Looking For High Res Animation Advice

[David Bethel]

the xvid version played back @ 50 seconds on the laptop as well. What is amazing is that the avi is only 12 MB - From 3.4GB of images

Wow! And on my machines the quality looks pretty good! I thought that I had tried xvid. Maybe I messed something up. -David

[poisondeathray]

If it meets your needs, that's all that matters

But there is room for improvement; for example, you can see compression artifacting on the floor tiles, and this "undulates" distracting from the otherwise clean render

I would adust the quantizer lower (by default it's 4), this will increase the bitrate, and less quality lost. You might even try using a better matrix but try quantizer=2 for now (file size will get larger)

you might even try all I-frame xvid, with q=2, and a custom matrix


You might want to try 4:2:2 MPEG2 and compare as well

But otherwise it looks great. Nice job on the render

[David Bethel]

I would adust the quantizer lower (by default it's 4), this will increase the bitrate, and less quality lost.

I tried it a 1 and the file size was only 77MB Still very good

You might want to try 4:2:2 MPEG2 and compare as well

Is that a xvid option? -David

[poisondeathray]

Did you compare the floor tiles between the encodes

As long as you can get realtime playback, don't be afraid to increase the bitrate. Using a custom matrix will allow you to get even higher bitrates, and using all I-frame will increase the quality as well.

MPEG 4:2:2 is a different codec, it has better color sampling (4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0) , but worse compression than xvid. It's what I used in the example I posted earlier. It has low decoding overhead as well

I've got to run now, but I can post instructions how to use HCEnc and avisynth a bit later, or maybe someone else like jagabo can

[David Bethel]

Did you compare the floor tiles between the encodes

Yes, a noticeable improvement.

But otherwise it looks great. Nice job on the render

Thanks. I do this type of render work everyday. The animation is a pantry kitchen for a local food bank. It helps management and staff visualize what their new kitchen will look like. They are not usually adept at reading blue prints.

Thanks for your time!

avisynth still looks interesting. Just need the time to invest. -David

[jagabo]

Another thing to watch out for with Xvid (all MPEG family encoders, really) encoding is DCT ringing artifacts. Here's a nearest neighbor, 8x, zoom into a small section of your Xvid AVI file. Notice all the dancing dots around high contrast edges:



This can be seen in the JPG files you uploaded earlier too (JPEG uses DCT too). You can alleviate this to some extent by using custom matrices.

[David Bethel]

It's almost as if they have a halo or aurora around them. Finding the right balance of sharp detail and smooth movement and file size is quite the challenge. And then to match it all to machine that has same capabilities is even more fun!

http://www.gisdevelopment.net/technology/ic/techic001a.htm

Way over my head! -David

[poisondeathray]

You could use h.264 compression which has much better peak signal to noise ratio (PSNR) , less DCT ringing than xvid, but it's harder to decode (CPU heavy), even with all I-frame

If you wanted to try MPEG2 4:2:2 , here's how. Your render is less likely to benefit from this than others where there are vibrant colors intermixed with sharp edges superimposed. Or like those with red logos on black backgrounds

1) install avisynth , download HCEnc (i think you need at least the 0.24 beta to get the 4:2:2 option ,not sure if earlier versions have it)

2) use one of your lossless AVI encodes for the source (e.g. the huffyuv encode) , in the same directory, open a text file, type the following, save it, then rename the extension from .txt to .avs (change filenames to match)

AVISource("huffyuv.avi")
ConvertToYUY2()

3) open that .avs file in HCEnc. Change the settings, you can play around with the bitrates. To start try something like 30Mbps average, 50Mbps max. Change profile to best, dc precision to 10, enter a filename output , in the settings 3 tab change chroma output to 4:2:2 and encode. There are lots of other settings to play with but those are the basics

The only other distracting thing is still the aliasing and buzzing jaggies; but if you can't fix them in your program, there's not much you can do in post short of blurring

[David Bethel]

Not too hard:

• made the avi using huffyuv
• Latest HCEnc is 2.3
• I used HCgui_2.3.exe

avisynth told me I had to change

ConvertToYUY2()

to
ConvertToYV12()

the avi file was 1GB, the m2v file is 25MB
Double checked huffyuv decoder was installed on the test machine.

Getting this error. It looks like it found a codec but didn't install it.

[poisondeathray]

YV12 is 4:2:0 , YUY2 implies 4:2:2

Use 0.24beta , the 0.23 doesn't have that functionality

https://www.videohelp.com/download/HC024_beta_16-02-2010.zip

[David Bethel]

Okay!

Got 2.4 running

Are you saying to change the bitrates here to 30,000 and 50,000? Thanks! -David

[poisondeathray]

yes, you need somehting way higher like 30,000 and 50,000. MPEG2 compression is poor compared to h.264. h.264 would look better, higher psnr at 1/2 the filesize or bitrate, but because of that compression, it's more taxing on the cpu for Decoding => harder to playback in realtime especially on a single core laptop

[jagabo]

If you're going to use arbitraty bitrates you can just use HcEnc in constant quality mode instead. On the Settings 1 tab enable Constant Quantization and pick a Quant Value.

[poisondeathray]

If you're going to use arbitraty bitrates you can just use HcEnc in constant quality mode instead. On the Settings 1 tab enable Constant Quantization and pick a Quant Value.

That's a good idea.

LOL I actually never even knew HCenc had that ... The only thing I use it for are usually DVD's which have fixed bitrate requirements

[creamyhorror]

Honestly, I wonder if David really needs the additional quality improvements of 4:2:2. I just think the result might not look very different (but I'll be happy to be proven wrong).

XviD seems like a good bet for playback compatibility and decode speed. Might as well just stick with it.

