VHS to DVD - I have a PVR250, but considering something else. Thoughts??

[mjvgiese]

I'm starting to transfer our vhs home videos to dvd. I don't have a fancy set up, just a plain ol' sony vcr hooked up to a Hauppauge PVR-250, which is of course a hardware mpeg2 encoder. I haven't gotten real deep into the project yet though, and I'm starting to toy with the idea of a different capture card, one that is not mpeg2 only.

I'm at a point where I've done some tests with different settings and bitrates, and if I stick with my current setup I'm going to have to split my 2hr tapes onto 2 dvds. I've tried both 720x480 and 352x480 with lower bitrates that would allow for 2hrs on a dvd, but annoyingly enough I am able to spot the lower quality difference. So if I stick with my current setup, I'll be capturing 720x480 with about a 9100 cbr bitrate, which gets me a bit more than an hour on a dvd. I'm totally aware that this is probably considered way overkill for vhs, but honestly I just can't get results I'm happy with if I lower the bitrate or resolution.

I'm wondering if I would likely be better off if I had a capture card that gave me .avi files that I would encode with TMPG, rather than the mpeg2 that my PVR-250 gives me. (If this is the case, could you give me any card recommendations?) I just see tons of posts where people say they get great results with their 2hr vhs tape transfers onto a single dvd and it makes me wonder....because as I said, I'm not super happy with the results I get by putting 2hrs on a dvd.

Maybe it's just a case of me expecting too much without shelling out a bunch of money, which I can't. But I'm getting some blocks (not extreme, but they are still there, and especially when I go for 2hrs on a single dvd) on white walls that are in the background, etc, and I'm just thinking this is not normal.
Anyone care to offer any thoughts or suggestions at all?

[hech54]

VHS quality will never be DVD quality.
It's like taking a nude picture of Rosanne Barr but with a 33MP, medium format
$20,000 digital camera. She'll still be overweight and ugly cause the extra megapixels
won't make her less overweight and ugly.

[lowellriggsiam]

Nero recode does a realitively good job of making large video files fit well on DVD, so probably would convertx2dvd. Try the demo versions out. In my case I have a Panasonic ES40V and direct dub my home movies. If I wanted to edit them I can dub to DVD-RAM and edit the .vro file.

[victoriabears]

I am largely transferring PAL vhs recordings which are very well recorded and well stored and have survived very well.

For instance I am just transferring a 1999 recording and using a JVC s-vhs vcr 8700/8965 or a Panasonic hs-930 or sv-121 through a tbc 1000 or avt 8710 to a jvc m100 dvd recorder at 1hr or 1hr 30 FR and the picture quality is astounding.

[edDV]

VHS noise is the quality killer for MPeg encoders. Ideally one would low pass filter luminance, TBC (h timebase jitter is detected as motion) and noise reduce before encoding to MPeg2. No "capture card" does this until you get over the $800 range.

Uncompressed (to huffyuv or Lagarith "lossless" codecs) avoids interframe compression until after software noise reduction.

DV also captures to frames but with 5x intraframe DCT compression.

[victoriabears]

I am going through my 500 + vhs tapes at last !! and came across one that as a nice picture image but was may be recorded when antenna signal was not 100% so is a bit noisy, I recorded a section jvc 8965 thru avt 8710 to jvc m100 dvd recorder and then played it on a pioneer 420 dvd player to a 46 inch sony lcd, both of which do have noise reduction, the improvement was sufficient for me to be happy, very watchable, which is after all what we seek?

Just try the simple first.

[jagabo]

ATI Theater 650 can capture raw YUY2 and has a good 3d comb filter:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313735-Capture-card-for-Laserdisc-and-VHS-Good-card...=1#post1940519

[lordsmurf]

Nero recode does a realitively good job of making large video files fit well on DVD, so probably would convertx2dvd. Try the demo versions out. In my case I have a Panasonic ES40V and direct dub my home movies. If I wanted to edit them I can dub to DVD-RAM and edit the .vro file.

Transcoding homemade MPEGs is devastating to the quality.
Those programs were designed to work with near-perfect retail sources, that can handle the lossy nature of the process.

