Need Help Encoding Quality Web Vid

[MAtkins]

Hi:

I'm using a Panasonic HDC-HS300 High Definition camera.
I'm shooting at it's highest quality 1920x1080i setting.
I bring that file into Adobe Premiere CS4.
I need to crop the vid then resize it for Web use (about 320x240).
Every time I export from Premiere I get a very low quality video.
I have a competitor who has the same size vids as me and the quality is superb.
I have tried every combination of Codecs & Settings I can think of.
I cannot figure out how to get anywhere near the same quality.

Here is a Web page I made up to show you my problem:
http://www.sizzelicks.com/vidproblems.htm

Please let me know how to get high quality vids for Web use.

[Baldrick]

You could export the video in premiere to uncompressed video, then use a separate converter like convert to mp4 h264 with handbrake, xvid4psp and see how it looks like.

And try always make the resolution/size even dividable by 16 like 320x240, 160x120,160x146, etc. It works best for most codecs.

And maybe also zoom in when you record so you don't have to crop the video. Better source format(higher resolution) means better quality

[Soopafresh]

And try always make the resolution/size even dividable by 16 like 320x240, 160x120,160x146, etc. It works best for most codecs.

Very important

[MAtkins]

This helped a whole lot. THANKS!
HandBrake completely blew Adobe's Encoder out of the water.

I ended up with an m4v file though.
It looks great but I don't know how browser compatible it is or how to 'safely' get it embeded into html.
Any ideas?

[edDV]

Looks like you failed to deinterlace before you cropped that vid. For export format, wmv will work. Flash is an alternative.

[Baldrick]

This helped a whole lot. THANKS!
HandBrake completely blew Adobe's Encoder out of the water.

I ended up with an m4v file though.
It looks great but I don't know how browser compatible it is or how to 'safely' get it embeded into html.
Any ideas?

Rename it to mp4 and use together with web flash player like flow player.

[MAtkins]

Thanks for all your help.

I've been fighting with this for days.
I've been programming HTML, Javascript, VBScript, ASP.NET C#, PHP, XML . . . for 15+ years.
I still have Premiere 4.1 from way back when.

This is unreal. I can't get FlowPlayer to load the mp4 file (or anything else).
I tried SWFObject & QTObject as well.
Admittedly, I'm having trouble finding the available params for the objects.

Is there *any* way I can create an flv file that has the quality I get from Handbrake?
The mp4 looks fine. If I could just get that into an flv file I think I'd have it.
Here is what I'm trying to do:
http://www.sizzelicks.com/VidProblems.htm (added a screen cap of the mp4 w/ my new split vid).

[poisondeathray]

Flowplayer should be able to play .mp4 files without a problem and JW Player can for sure. Check out their documentation for the syntax for embedding

You can re-wrap it into flv with ffmpeg, but you have to inject metadata or it won't play in flash right away until downloaded. You could use flvtool2 , flvtool++, yamdi or flvmdi to do this

ffmpeg -i input.mp4 -vcodec copy -acodec copy output.flv

Your "competitor" likely uses a better deinterlacer than you, or shot native progressive footage; there is no aliasing or left over jaggies (look at the guitar strings) compared to yours. Adobe has a low quality deinterlacer. If you want to see relevant comparison shots
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/309073-SD-Interlaced-Footage-for-Flash-Broadcast?p=...=1#post1904431

[MAtkins]

Thanks for the reply.
Apparantly, Adobe has a low quality everything. They used to be a good company.
I thought Premiere was the industry standard.
What software works better than Premiere?

Is there something that can deinterlace (and yes I did notice the strings) AND encode?
So far, Premiere is proving to be crap.

Does an industry standard vid editing software package exist? If so, does it really work?

[poisondeathray]

Thanks for the reply.
Apparantly, Adobe has a low quality everything. They used to be a good company.
I thought Premiere was the industry standard.
What software works better than Premiere?

Is there something that can deinterlace (and yes I did notice the strings) AND encode?
So far, Premiere is proving to be crap.

