Cheap DVD-R Any Good?

[adalect]

I am starting to encode some real-life stuff that requires higher bitrates and the like. I want to test XVID encodes of between 2500kbps to 4000kbps on my DivX player, Phillips DVP3960.

I tried testing out my encodes on some 52x speed CD-Rs but that proved laggy. I tried again with some 8x DVD-R media and it worked better. My conclusion: CD-Rs don't spin fast enough, so I would need to burn my stuff on DVD-Rs so that it works out in the end.

However, I am in the dark about DVD-R media. Is there a distinct difference between the expensive stuff, and the cheap stuff? I don't really want to read up on studies; I want to hear from people's real-life experiences with this stuff. I am aiming for a DVD-R lifetime of about 30 years, if anybody is wondering.

There is also some Memorex DVD+RW at 8x speed at the Dollar Giant. I am tempted to buy it to test my encodes on, so that I don't risk wasting good DVD-Rs. The case can be opened, so I gave it a try and looked at the disc. The disc looks real enough and the dye is dark bluish. This is similar to my Memorex CD-RW at 4x speed. It only costs $1.25CDN without taxes. Do you guys think it's real?

Thanks to anybody who tries to help me.

[hech54]

My conclusion: CD-Rs don't spin fast enough

Your conclusion is dead wrong and memorex are ALWAYS garbage.

[lordsmurf]

All you need to do is read this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm

Big difference between good stuff and junk.
Although you often find the best discs can be found for better prices than the garbage. Go figure.

[TooLFooL]

if you want to test, buy a few dvd-rw so you can reuse them. when you are ready to archive, ALWAYS BUY GOOD MEDIA!

[jman98]

My conclusion: CD-Rs don't spin fast enough

Your conclusion is dead wrong and memorex are ALWAYS garbage.

It's actually well known that some DVD players only spin CD-Rs at 1x speed. I don't have the math handy, but that may not be fast enough for the bitrate the original poster is proposing. DVD players spin CD-Rs at 1x because that is fast enough for what CD-Rs are normally used for - audio CDs, VCD and SVCD.

[CobraPilot]

Your Phillips DVP3960 will also play Nero Digital (via Nero Recode), which gives exceptional quality. It is not freeware, though.

Movies about 1:30-1:45 will recode and fit on a 700-mb CD and play well on your Phillips (as they do on mine, an unadvertised bonus), including a selectable subtitle. Bitrates in this range are about 1mb-700kb.

[hech54]

Most Philips players are hit or miss with files encoded with a packed bitstream....and it is not consistent. Some like it...some don't.
I still highly doubt it is a CD Read Speed problem.....not in this day and age.

[adalect]

My conclusion: CD-Rs don't spin fast enough

Your conclusion is dead wrong and memorex are ALWAYS garbage.

If anybody is wondering, the Memorex CDs I was using to test the encodes were CD-RWs. I had a few laying about, so that is why I used them. I haven't really tested on a real CD-R yet.

All you need to do is read this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm

I saw that about two years ago and wonder if it is still accurate toady. I think a bit of that guide is biased in nature: I don't know if it is founded on fear and rumours. That is why I am asking for everybody's real-life experiences and not some study.

if you want to test, buy a few dvd-rw so you can reuse them.

How long do DVD-RWs last? I heard a couple of months, but I hope not. What about the media I found at the Dollar Giant? Do you guys think it's real?

Your Phillips DVP3960 will also play Nero Digital (via Nero Recode), which gives exceptional quality... Movies about 1:30-1:45 will recode and fit on a 700-mb CD and play well on your Phillips...Bitrates in this range are about 1mb-700kb.

CobraPilot, can you elaborate a bit more on that. I am currently testing out XVID encodes on the assumption that it saves space in the end. Judging by the numbers, a typical 1h30min movie takes about 2 - 3GB for good quality in my tastes, with a rough bitrate of 2000 - 3500 kbps. So what magic does Nero do to only take about a third of that size? Please inform me.