[lordsmurf]

ATI Theater 650 can capture raw YUY2

With what software? Not Catalyst -- it only does high bitrate MPEG-2 with Catalyst. I have the USB2 650 stick. What do I need to be looking at running for YUY2. I must've missed it.

[usually_quiet]

@mjvgiese If you want a new card with the 650 theater chip, Fry's website has the PCI-E and USB versions of the Diamond/ATI TV Wonder HD 650 Combo tv tuner on sale for $39.99, plus shipping. There are no Fry's anywhere near me so I can't say whether the in-store prices are different.

I ordered the PCI-E version and have had it installed for a week. I have not tried uncompressed captures, just a few captures using the hardware MPEG-2 encoder to record from an STB. It looks pretty good to me, though of course I had a cleaner source than VHS tape.

I don't think it's possible to capture uncompressed using the included Catalyst Media Center application. From what I remember in other threads, graphedit is the preferred way to go for that.

[edDV]

I don't think it's possible to capture uncompressed using the included Catalyst Media Center application. From what I remember in other threads, graphedit is the preferred way to go for that.

Interesting to hear of the $39 Fry's sale. I need a USB tuner for my laptop.

I struggled with capture using my PCI Theatrix 550 for a year. The 3D comb filter sounded nice but even with graphedit tweaking, capture quality never got above average.

It finally got demoted to routine PVR tuner duty under Windows MCE. A huge let down.

[jagabo]

ATI Theater 650 can capture raw YUY2

With what software?

With VirtualDub, apparently. I don't know if the USB versions support it. It might be limited to the PCI(e) versions.

[usually_quiet]

I don't think it's possible to capture uncompressed using the included Catalyst Media Center application. From what I remember in other threads, graphedit is the preferred way to go for that.

Interesting to hear of the $39 Fry's sale. I need a USB tuner for my laptop.

I struggled with capture using my PCI Theatrix 550 for a year. The 3D comb filter sounded nice but even with graphedit tweaking, capture quality never got above average.

It finally got demoted to routine PVR tuner duty under Windows MCE. A huge let down.

The USB version I saw on the website is not a stick. It's one of these http://www.diamondmm.com/TVW650USB.php

The digital tuner on my card needs a strong, steady signal to work. It's definitely not as good at tuning ATSC signals as the tuner in one of the better coupon-eligible converter boxes. I fared much worse with QAM. Windows 7 Media Center could not detect a QAM tuner, but I had it scan for channels anyway and manually configured the channel list. It only detected 7 channels and they broke up frequently. Afterwards. I borrowed a 2007 portable CRT TV with a digital tuner to test the connection, and it found over 60 clear QAM channels.

[Edit] I almost bought one of these instead of the ATI TV Wonder 650 http://www.buy.com/prod/avermedia-avertv-hybrid-volar-max-usb-tv-tuner/q/loc/101/212691676.html This version doesn't come with Avermedia's PVR software, and it's been modified from the standard so it won't work with Avermedia's PVR software, if you already own it.

[lordsmurf]

ATI Theater 650 can capture raw YUY2

With what software?

With VirtualDub, apparently. I don't know if the USB versions support it. It might be limited to the PCI(e) versions.

Well son of a ...... it works.

I tried VirtualDub back in December, and it did not work.
It may have been that one specific computer. It's perfectly fine in VirtualDub on this laptop.

Testing time. I know how I'm spending my otherwise boring night.
update -- tests all pass -- very nice

[vhelp]

hi usually_quiet, do you have a direct link to fry's 650 ? Seeing your $39 dollar post I now think its worth the steal and time waisted in testing this card. I have a $50 gift card I've been meaning to use up. If I get one and test it out and find that it performs better then the card below, I'll post back when I find the time.

So far, I am claiming the hvr-2250 as the best card for vhs, satellite tv, and laserdisc. I've been reviewing this card for the last month or so. The Winfast TV2000 XP card is tie with the 2250 in terms of laserdisc performance. Both these cards have excellent comb filters. Of course, mileage will vary from laserdisc player to player, age and condition, and so on and so forth. And, last, my long term champ, the Pinnacle Studio AV/DV card, came in Third, and was great for vhs, gave very clean results when using its composite connection thanks to a great comb filter vs the svideo in that medium.