[poisondeathray]

Honestly, I wonder if David really needs the additional quality improvements of 4:2:2. I just think the result might not look very different (but I'll be happy to be proven wrong).

I'm doubting it too. As I said earlier it does make a big difference on other types of animation, where colors are more dramatic.

[jagabo]

And a lot of MPEG 2 decoders can't handle 4:2:2. So using it is asking for trouble.

[David Bethel]

I not real good luck with m2v. With the initial lower settings, I did get windows media 11 playing the whole thing.

used to higher settings ( and switched to 4: 3 ) and now I get a blank screen that resets every 7 seconds

[poisondeathray]

Try smplayer, or install ffdshow and enable MPEG2 in the video configuration

I don't think it will help much in your case anyway, so if you're happy with the high bitrate xvid version , there is no reason to test this

[David Bethel]

smplayer is playing it ok. The first couple of plays, it is bit jerky, after that it smooths out.

I haven't found a repeat or continuous option play on it yet.

I can't use file -> open on windows media 11. It doesn't recognize m2vs

XVid's codecs did not automatically download on any of the machines that I've tried it on ( I have 6 ). I've had to manually install them. That would be a big draw back on getting the presentations into the end users hands unless they have a competent IT guy. -David

[poisondeathray]

windows doesn't come natively with any codecs. (except mpeg1 i think, and win7 is able to play some out of the box)

you could suggest a universal player like VLC, which is crossplatform (mac and linux too), for your xvid videos. It includes internal codecs. There are portable usb versions as well, so no need for installing or system admin rights.

smplayer has a repeat function (play=>repeat), includes internal codecs, and also has a usb version

[David Bethel]

There are portable usb versions as well, so no need for installing or system admin rights.

That sounds interesting. My intentions are to give the end user a flash drive, hopefully self reliant or at least very compatible to most XP boxes. I have 1 vista box and would like to trash it.

[David Bethel]

smplayer has a repeat function (play=>repeat), includes internal codecs, and also has a usb version

It's very well hidden <g> -David

[txporter]

Also, consider muxing the m2v file into a mpg container (with or without audio). Whenever I play m2v files with MPC-HC, it displays an incorrect length. This is fixed with a mpg container. I use mplex to mux.

[jagabo]

XVid's codecs did not automatically download on any of the machines that I've tried it on ( I have 6 ). I've had to manually install them. That would be a big draw back on getting the presentations into the end users hands unless they have a competent IT guy. -David

WMP will only automatically download WMV and WMA codecs.

[David Bethel]

WMP will only automatically download WMV and WMA codecs.

See why I posted this in the newbie section of the forum -David

[jagabo]

HcEnc can limit the peak bitrate in Quantizer mode to prevent bitrate peaks that are too high for some players. The control is on the Setting 1 tab near the Quant Value, "Check VBV/Max Bitrate". If you enable that the Max Bitrate setting on the Main tab will be in effect. During any section where the bitrate would exceed that limit a higher quantizer (lower quality) will be used to prevent exceeding the peak.

Another tool you'll find useful: BitrateViewer

[David Bethel]

The control is on the Setting 1 tab near the Quant Value, "Check VBV/Max Bitrate". If you enable that the Max Bitrate setting on the Main tab will be in effect.

I had 1 right!

I got the smplayer usb working with the m2v a flash drive and it's working pretty well. It looks like smplayer's ini file retains most of the options that I like, so as long as I copy it, repeat, fullscreen etc will be used in the initial startup. I need to learn more about it's options ( how to turn off subtitle : enabled screen warning )

I've never checked on a flash drives speeds versus a hard drive speed. I know the write mode is way slower, maybe the read speed is closer to HD speed.

I'll want to write a link / pif /bat file for a 1 click start of the presentation. Once running most people will know how to exit smplayer.

HCenc look to be very powerful. It must take a bunch to learn what all of the options are for.

I must admit, I've downloaded and installed more software this week than I've done in years. -David

[David Bethel]

The process and advice so far:

General: If there is a 'Best' or 'Highest' qualtity option, use it

Render the frames at a higher resolution than the final video resolution.
- Highest antialiazing possible
- Configure for 60 frame/sec playback
- For walking speed animations, advance the camera 0.25" per frame

Save the rendered images in a lossless format - TGA TIFF
- 24 bit color depth output

Encode the images into a lossless video format in avi holder
*** VirtualDub
- Resize to final resolution
: filter with Precise Bilinear
: use multiples of 4 for final size
- Choose a YUV encoder

*** Huffyuv
- 4:2:2 color output
- 4GB max file size for FAT32 systems

Convert the lossless avi to a faster playback format
*** Avisynth
Make ASCII file:
AVISource("myfile.avi")
ConvertToYUY2()

*** HCEnc 2.4 - m2v output
- Select the .avs file you just made
- Bitrate 50,000 KBs max
- Settings 1 tab enable Constant Quantization and pick a Quant Value.
- Profile to best
- dc precision to 10
- Settings 3 tab change chroma output to 4:2:2

Portable Playback
- USB portable - intallable on flash drive
- Player should have internal codecs for m2v format

Workstation playback
- Fast Hard Drives
- Dual Core Processors
- Fast Video Card - Min ???MB Ram
- Pre Installed codecs

I know I've missed some steps, but its getting there. -David

[creamyhorror]

Hmm, why not use XviD? Using MPEG2 4:2:2 is unlikely to result in any visible difference, and MPEG2 is less efficient than XviD (hence the need for very high bitrates). Unless HcEnc is even better than I give it credit for...

SMplayer will almost certainly play XviD out of the box.

I also think you can feed in the images directly into Avisynth, but that's just another option.