Does an industry standard vid editing software package exist? If so, does it really work?

No "industry standard package" or perfect swiss army knife. All products have pros/cons , strengths/weaknesses. The problem is finding out the quirks and working around them. Premiere is great for some things, but has weaknesses in some areas, same with every other NLE

Often free & open source solutions provide better solutions for parts of various workflows, as is the case here, but there is no great open source NLE. One of the big benefits of paid software is integration and ease of use, well designed GUI's.

You will find all paid deinterlacers (even plugins that cost ~$500, believe me, I've tried them) worse than some avisynth based solutions which are free.

Is there something that can deinterlace (and yes I did notice the strings) AND encode?

Sort of. Solutions based on avisynth and x264 encoder would be able to do this, but often the packaged deinterlacers in the GUI's use a lower quality one by default. Higher quality deinterlacers take more CPU power (ie. slow). If you learn avisynth basics, it's not a problem because it's just very simple code (like 1 or 2 lines), and you can specify a different deinterlacer

I haven't tested handbrake's deinterlacing algorithm, it might give ok results

EDIT: I just checked: xvid4psp has yadifmod+nnedi2 as an option (which was the one I used in that example that gives decent quality) so that should give you better results than adobe

[edDV]

You can do it in Premiere Pro. Assuming you are using a 1920x1080i/29.97 project setting, export to 1920x1080p/29.97 uncompressed and re-import into a 1920x1080p/29.97 project. Then crop and/or resize as you desire, then encode.

[poisondeathray]

You can do it in Premiere Pro. Assuming you are using a 1920x1080i/29.97 project setting, export to 1920x1080p/29.97 uncompressed and re-import into a 1920x1080p/29.97 project. Then crop and/or resize as you desire, then encode.

But the problem with PP is the deinterlacing quality. See the link in my earlier post above for a comparison shot

[MAtkins]

I really do appreciate your help:

I'm trying to learn avisynth but so far to no avail.
I created an .avs file and entered 1 line of code:

AviSource("c:\Vids\AMajorOpen.avi")

Both the .avs file & the AMajorOpen.avi are in the c:\Vids folder.
I tried to open the .avs file in both Windows Media Player & VirtualDub but neither will open the .avs file at all.

I am running Windows 7 64 bit. VirtualDub 64bit runs fine and runs the AMajorOpen.avi file but won't run the .avs file.

I tried installing the x264 encoder but it apparantly doesn't like Windows 7 64 bit.

I'm stumped.

[lordsmurf]

Pre-deinterlace in something else -- don't expect Premiere or Vegas or FCP to do that task very well.

[poisondeathray]

What is your avi file? uncompressed avi export from PP? 1920x1080i60? or some other codec and format? use mediainfo if you don't know.

Do you have recent avisynth version installed? it's 32-bit and gets installed in syswow64

Most people use 32-bit vdub as well

[MAtkins]

The project is AVHCD 1920x108i I'm not sure what the 60 stands for but that is what the project in PP was set up as.
The export was 'Uncompressed Microsoft AVI' but the size is 720x480 progressive 25fps.
I don't see a way to preserve the original size or the interlaced state in any of the export options.

vdub does open my avi but I'm not sure what you mean by 'natively'.
I did install the 64 bit version. Maybe I should install the 32 bit instead?

I have Avisynth 2.5 but I must be missing something.
In the Program Files folder I only see documentation and a few sample scripts.
There isn't any bin folder or exe files (after I installed /w the installation exe) or anything like that.
I don't see any reference to 32 or 64 bit.
It just looks like docs & sample scripts.

[MAtkins]

I think I'm in a NO GO VORTEX!

I installed xVid4psp. It installed and opened with no problem.
I tried to open my AMajorOpen.avi file and got an error "FFMpegSource: 'Video Codec Not Found'"

[poisondeathray]

The project is AVHCD 1920x108i I'm not sure what the 60 stands for but that is what the project in PP was set up as.
The export was 'Uncompressed Microsoft AVI' but the size is 720x480 progressive 25fps.
I don't see a way to preserve the original size or the interlaced state in any of the export options.

vdub does open my avi but I'm not sure what you mean by 'natively'.
I did install the 64 bit version. Maybe I should install the 32 bit instead?