Most Philips players are hit or miss with files encoded with a packed bitstream... I still highly doubt it is a CD Read Speed problem.....not in this day and age.

The files I encoded do not have packed bitstream. Remember guys, these are my encodes, not somebody else's on the internet. I said earlier that my original encodes was sluggy on a CD-RW but not on a DVD-R; hence my assumption of read speeds.



Thanks for the variety of feedback so far. I look forward in getting this issue tackled.

[TooLFooL]

if you want to test, buy a few dvd-rw so you can reuse them.

How long do DVD-RWs last? I heard a couple of months, but I hope not. What about the media I found at the Dollar Giant? Do you guys think it's real?

well, the very first dvds i ever bought are a 5-pack of FujiFilm dvd-rw. i bought them 8-10 years ago and i still use them today. some have had data on them for years that still plays fine.

as for the media at Dollar Giant, what brand is it? if you can't tell, there's a good chance it's crap, but then again it could be some bulk taiyu yuden. ...you never know!

[adalect]

well, the very first dvds i ever bought are a 5-pack of FujiFilm dvd-rw. i bought them 8-10 years ago and i still use them today... as for the media at Dollar Giant, what brand is it?

The media at the Dollar Giant are Memorex 8x DVD+RWs. They look real enough and closely resemble the Memorex 4x CD-RW I currently have. The dye is dark blue; which is similar to my Memorex CD-RWs.

I don't know about DVD-/+RW experiences, but as from my CD-RW experience, it was OK. About 2 years in, one disc I constantly used had its dye turn black on me. Then it wasn't usable. Two other discs have the edges of the dye/label chipped off, so I can't burn it to its full 700MB. I currently have 1 that is still quite usable, but its dye is also blackening.

Will I find similar problems with DVD-/+RWs? I will later ask for the refund policy at the Dollar Giant to have a better idea of what my gamble is like before I buy.

[CobraPilot]

Originally Posted by CobraPilot
Your Phillips DVP3960 will also play Nero Digital (via Nero Recode), which gives exceptional quality... Movies about 1:30-1:45 will recode and fit on a 700-mb CD and play well on your Phillips...Bitrates in this range are about 1mb-700kb.
__________

adalect says:

CobraPilot, can you elaborate a bit more on that. I am currently testing out XVID encodes on the assumption that it saves space in the end. Judging by the numbers, a typical 1h30min movie takes about 2 - 3GB for good quality in my tastes, with a rough bitrate of 2000 - 3500 kbps. So what magic does Nero do to only take about a third of that size? Please inform me.
__________

The Nero program came with one of my DVD Recorders. It has made its mark by providing high quality with high compression.

I've found the Recode program could produce excellent quality video that my uncalibrated eyeballs could seldom tell from the original if the bitrate was above 700kb or so, even on a large-screen (non-HD) TV.

Shorter movies would naturally take less compression, but even at bitrates down to 500kb (longer movie; I've never gone below that rate), the video was acceptable. Of course, others might howl at that much compression and the resultant viewing experience. Acceptable "quality" vs compression rates (or the goal of fitting a movie onto a CD) is always in the eye of the beholder.

Nero provides a free, fully functional 15-day trial at their website, so you could see for yourself if it's a better solution for you, although not free.

[TooLFooL]

...memorex are ALWAYS garbage.

I agree 100%

[adalect]

The Nero program... made its mark by providing high quality with high compression.

How is the compatibility with other players? For me, I see three ways in doing my encodes:

1. In DVD MPEG2 Format for compatibility with DVD Players
2. In S/VCD Format, which works with many advertised DVD Players
3. In DivX or Xvid Format, which works on many mainstream DivX Players

I think the video quality and sizes for MPEG2 and S/VCD are not up to my standards, and my experience leads me to think that Xvid is the best tradeoff for my eyes. Since there are many cheap DivX/Xvid Players on the market, I don't have to worry too much about not having a player to play those files.

