in a different form do to container problems, are not at all the same thing and there is a big grey area between. For those who prefer ethics in black and white, what the heck are you using anydvd for anyway for anything whatsoever? its core elements are stolen property in any country (well, the 99% who have singed patent treaties ).

[lordsmurf]

As with anything else ... when money is involved, ethics tend to go out the window.

[RdM642]

Yeah, well just pointing out that black and white is a difficult assertion for anyone who owns anydvd for any reason.

[lordsmurf]

Ethically, I think torrents for TV shows is fine -- those were freely aired anyway.

[Supreme2k]

the other end of the spectrum with people who live off of torrents, there are many other activities of varying degrees. One example would be time shifting of rentals: where a BB rental rented on Thursday and returned on Friday, and through the miracle of anydvd watched on Saturday. That process it could be said delvers all the same benefit to the IP owner and the rental store, and indeed, actually gives them more opportunist for revenue from that title than if you returned it on Sunday!

That not really a valid argument. They price according to their rental schedule. You are not "helping out" by copying the disc. The very notion of rentals is for time shifting. Most people rent a movie to watch it that night regardless if they have a week. In actuality, many of those long-term rentals are built to make you forget you have them, thus incurring late fees.

This has been discussed before


Also, there is a huge difference between backing up what you own, and downloading it. I actually see nothing wrong with format shift (taking your cassette and transferring to CD, converting your HD-DVD to BluRay, etc.)

Bottom line: Do what you're going to do in the privacy of your own home and that's that. No need to justify yourself to people on a message board. Whatever I do personally, I'm doing it because I'm okay with it and feel it is "right", otherwise I wouldn't be doing it (you hear that, dead hookers!)

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ls,
While I generally agree, with Tivo, Hulu and most of the networks playing the full eps for free on their sites, you really have no excuse.

[guns1inger]

ls,
While I generally agree, with Tivo, Hulu and most of the networks playing the full eps for free on their sites, you really have no excuse.

Unless you live outside the US, where many of these services are either unavailable (hulu) or substandard (tivo) or worse (our local TV replay versions, which are very low quality and available for short durations). There can also be up to two years delay in broadcasting some seasons, or stations simply choosing to stop broadcasting mid-season after changing time slots every other week and then wondering why they cant get a steady audience.

[RdM642]

This has been discussed before

I don't see any conclusion one way or the other or conclusive position one way or the other on that thread. If anything the dcma has held in court cases and there have been no court cases against time shifting.

Also, there is a huge difference between backing up what you own, and downloading it. I actually see nothing wrong with format shift (taking your cassette and transferring to CD, converting your HD-DVD to BluRay, etc.)

You see a huge difference. That is cool. Soem would see using anydvd to back up purchased movies as worse. Is paying for it owning it? do you own the certainly illegally used macrovison or sony assets in anydvd because you paid someone who took it without rights?

. No need to justify yourself to people on a message board.

I am specifically not "justifying it," I am point to the fact that there are a ton of gray areas. On the thread I took my cue from the very first post of the guide was "use anydvd" someone mentioned their view on ip, and someone else called that view piracy, when use of anydvd is piracy for anyone who thinks about it.

I don't know where you get justify, that is exactly what I am not doing. I am just putting the idea of black and white to lie.

When I drive 32 miles an hour in a 25 mile an hour zone willfully adding risk to pedestrians and other drivers if I wonder why a guy driving at 30 says I am irresponsible that wondering is not an act of "justification."

Yes there are people who have four shots and drive that at 70 during school hours, and there are some who break the law by driving at 26. I am justifying none of that. I am saying there is a range. I am also saying that it is hard to find anyone here who is not violating IP or using products that do.

I don't even want to appear to be completely disagreeing with gunslinger or with you. I am just saying these things fall along a range and I do wonder at how anyone can proclaim total innocence.

[Supreme2k]

I don't even want to appear to be completely disagreeing with gunslinger or with you. I am just saying these things fall along a range and I do wonder at how anyone can proclaim total innocence.

What I'm saying is that there really is no black, white or gray. The bottom line is that whatever you want to do is between you and your computer, or you and the download site (and the limewire/p2p monitors who may catch you).There is not even any reason to bring up the "I have my rights!" argument when it is really none of our business. Whether other people do it is irrelevant. You are more likely to be called a pirate or an a-hole if you proclaim loudly that you commit these acts. that's why I bring up justification. If (general) you want to download, copy rentals, or shoplift, then do it. No need to do it and say that you are righteous.


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gunslinger, the OP and myself are in the U.S., so the rest can suck it!

[RdM642]

[QUOTE=Supreme2k;1970441]

There is not even any reason to bring up the "I have my rights!" argument when it is really none of our business.

Well I certainty made no such argument.

My point was that when criticiizing the ethics choices of others, on a guide thread using a product that is intentionally based outside of the Berne convention countries because it uses without license IP under patent or copyright, and does so for the purpose of circumvention DMCA laws and analogs in Berne convention nations, is a bit of a stretch.
These are all questions of degree, I use the term "gray" vs" black and white" because it logically applies, you can pick your term.

[lordsmurf]

I don't understand why anybody would want to copy most movies. I generally return a rented DVD highly disappointed. At best, I liked the movie -- but I already saw it, why own it for re-watching? I don't understand the need to re-watch the same movie over and over again. I don't get it.

[Supreme2k]

ls, stop watching shitty movies and you'll soon "get it".

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RdM642, I understand what you are saying about anydvd and the like, but I'm partially responding to the argument that you quoted, which definitely falls into the false entitlement category.

in addition, most of my comments are in general (the all-encompassing "you"), except when addressing deadrats original claim. Making a backup (the gray area) is many times removed from thinking that you own the rights to something in all of its changing formats until you die.

[lordsmurf]

ls, stop watching shitty movies and you'll soon "get it".

I rented Shooter. It was okay, I guess. Better than the other crap.
I rented Extract. Mike Judge -- seriously?
I rented Law Abiding Citizen. Blah. I didn't expect it to be a story about a lunatic.

I walked up to Redbox yesterday -- as I do about once a week, since it's in front of the grocery store I shop at -- and everything looked to be crap. I've done that about once a week for a month now.

from thinking that you own the rights to something in all of its changing formats until you die.

I don't readily recall any version being identical between formats. DVD and VHS, VHS and Laserdisc, Laserdisc and DVD, DVD and Blu-ray. There are often subtle differences. Or sometimes major differences, be it in edit, bonus content, video quality, etc.

[Supreme2k]

I don't readily recall any version being identical between formats. DVD and VHS, VHS and Laserdisc, Laserdisc and DVD, DVD and Blu-ray. There are often subtle differences. Or sometimes major differences, be it in edit, bonus content, video quality, etc.

That's my reference point. Even further, if someone (deadrats) backs the losing/dying horse, then too bad. If they are going to engage in illegal activity, then do it and leave us out of it without getting on their soapbox and spouting drivel.