I have Avisynth 2.5 but I must be missing something.
In the Program Files folder I only see documentation and a few sample scripts.
There isn't any bin folder or exe files (after I installed /w the installation exe) or anything like that.
I don't see any reference to 32 or 64 bit.
It just looks like docs & sample scripts.

I missed that you said vdub opens the avi, ignore my earlier comment

Install Avisynth 2.5.8 which is the lastest stable version , in the options make sure you do the full install (IIRC, there are other options)

You can't resize vertically before deinterlacing, it will become a big mess

Best thing to do is export uncompressed AVI, but change the size to your original 1920x1080i60, 60 fields per second. I'll post a screenshot in a sec

[poisondeathray]

Make sure you are on the output tab in AME to see the preview.

In the video tab select none for the codec, and rest of the settings as in the screenshot. If it was on some other preset, you have to change the hottext back to the original settings (ie. 1920x1080 instead of 720x480)

Are you in PAL land? was it 50i or 60i ? if PAL, then change rate to 25fps, not 29.97fps. That is 25 frames per second or 50 fields per second. All HD formats are upper field first

[MAtkins]

OK I see this and got it exported OK. Thanks.

Can I crop it w/out resizing it before I do this?
I mean crop the clips not the whole vid.
Basically, I've got a vid of me playing and I chop it into 2 pieces (strum & chord fingering).
Can I do that without damaging anything?

[poisondeathray]

You can only crop interlaced content in multiples of 4; progressive content there are no limitations. But I'm not sure if Adobe has the interlaced cropping down correctly...

As suggested earlier, video works best in multiples of 16, because that's the size of the macroblocks for most common compression types

You never answered if you were in PAL land (Europe) , that's important for setting up the project and your export settings. ( If your footage was 50i vs. 60i)

Personally , (if you project is progressive for web only), I would do as smurf suggested above, and deinterlace beforehand (and perhaps resize before too) encoding to a digital intermediate - there is another reason for this too, another quirk/bug. Native AVCHD and h.264 formats (even native progressive 24pN) have an interlaced chroma bug in PPCS4 (and FCP seems to have this behaviour too, and vegas to a lesser extent). By using a different decoder, you can avoid this bug

[MAtkins]

OK, I've exported the vid - total size is 1920x1080, settings exactly as you show above.
xVid4psp can open it now. It looks worse in there than in the Premiere preview.
It looks like this:

[MAtkins]

I needed to mention that the 'hands' are original size & shape, the 'crop' just cut out the rest of me & the guitar & added the background graphic.

[MAtkins]

I found a way to make Avisynth work. XVid4PSP can read it and can even make WMP play it.
Back to avisynth school.
You did mention that I might be able to at least deinterlace in XVid4PSP. Guess I'll need to read those docs too . . .

Without you all, I'd be in deep trouble Thanks again.

[poisondeathray]

Im unclear as to what you did or how you took that screenshot (is there a bunch of black borders?)

If you want a side by side composition, you should do that in premiere, the editor, not AME the encoder

Can you also state how you got avisynth to work (because others might have similar issues)

I edited my post above as well with info on how I would approach this

[MAtkins]

The problem is that I start with a 1920x1080i AVCHD file from the camera. I think it's 60i, not 50i. The PP project is set up for 60i.
That vid includes the whole length of the guitar + more height than I need.

I want just what you see above. If I remove the cropping you'll see the whole guitar as one object.
So, I created the background graphic at 1040 x 640 in Photoshop to comply w/ the 16 multiple rule.
I made that graphic so it would gracefully 'hold' the left & right hand vids on the guitar.
In Premiere I made the graphic = Video 1, copy 1 of the guitar = Video 2 and copy 2 of the guitar = Video 3.
I cropped Video 2 so you could only see the right hand and then cropped Video 3 so you could only see the left hand.
I moved them to fit into the squares in the background graphic.