In case anyone is considering, the hvr-2250 does uncompressed captures if used in virtualdub using hauppauges latest capture driver at their website. I don't have a link, and my dialog is just too slow these days to go searching around for it unless you have a direct link. The drivers on the included cd does not work in vdub. It will show the driver/chipset but only give you a black screen. Download their latest driver and vdub will work perfectly. I've been using it for all my analog capturing to 1TB external usb drives ever sense. It'll prob be your last GREAT analog capture card before they give it and cripple you into poor quality HD (DMR defaulted) cards.

For what its worth..

When the content is personal, priceless, home video, these deserve unconditional care, and that means, uncompressed avi. DV and/or MPEG is just not right for this type of video, period. The demand is absolute perfection, limited only by our available equipment: having a well balanced set of equipment and tools, coupled with knowledge and skill, and the "eye" for insight, will result in the best production.

For 1TB hdd's, it no longer matters to me if I capture in uncompressed or lossless or other format, especially if i'm aiming at encoding to another format for playback purposes. But for priceless content having a 1TB external hdd would be a wise move. Buy two drives, one for every day captures and another for personal priceless stuff that you can archive to and file away somewhere.

But, for general video aquasitions, I find that using a DV codec is suitable enough in my directv captures. When something really pertinent is at hand I will use uncompressed (raw) or lossless codecs, like huffy or lagarith, though lagarith mainly on account of its smaller filesize.

-vhelp 5337

[usually_quiet]

hi usually_quiet, do you have a direct link to fry's 650 ? Seeing your $39 dollar post I now think its worth the steal and time waisted in testing this card. I have a $50 gift card I've been meaning to use up. If I get one and test it out and find that it performs better then the card below, I'll post back when I find the time.

USB http://www.frys.com/product/6124759?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

PCI-E http://www.frys.com/product/6119069?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

[mjvgiese]

Wow, lots of replies! That Diamond ATI 650 card from Fry's actually does look like a good deal, but truthfully, I wouldn't know a 650 chip from any other if it bit me , but I take it this chipset is good. I took a look on the card manufacturers website (diamond) for specifications, and it says hardware MPEG-2 compression, is this really any different from what my PVR-250 hardware mpeg2 encoder is? (I'm sorry, it's late and my terms are a bit fuzzy.) I'm assuming that it does ouput .avi files, correct? And what would the compression options be, and the file size for say 1hr or 2hr files? I don't really want to deal with raw uncompressed, but I think I could deal with something like Huffy or similar, although I've never used it before.

My goal is to get these vhs tapes on DVD, so that is my target format. (I'm not opposed to keeping my original .avi captured files for archiving, although I wasn't originally planning on it.) My main question at this point, is: Would my captures be better with a card such as this, encoded with TMPG and put to DVD, rather than my current PVR-250 captures that I put straight on DVD? Would I be able to get 2hrs of nice quality onto a DVD with a new card, as opposed to only 1hr per DVD that I'm doing now because of quality issues?

[jagabo]

Using third party software it's possible to bypass the the hardware MPEG 2 compressor on the ATI Theater 650 devices. If you look closely at your PVR-250 caps you'll see they are full of macroblocks. Even if you caputure at 15,000 kbps there is a little macroblocking. Bypassing the MPEG 2 encoder will avoid this.

Capturing uncompressed YUY2 video at 720x480 will give files that run about 75 GB/hr. Lossless HuffYUV compression will reduce the files to about half that (exactly how much compression you get will depend on how clean the source is). You the work from that pristine source to perform any filtering.

If you're going to DVD, you'll have to convert to MPEG 2 in the end. But if you need to do any filtering you're better off doing it before any MPEG compression. You'll also find that the best software MPEG 2 encoders (not TMPGEnc) are better than the hardware MPEG 2 encoder on the PVR-250.

If you're capturing composite video there is also the issue of dot crawl artifacts. The PVR-250 has a 2d dot crawl filter. The ATI cards have a 3d filter and do significantly better.