I haven't heard much about Nero Digital though. So how is its compatibility with other players? I don't want to be stuck with something I can't use in the future. Sort of like having a floopy disc with important information but you can't read it, because floppy drives aren't sold with computers any more.

__________________

And my other concern: what's a good price for a spindle of DVD-Rs? I plan to use DVD-Rs for the best compatbility, so what is a good price for about a spindle of 50 DVD-Rs? I just want a list of prices for this; I will from there decide what good/expensive or decent/cheap media I may get.

I also read that optical media is not a good way to store for long-term things. I plan to back up my stuff on my terabyte hard drive, so please keep that in mind when answering about DVD-R/W media.


Thanks for the help so far. I appreciate it.

[CobraPilot]

The Nero program... made its mark by providing high quality with high compression.

How is the compatibility with other players? [snip]

I haven't heard much about Nero Digital though. So how is its compatibility with other players? I don't want to be stuck with something I can't use in the future. Sort of like having a floopy disc with important information but you can't read it, because floppy drives aren't sold with computers any more.

The biggest weakness with Nero Digital IS that its codec has not been adopted by many DVD player manufacturers. Avayon (www.avayon.com) sold Nero Digital players for awhile (I've bought two), but they've been out-of-stock awhile, with a diminishing product lineup, so I suspect their support is waning. That's why learning the Philips DVP3960 would play Nero Digital was a nice surprise.

VLC plays it, as, of course, does Nero Showtime, on a PC. Given the trend toward "convergence" of digital devices, I suspect hooking up a PC or other media center to a TV will keep Nero Digital viable awhile. As you suggest, no format lasts forever.

[adalect]

The biggest weakness with Nero Digital IS... their support is waning...I suspect hooking up a PC or other media center to a TV will keep Nero Digital viable awhile.

Thanks for your informative posts, CobraPilot. I appreciate it. I have a spare computer lying about, but it eats up way too much energy for my taste. My Phillips DVP3960 DivX Player uses about a tenth of the energy my computer would use to play it. And you said the support is not mainstream in the market. So I will probably not use Nero Digital.

CobraPilot, I am wondering if you have tested the max bitrate the DVP3960 can handle on DVD media. Whether the bitrate is for a DivX, Xvid, or Nero Digital file, I am curious. I believe the max bitrate limit for the Xvid files would probably be similar to the other two, since all are based on some MPEG4 standard. At least it was last time I checked. If I am totally mistaken about this, please correct me.

[CobraPilot]

The biggest weakness with Nero Digital IS... their support is waning...I suspect hooking up a PC or other media center to a TV will keep Nero Digital viable awhile.

Thanks for your informative posts, CobraPilot. I appreciate it. I have a spare computer lying about, but it eats up way too much energy for my taste. My Phillips DVP3960 DivX Player uses about a tenth of the energy my computer would use to play it. And you said the support is not mainstream in the market. So I will probably not use Nero Digital.

CobraPilot, I am wondering if you have tested the max bitrate the DVP3960 can handle on DVD media. Whether the bitrate is for a DivX, Xvid, or Nero Digital file, I am curious. I believe the max bitrate limit for the Xvid files would probably be similar to the other two, since all are based on some MPEG4 standard. At least it was last time I checked. If I am totally mistaken about this, please correct me.

No, I haven't checked max bitrates. When I've encoded to Nero Digital (and the occasional Divx), my goal was to use whatever bitrate would allow fitting on a 700mb CD, as long as the bitrate didn't go below 500 kbps (700 or better preferred). My Philips DVP3960 has played Nero Digital on CD and DVD at a variety of bitrates, decided by the length of the video being encoded.

[adalect]

No, I haven't checked max bitrates. When I've encoded to Nero Digital (and the occasional Divx), my goal was to use whatever bitrate would allow fitting on a 700mb CD, as long as the bitrate didn't go below 500 kbps (700 or better preferred). My Philips DVP3960 has played Nero Digital on CD and DVD at a variety of bitrates, decided by the length of the video being encoded.