The whole vid is 1920x1080 so everything outside the background & cropped vids is just black.
Now I need to loose the black (crop it out) and downsize the remaining vid to 368x272 (again multiples of 16) to get the final result.

I never get the easy projects ya know?

How can I deinterlace beforehand?
I guess I could create a project in Premiere, export to full AVI, deinterlace in XVid4PSP and then take it back into Premiere to do all the cropping, etc. ??

[poisondeathray]

How did you take the screenshot? I see a tiny active image, but it's surrounded by black borders ? Did you resize it? Again, you can't resize interlaced content with a straight resize - you will get horrible artifacts. (you can only resize in horizontal dimension before deinterlacing)

If this is only for web, you could simplify your process by deinterlacing, resizing to something smaller , and crop, all in avisynth then import that into a custom sized sequence setting. If you know the final export will be 368x272 size, you could make your sequence that size - that is your "background". And you would export 368x272 as well.

To deinterlace before , you use avisynth + some encoder. It could be virtualdub, it could be xvid4psp, anyhting. You might use uncompressed AVI, or huffyuv if you want lossless compression. You could even use the premiere avs import plugin and don't even need an intermediate file. (Premiere just opens up the .avs file as it appears to premiere as a "video", thats what a frameserver does)

Your script might look like this:

LoadPlugin("PATH\yadifmod.dll")
LoadPlugin("PATH\nnedi2.dll")
AVISource("video.avi")
YadifMod(order=1,mode=0, edeint=NNEDI2(field=1))
LanczosResize(640,272)
#Crop(0,0,0,0)

This will give you 29.97fps if you had 60i footage, and it was resized to 640x272 , change it to whatever you think works for you. The crop values are left at 0 in this example , and commented out (#) which does nothing.

You could either crop in avisynth or premiere. You might want to do final touches on the crop in premiere when you position the 2 videos side by side. Now that the assets are progressive, and the project is progressive, there is no fear of cropping, resizing etc....

If premiere does the crops correctly, you might be able to salvage what you've done already, but exporting it, then doing the final crop and resize after deinterlacing. I personally wouldn't take that chance

[MAtkins]

The screenshot is what I see in premiere's preview. I just did a print screen into Photoshop cropped & out the rest of Premiere's interface. I didn't resize anything in Premiere. The 'tiny active image' is 1040x640, the background & vids as described above (sorry, I can't seem to find a way to explain it better than above).

Per your script above, would I resize before I crop? Again, I'll need to crop the really wide black border (which will downsize to 1040x640) and then downsize that to 368x272.

I don't see those dlls in Windows/System32 or in the Program Files\Avisynth folder. Do you know where I can get them? (and again, for 64 bit).

[poisondeathray]

avisynth is primarily 32-bit. There is 64-bit avisynth, but 99% of the plugins are 32-bit and won't work. 64-bit avisynth is currently very buggy and prone to crashes.

both yadifmod and nnedi2 can be found here:
http://web.missouri.edu/~kes25c/

the script above applies only to doing it before premiere (making your assets progressive and resized). I'm not sure how to salvage what have now. You could try to export and deinterlace in xvid4psp, then crop & resize, but i have a feeling something is wrong the way you made your project

[poisondeathray]

If you need more incentive/convincing that the way I suggested is "more correct" way of doing it:

Since we are talking about bugs and quirks, there is a serious problem of native AVCHD import in both FCP and PPCS4 (and AE) as they both have an interlaced chroma bug. All h.264 formats and record modes, even 60i, 24p, 24p in 60i , 30p in 60i , have a bug. It affects all camera models that shoot h.264; it doesn't even have to been AVCHD; all h.264 formats, even blu-ray, regardless of container. Vegas is partly affected too, but not by 24pN footage.

The workaround is to use a different decoder. Either decoding to a digital intermediate like cineform, uncompressed, dnxhd etc...

These were enlarged, nearest neighbor 2x

HF10 which shoots 30p in 60i


HMC150 60i


HMC150 24pN