To get 2 hours of VHS material on a DVD you're going to need an S-VHS deck with a line time base corrector and noise reduction. An S-VHS deck would be your single best investment as far as quality is concerned.

[danno78]

At 40 $ is almost free. Even at this low price many of you are very demandig.
For all analogue format the player have a the first and important role in the final quality. Get a better VCR if want quality, second change the way you process the tapes. Follow the advice given at previous post.
With good software encoders will find that a 2 hours is better than 1 hour encoded on the fly with hardware encoders. Don`t buy ATI because may have a better hardware encoder. You will be disappointed. All consumer hardware encoder are inferior to software encoders and with today cpu power encoding at SD resolution is faster then real time. Hardware encoder was a nice feature when CPU were weak. Today are still good for talk show. Ati Theatre 650 is a bit better because process in smarter way the signal before this hit the encoder.

[vhelp]

I'm starting to transfer our vhs home videos to dvd.

mjvgiese, can you give us an idea of your current vcr quality aspects ? ..so we can strongly recommend looking into a better vcr, and possible a new capture card.

some questions come to mind:

* when you say "home video" do you mean someone used a video camera (vid8, hi8, older)
* you said "vhs home video" did someone copy them to a vcr, hence vhs home video ?
* and that is what you now have left to work with ?
* how was the source copied to the tapes: composite or svideo, and any other equip ?

Home video may mean many things, like current hd (consumer type) cams, or slightly later, dv cams, or even later, video 8 or hi8 or 8mm cams, or even later 8mm/16mm reals. For instance, my oldest format is 8mm cassettes. To me, home video means non tripod and shaky hands, the enemy of most codec format like mpeg for example.

1.0 Source Origin Knowing history and other details about the videos is beneificial. Where did it originate from ? Did someone take home video footage, if so, what camera and media source ? And, is it still available ? Or, did someone transfer (copy) it to a vhs tape: how was it obtain by what connectors, svideo or composite ? vcr make/model ? and how old is it, storage, and so on. All these things help us to understand your situation and a possible game plan.

2.0 The vcr* is the most criticle piece of hardware, next come a TBC, and then the capture equipment. Throw in a few other pieces of equiment and you can stretch a bit further in features and functions, but that is usually left to a more knowledged person in that part of the process.

2.1 There are several types of TBC's, line based and full frame, are a few, and each have their purposes, strengths and weakness.

2.2 Next, the capture card. Another criticle piece of equipment. These come with speicalized chipset that deal with the video signal, including filtering it in some cases. Some videos do better over composite than svideo, and vise versa. The xyz comb filter can be a key element in the process if composite is used. Although most of these cards do not comb filter over the svideo pathway-per say, I believe some cards actually do entail some type of comb filtering if not then a specialized filtering. For instance, on one of my dv cams, it entails an svideo filter of some sort, and a very good one. These are specialized filter circuits over svideo. So its important to test both connector types and review the image detail for any perceavable flaws or determine which one looks cleanest, smoothest, and so on.

(Guaging: A good though basic test for this is to use TMPGenc and set it to CQ encode mode, set min as: 2000 and 9000 and encode a short segment of the composite and then svideo each separately. The one that encodes to smallest filesize is the one that entails the least amount of noise, at least noise perceived by the mpeg encoder, the enemy of mpeg. The point is, this gives you a rough idea of how much noise is actaully in the composite vs sivdeo captures, if you don't trust your eyes, that is)

3.0 The other important aspect in this transfer process is the editing. How do you import your obtained source and process it: color space, sample format, also, cutting, cropping, filtering, segmenting/stitching pieces together, and so on. Its criticle to work in lowest level format, avi in this juncture: uncompress, or lossless (compression: huffy or lagarith) are best choices. If you throw in an MPEG2 as the work source then things can get a little complicated because of the initial preporation to receive/work with it: like color space conversions and navigating through the frame sequences, so on.

4.0 The destination format is also important but not criticle, but it helps so that you process optimumly in each format, be it mpeg or h264 or any other, if any. Authoring falls into this catagory but can present a problem if media brand is not considered, and can mislead you into believing that your encoding process is flaud somewhere in that chain. I prefer to stay away from media unless handouts to family and friends is a part of the process.