Well, here are my XVID findings in case you are anybody else wants to know. These suggestion are according to my eyes though:

• Anime: Good bitrates that work are between 800kbps to 1500kbps on CD-R media.
• Live-actors: Bitrates higher than about 2200kbps freeze on CD-R media. 2200kbps to about 2900kbps work on DVD-R media.

I need to test higher bitrates though.

[lordsmurf]

I saw that about two years ago and wonder if it is still accurate toady. I think a bit of that guide is biased in nature: I don't know if it is founded on fear and rumours. That is why I am asking for everybody's real-life experiences and not some study.

Then let's set you straight:

• It's accurate as of March 2010.
• Biased how? No, there's no bias in any direction, it's pure statistics and analysis of tested media.
• Founded on fear and rumors? No, not at all. Fear and rumors is what you find in user forums -- these places can be good, but are often full of myth, misinformation, and guesswork bullshit. Those series of articles are based on research and reliable information.

Most people don't know crap about DVD media, so "everybody's real-life experiences" only goes so far. You'll get the full spectrum using your method --- wingnuts that insist some off-brand crap "burns just fine", to anal retentives who are biased into thinking only one brand is good (usually TY) and all other media is bad. And to top it off, you don't know enough about media to sort it all out. It's just noise.

The best media in a 100-pack is generally found in the $25-30 range in the USA -- it's about 25% higher in the rest of the world. There's quite a few deals posted at that same digitalFAQ article. Beyond that, sometimes you'll get the odd weekly or daily sale for as low as $20 per 100-pack, but it's uncommon. For printable surfaces, you'll need to look more in the $30-50 range, depending on the type of surface.

DVD-RW/DVD+RW is not archival media, it can break down in just a few months time. Don't use them for anything you need stored longer than one month. The phase-change structure is nowhere near as stable as the dye-based write-once DVD-R/DVD+R media. While data can last much longer, it's not safe to assume that it will -- and I've lost many discs, all 3 formats (-RW, +RW, -RAM) in the past 9 years. The materials can simply give out after a while.

You won't find Taiyo Yuden in the Dollar Store.

The only people who have claimed "optical media is not good for long-term storage" have already been debunked and shown to be biased/shilling for companies that sell hard drives and/or magnetic backup tapes. The truth is that well-stored/properly-handled optical media will outlast spinning hard drives and flimsy magnetic tapes -- a number of respected groups have verified this multiple times over through the years. The only place you'll read contrary information is from wingnut sites (or from those long-debunked news stories from 5 years ago).

CD-R/CD-RW does not have an upper polycarbonate (plastic) layer, so you can damage the foil easily. DVD is sandwiched and protected -- you can't chip away the foil.

Your bitrates are too low.

[adalect]

...well-stored/properly-handled optical media will outlast spinning hard drives and flimsy magnetic tapes...

Well, I was reading things elsewhere and thought over everything I have learned. Most of my videos are old TV Shows I got over the years. I already have a small collection on VHS, and am starting one for CD/DVDs.

From my life experiences, I conclude that storing important things on one type of media is not practical for storage reasons. Either the media or the reader tends to die out beforehand. For example, VHS Tapes and VCRs, Floppy Discs and Floppy Drives, and IDE Hard Drives and IDE Ports on the motherboard. So I conclude all media is prone to be faulty and I think CD/DVDs are just as prone to damage as hard drives.

I then look at my DVD Movie Collection I bought from stores over the years. I only watch a particular title for about 5 times after I bought it. Considering this, I think that having physical copies of my TV Shows may not be practical. I probably will watch it only about 5 times each, so I will end up with too many discs to store away.

So my solution: store my stuff on the hard drive on my computer. If it is lost, then oh well. I will just find something else to watch. If I want to watch it, I think I will burn it out on a DVD-/+RW to play on my DivX Player.

DVD-RW/DVD+RW is not archival media, it can break down in just a few months time... While data can last much longer, it's not safe to assume that it will...

