A few questions about capturing Hi8 tapes with TRV330E

[pericaa]

Hi,

I have some old analog Hi8 tapes with family videos that needs to be captured and saved for the future. Since those were taped with an old Sony analog camcorder i wasn't able to convert them to digital output, but i recently borrowed Sony DVR-TRV330E camcorder that is capable of doing so. Now i'm planning to finally take some time and convert all those tapes to digital format.

The plan is to convert and save them to two HDD's (one internal, and one external) so that i can have two copies in case of the failure of one of them. The materials would be stored in raw untouched format because the quality should be maximum, and any kind of extra encoding would probably decrease the quality level. This way i can get and secure the source, and from there it's not a problem to create DVD's or whatever for later usage... The important thing is to have them in digital format.

Now, the size of captured material is, of course, huge (1min=approximately 225MB), and since i have effectively 15HRS of materials this would give me around 200GB of videos... My HDD's should handle it (let be honest, nowdays storage space is relatively cheap), but is there any way to squeeze the videos without the loss of quality (losless codec?). Like i said, i want to get the maximum out of it, and save it in that state, because i don't plan to capture it again...

I'll use Sony Vegas Pro 9.0 for capturing. Maybe i'm wrong, but if the videos were taped with Sony Handycam, captured with Sony camcorder using Sony software should give the best result, LOL... I don't know if this makes any sense, but does the choice of software (maybe Premiere, Pinnacle,...?) for capturing really makes the difference in quality, since the converting is made by the Sony cam itself?

Is there any way to cut some of the junk scenes to save space without encoding the video?

And btw, are there any options or settings in both Sony Vegas and camcorder that can affect quality of the material, and that i should pay attention to?


Any advice is welcomed. Thanks in advance.

[edDV]

I am also converting a large Hi8 library to DV format for archive. The reduced cost of hard drives finally makes this practical.

Playback from a Digital8 camcorder is a simple method. Only certain Digital8 models have this capability. If your Hi8 tapes contain PCM digital audio tracks, the choice is limited further. This mainly affects tapes shot with higher end pro Hi8 camcorders that recorded both AFM and PCM stereo pairs. Other than audio, the main limitation of Hi8 playback in a Digital8 camcorder is lack of search or scan. These cameras only do 1x playback for straight dubs. You will probably be able to do a light edit to eliminate gaps and unusable video. DV format is great for this since it can be losslessly cut in Vegas (DV in, DV project, DV export).

Now, the size of captured material is, of course, huge (1min=approximately 225MB), and since i have effectively 15HRS of materials this would give me around 200GB of videos... My HDD's should handle it (let be honest, nowdays storage space is relatively cheap), but is there any way to squeeze the videos without the loss of quality (losless codec?). Like i said, i want to get the maximum out of it, and save it in that state, because i don't plan to capture it again...

No, DV is ~13GB/hr and cuts losslessly. DV also recodes with minimal loss. Any "lossless" 4:2:2 codec would result is 30-40GB/hr files.

The only way to reduce file size is to introduce MPeg interframe compression which reduces quality, makes the files less editable and suffers much more recode loss. At best this would reduce file sizes to about 4GB/hr. but at considerable quality cost. Hard drives are cheap. There is no need to go to MPeg anymore except for distribution.

I'll use Sony Vegas Pro 9.0 for capturing. Maybe i'm wrong, but if the videos were taped with Sony Handycam, captured with Sony camcorder using Sony software should give the best result, LOL... I don't know if this makes any sense, but does the choice of software (maybe Premiere, Pinnacle,...?) for capturing really makes the difference in quality, since the converting is made by the Sony cam itself?

I like to use WinDV for DV capture. The reason is it is simple and fool proof.

Vegas capture has complex preference settings that must be changed for DV vs HDV potentially causing errors with little benefit. Vegas capture has additional features like batch modes but these are of little value unless the tape has been logged. This is difficult with a camcorder that only plays 1x. Better to record it all and sort out the bad stuff after DV capture.

There is no difference in "quality" using WinDV vs. Vegas capture. The result is a DV-AVI file.

Is there any way to cut some of the junk scenes to save space without encoding the video?

And btw, are there any options or settings in both Sony Vegas and camcorder that can affect quality of the material, and that i should pay attention to?

As said above, DV format can be losslessly cut in Vegas (DV in, DV project, DV export) so you can trim out the junk saving considerable file size. You can also separate material into meaningful clips that can be labeled for future access. I make searchable Excel spreadsheets for my Hi8 to DV clip library.

As for settings, just keep to pure DV cutting for the archive pass. I don't use filters on the archive. Later you can filter copies of the archive and still have the archive as backup.