Although hardware mpeg (and dv) cards have their place, when it comes to home video, priceless video, etc., it is critcle to get the best results, and that requires a slight change from old practices that are not optimum for this source medium. Analog capturing is the true and only way to go. The reality is, this aquisition leaves far to many macroblocks or pixelations, as jagabo noted, this is all too true. In dv (when using the advc and other devices) the macroblocks are much smaller and many. I used to say leave the advc out of the loop when medium is vhs. I still stand by that recommendation.

Anyway, all these things and more can help us better understand your disposition and point you closer to your goals.

If you want more details than what we just gave, then head over to LS website where he dedicates even more info on this process

-vhelp 5340

[edDV]

We have been talking about the ATI 650 vs. PVR-250 in the context of VHS/SVHS capture. In that role the ATI 650 is incrementally better for Y/C separation from composite source (i.e. 3D comb filter) but that is irrelevant for S-Video Y/C source in which Y and C are already separate. Still the 3D comb filter is nice for composite sources or off air capture.

Second, the ATI can capture YUY2 bypassing the MPeg2 encoder using third party software but this needs a guide because it is complex. Once captured to disk as uncompressed YUY2 or compressed Huffyuv, many editors can be used.

Third, the hardware Mpeg2 encoder may be slightly better (or worse). I haven't seen a comparison.

Further, the 3D comb filter should give better tuner performance when capturing NTSC or PAL broadcasts.

The remaining main advantage of the ATI 650 is it's ATSC/QAM* high definition tuner. It can tune digital broadcasts and transfer the MPeg2 stream to a hard disk file. Plus when used with an adequate CPU/GPU + PVR software combination, it can act as an HD "tivo" with buffered time shifting.


* DVB for PAL models.

[usually_quiet]

There's also this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815306019 for a little more money. The Theater 750 chip has no hardware encoder, but the same 3D comb filters as the 650. In some ways it is more versatile than the various Theater 650 devices, but reviews are not as numerous or favorable.

In the end I didn't get one because I couldn't find out enough about it, particularly tuner performance, plus the sale at Fry's was too good to pass up, and a hardware encoder would provide a surer path for time-shifting TV using an STB as the source, considering my CPU and GPU.

Possibly none of my concerns would apply to anyone capturing VHS tapes. It might be very good for that, but I was more interested in time-shifting TV.

[mjvgiese]

I'll try to answer as many questions as I can, but I may miss some.
The videos I want to transfer were recorded from 10 to 20 years ago with one of those big cameras that recorded right onto the VHS video. Recorded in SP mode, and these are the original tapes, not copies. No tripod was used, the camera was one of those big ones that rested on your shoulder. Videos range from birthday partys, family christmas gatherings, elementary school programs, outdoor parades, etc, etc.

My vcr is just a plain Sony vcr, nothing fancy. I can't remember the model number right now, but I'm guessing that doesn't matter since this is not an SVHS deck.
Honestly, I'd really like to get by without getting a new vcr or a tbc. I realize I won't get "perfection" without these two pieces, and I accept that and am okay with that at this point. But I feel that even keeping my vcr and going without a tbc, I should still be able to get better results than I am currently, and I'm hoping non mpeg2 captures with a new card would help me achieve this. I definitely don't want uncompressed captures, but huffy or lagarith captures would be fine.
(As a side note, I saw some JVC SR-V101 SVHS decks on ebay that say they are TBC's, and are a reasonable cost. If this is an accepted machine, I am not 100% opposed to it at these reasonable prices, however, I would still like to try things with my current vcr first.)

I'm curious about this ATI 650 card...if we are talking about bypassing the hardware mpeg encoding, would it not be easier to get a card where complex bypassing is not involved?
Also, I'm not concerned with capturing live broadcasts from tv, I have a dish dvr and that pretty much takes care of me. When I want to save something off it (which is extremly rare), I just do a capture of it.

One more thing...it was mentioned that TMPG is not the best software encoder. Which encoders would be better than TMPG?