So going with the line of thought I explained above, I read that you say the DVD-/+RWs don't last very long. For a decent one, how long should they last? I bought Memorex CD-RWs and they lasted about 3 years on me. They did not spontaneously fail; the CD-RWs showed gradual signs of failure. That way, I knew when to get replacements. If I get a decent one, will it be the same? I saw a sale for 10 DVD+RWs for $7 at Staples, and the discs are Staples brand. What do you think about it?

Your bitrates are too low.

Well, I need faster media to test faster bitrates on my player. Hence this form and the question. Anyways...

I would like to thank everybody for your help so far. You guys are way better than any paid guy at customer service!

[sambat]

I've been using Staples DVD-RW for three years.
They code out as CMCW03.
They get daily use (whichever one of the pile is handy) recording TV progs.
They were cheaper than the Maxel branded DVD-RW (OPTODISCW002), cheaper and outlasted them by two years.

[jman98]

I've been using Staples DVD-RW for three years.
They code out as CMCW03.

You do know that CMC is one of the infamous bad manufacturers, right?

Maybe you just got lucky. I'm not willing to conclude that everyone who followed your lead would get similar results though.

[lordsmurf]

From my life experiences, I conclude that storing important things on one type of media is not practical for storage reasons.

Follow a good archival policy. Two discs backups on-site, one hard drive image on-site, at least one off-site backup, be it optical or another hard drive of images.

Here's a much longer discussion on archival media solutions.

[LCSHG]

OK
Lordsmurf and I have had a difference of opinion on a number of different disks mfg
I had used Verbatim both +/-R and only +RW,But did use a very few Maxell +RW I started using The Ridata disks which Lordsmurf did not think much of. And They seemed OK for many recordings and I defended them .

It seemed his main point was Quality control and mfg. was very bad on the Ridata and a number of other disks

On another thread I said I would look into it AND DID.
The Units I use all have well working Burners and no problems. These units do take a little longer to recognize any disk and will take about 16sec for Verbatim or TY. I only used about 10- TY disks.
I checked well over 100 Rudata disks some older disks were recognized in about 16sec and seemed ok. Some disks took 30-45 sec and some took over 60 sec. but all worked ok
I didn’t trust them an transferred many to a Verbatim disk.
Lately I have had problems in finalizing a Redata disk an wrote this off to my error [operator error]. Not So, It would seem that some Ridata disks have problems and I have gone back to exclusive use of Verbatim disks Which I know are made in some different countries but the quality control seems very good. While many Ridata disks might be ok. I don’t trust them. As time permits I will transfer Most all to Verbatim Which is a loss of time and money. I buy my disks from Newegg and when on sale with no shipping charge there only about two cents more per disk than most other disks
I do not feel that there would be much differencr if any in dyes used BUT there is a Big difference in many manufactures quality control. Many [name brand] disks use a number of different manufactures. Some ok some not
Lordsmurf and others that crow did not taste good and the feathers were still on i

PS bit rates
Many try to push them to far and end up with a bum disk

[adalect]

All right. So from what everybody is saying:

• Buying DVD Media is a gamble. So like to play it safe with good brands and others are cheap and like to gamble.
• If I really care, I should have multiple backups on multiple medias in multiple places

And from my personal research and talking to other people:

• My Phillips DVP3960 is not very picky when it comes to media
• The Staples Salesman guaranteed that I can return the cheap DVD+RWs even if I tore the plastic wrap

So I think I know what I want to do know. Thanks to everybody for helping.

[overloaded_ide]

All you need to do is read this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm

Big difference between good stuff and junk.
Although you often find the best discs can be found for better prices than the garbage. Go figure.

Yep. Go figure!
I think what is happening is marketing is catching on to the fact too many people think you get what you pay for but don't know what they are buying! Therefore sell the crap at higher prices and sell more of it to people that think they get what they pay for so they buy the expensive stuff that is crap thinking if it costs more then it must be better!