[vhelp]

The lossless huffy or lagarith will do fine then in your case.

Your process would be capture card -> avi -> {editor} -> encoder[HCenc]

Some mpeg encoders do better at lower bitrates but in your case you'll need a much higher bitrate stragety, so best encoders will not matter so much here but rather how you set it up, bitrate-wise, interlace, and so on.

HCenc is a popular mpeg2 encoder. But it requires an avs script and yv12 color space as input, so use convertToYV12() as your last color space if you use this encoder, and set encode for interlace. Shoot for around +/- 9000MBits bitrate if possible.

TMPGenc is another good encoder specially once you're in the higher bitrates, then most other weights (which is better) mean next to nothing.

I'm sure that the main drive for your latest direction is to just get an electronic version fast and simple. That is how most people start out in this endeavor. Later, you can improve results with additional equipment.

Someone said that that the ATI 650 does do uncompressed (or, lossless, same thing in the end) avi via a few steps, hack for short. However, I don't think its all that complicate and you shouldn't let that impead your goals. Someone already posted a few links (few posts above) to different models under $60 bucks.

Still, there is also the hauppauge HVR-2250 PCI-e card, no hack required, just a download of their latest driver from their website and you should be good to go, capture'wise through virtualdub--don't use their wintv suite if you want avi because all it does is hardware mpeg. Course, this is if you decide on this card. It is a hardware mpeg card but also does uncompress avi, it is just not mentioned in the specs nor website.
You can pick one up at Bestbuy, current price their, I think, is $149 dollars, for the MCE package, it comes with a nice remote and a few other gizmos.

I'll let others chime in regarding your latest information.

-vhelp 5341

[jagabo]

It's possible to capture raw YUY2 video from the Hauppauge PVR-250 but you have to use a program like GraphEdit and construct your own capture graph to capture from the preview pins.

I use HcEnc via HcGUI for my MPEG 2 encoding these days. You'll need to learn basic AviSynth scripting but that's pretty straight forward.

[edDV]

It just occurred to me that the USB version of this card will be near its transfer limits to capture uncompressed. Theoretical USB2 480 Mb/s real world tops about half that in a straight file copy. Uncompressed 8 bit 4:2:2 calculates out to around 170 Mb/s + audio and padding. SMPTE 259M defines 10 bit 4:2:2 video with 8 PCM audio channels as 270 Mb/s.

Bottom line uncompressed 8 bit video is near the USB2 limit without much safety margin. Mpeg2 would be well within limits. The PCIe x1 slot version has lots of headroom (>2000 Mb/s).

[jagabo]

It just occurred to me that the USB version of this card will be near its transfer limits to capture uncompressed.

I've always wondered if that would be a problem with uncompressed YUV USB capture devices. Nobody seems to be complaining though.

[danno78]

It seems that Theater 750 (Diamond Theater HD 750 USB version) does work well on USB interface with Lagarith. With Theater 650 should be the same thing. Uncompressed output is not RGB, is compressed in YUV2 color space, so require less bandwidth.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313735-Capture-card-for-Laserdisc-and-VHS-Good-card...=1#post1959930

[edDV]

It just occurred to me that the USB version of this card will be near its transfer limits to capture uncompressed.

I've always wondered if that would be a problem with uncompressed YUV USB capture devices. Nobody seems to be complaining though.

The older low end USB capture devices cheated the quality by first limiting resolution to 320x240 and then down sampling chroma to webcam spec. When USB2 came along, resolution was increased 640x480 to 720x576 but I suspect there are still chroma sampling tricks and/or some kinds of format compression. The USB driver can convert back to YUY2.

[edDV]

It seems that Theater 750 (Diamond Theater HD 750 USB version) does work well on USB interface with Lagarith. With Theater 650 should be the same thing. Uncompressed output is not RGB, is compressed in YUV2 color space, so require less bandwidth.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313735-Capture-card-for-Laserdisc-and-VHS-Good-card...=1#post1959930

Unless the 750 is pre-compressing, the Lagarith compression comes after the USB transfer. Don't forget audio adds to the YUY2 video bitrate.