[classfour]

For media - aside from the excellent advice that I've received on this site: When I open a pack of media, and the overwhelming smell of plastic overtakes my nose - it's time to scan it with DVD Identifier. LOL

If it's burnt plastic I smell - it looks like a bunch of "giveaways" - the ones you give out as "oneplays".

If it smells like peach blossoms or has no smell at all - with TY or Verbatim legit media codes - I'm home.

[sphinx99]

I saw that about two years ago and wonder if it is still accurate toady. I think a bit of that guide is biased in nature: I don't know if it is founded on fear and rumours. That is why I am asking for everybody's real-life experiences and not some study.

Then let's set you straight:

• It's accurate as of March 2010.
• Biased how? No, there's no bias in any direction, it's pure statistics and analysis of tested media.
• Founded on fear and rumors? No, not at all. Fear and rumors is what you find in user forums -- these places can be good, but are often full of myth, misinformation, and guesswork bullshit. Those series of articles are based on research and reliable information.

Most people don't know crap about DVD media, so "everybody's real-life experiences" only goes so far. You'll get the full spectrum using your method --- wingnuts that insist some off-brand crap "burns just fine", to anal retentives who are biased into thinking only one brand is good (usually TY) and all other media is bad. And to top it off, you don't know enough about media to sort it all out. It's just noise.

It would be helpful if the article cited some references to those pure statistics. I remember reading it a couple of years ago and having the same reaction: "is this just some random person on the Internet stating his/her opinions and calling it research?"

What do the % numbers mean? This list is constructed from many tests on many burners from a handful of experienced people that use a lot of media, and has been ongoing since 2001. These numbers reflect the number of discs in a spindle that will give good results.

How is this statement, without specific links to specific sample size tests, references to the number, volume and credibility of the testers, etc., any different from "founded on fear and rumors?" Unless there is a reference to the reliable research, the article is really no different from a forum post.

[LCSHG]

adalect --- quotes

From my life experiences, I conclude that storing important things on one type of media is not practical for storage reasons. Either the media or the reader tends to die out beforehand. For example, VHS Tapes and VCRs, Floppy Discs and Floppy Drives, and IDE Hard Drives and IDE Ports on the motherboard. So I conclude all media is prone to be faulty and I think CD/DVDs are just as prone to damage as hard drives.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good point but so were sticks and stones outclased by Atom Bombs I finaly had to give up on win98se and many of the drives ans connections mentioned.


Another quote

The Staples Salesman guaranteed that I can return the cheap DVD+RWs even if I tore the plastic wrap

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The StaplesSalesman may not be there the next day and if he/she was I doubt they would remember saying any such thing
Did you get it in writing to show the judge

[adalect]

Unless there is a reference to the reliable research, the article is really no different from a forum post.

Sphinx99, thanks for understanding my point of view. I thought that I was the only suspicious person here.

The Staples Salesman guaranteed that I can return the cheap DVD+RWs even if I tore the plastic wrap.

Did you get it in writing to show the judge

I once bought a pen that was twice the value of those DVD+RWs. I tore open the plastic box, and the pen turned out to be a dud. I went back to Staples to complain and return it. They accepted it without any arguments. In the same shelf I bought the pen in, I found discounted boxes which were already used.

I appreciate that you guys are very supportive and caring for my well-being, but I hope you guys understand that I don't have a lot of bucks on me. To me this is a "smart gamble." Still a gamble, nevertheless, but I really don't have the means of buying $30 discs or the like. I am quite busy right now, so in about a week or two, I will confirm whether or not the discs work.

[lordsmurf]

Unless there is a reference to the reliable research, the article is really no different from a forum post.

Private studies don't have to share the research -- they share the results (for free or for pay)
Consider this analogy:
Software companies don't have to give out their source code -- they share the end product (for free or for pay)

without specific links

This is ridiculous. When NASA discusses their findings, do you demand they give links for their source? THEY ARE THE SOURCE! At some point in time, you reach the ultimate source, there is nothing more to link to.