Use a cleaning tape on the camcorder before use and after every 10 hours of dub or when playback gets noisy. I can't think of any camcorder settings that affect a Hi8 tape playback. Tracking is automatic.

[edDV]

BTW for completeness, I mostly dub my Hi8 to DV using a Sony V-5000 Hi8 camcorder to a Canopus ADVC-100 DV converter. This is because most of my Hi8 tapes have both AFM and separate PCM digital stereo audio tracks* (4 tracks total not counting linear tracks). The V-5000 allows picture in search plus has an internal TBC.

I also have a Sony GV-D200 Digital8 player and a Digital8 camcorder that play Hi8 tapes 1x to DV IEEE-1394.


* most consumer Hi8 camcorders only have a single set of stereo AFM tracks with the same audio backed to lower quality linear tracks.

[turk690]

Unlike VHS, 8mm/Hi-8 systems do not have ANY linear tracks at all. Non-PCM audio is AFM multiplexed in with the video, recorded and played back by the same pair of heads. Control/sync (for auto-tracking) is multiplexed in the same tracks with the same heads as well.
Pericaa's concern about which equipment to use has some validity in that it starts with Hi8, which is analogue, then will be converted on the fly to a DV stream. It can be asked: will the resulting DV file produced by playing back the tape on, say, a DCR-TRV460, whose internal converter digitizes it and outputs the DV stream via FireWire be worse or better than one produced by taking same camcorder's analogue outputs and passing it through a Canopus ADVC-300 or a wretched ADSTech Pyro Pro? By how much will it be worse or better? If the resulting DV AVI file has the same quality any way it is captured and digitized from the original Hi8 source, then what does it mean?

[edDV]

DV is fairly mature technology. The goal of the Canopus DV hardware codec was to match Sony's. I'm not sure whose hardware codec ADS uses. The various solutions do vary for analog performance. I see some signal to noise advantage using the semi-pro Sony Hi8 camcorder that shot the tapes + ADVC-100 vs. the GV-D200 player but not by much.

[pericaa]

If your Hi8 tapes contain PCM digital audio tracks, the choice is limited further. This mainly affects tapes shot with higher end pro Hi8 camcorders that recorded both AFM and PCM stereo pairs.

I am sure that those Hi8 tapes contain only analog data, since the cam which they were made with is only analog.

You will probably be able to do a light edit to eliminate gaps and unusable video. DV format is great for this since it can be losslessly cut in Vegas (DV in, DV project, DV export).

So i can basically perform light editing (cut the unnecessary scenes) of captured videos directly with Vegas, and without any kind of encoding?

The only way to reduce file size is to introduce MPeg interframe compression which reduces quality, makes the files less editable and suffers much more recode loss. At best this would reduce file sizes to about 4GB/hr. but at considerable quality cost. Hard drives are cheap. There is no need to go to MPeg anymore except for distribution.

I agree with that. These kind of videos are too important to destroy it because of the few $ and GB's less. I planning to buy WD Elements 1TB or Samsung Story 1TB in the next few days, and i think that this should be sufficient size for backup purpose only.

[guns1inger]

Vegas uses the Sony DV codec, which is very good. You could also apply transitions, which would only re-encode the frames affected, or effects, which will effect whole clips or timelines, and if this was the final output and first re-encode, you would not notice the difference.

[edDV]

If your Hi8 tapes contain PCM digital audio tracks, the choice is limited further. This mainly affects tapes shot with higher end pro Hi8 camcorders that recorded both AFM and PCM stereo pairs.

I am sure that those Hi8 tapes contain only analog data, since the cam which they were made with is only analog.

You will probably be able to do a light edit to eliminate gaps and unusable video. DV format is great for this since it can be losslessly cut in Vegas (DV in, DV project, DV export).

So i can basically perform light editing (cut the unnecessary scenes) of captured videos directly with Vegas, and without any kind of encoding?

Unless your Hi8 camcorder sold for more than $2000, it is unlikely you have PCM digital audio.

DV format records to complete frames (interlaced) with about 5x DCT intraframe compression. Since each frame is intact, you can cut edit with no loss. Further, the light compression used by DV allows several recodes with minimal loss.

That said, I only cut my archive DV files to exclude useless clips. I also take care to leave extra frames before and after the clips of interest (called heads and tails) so there is room to apply future transitions. The resulting archive file is still first generation, identical to the original camera tape.

I only apply filters or transitions to copies of the archive file. That way there is always a backup to first generation..

[sphinx99]

I captured a few terabytes of Hi8 a few years ago. At the time the storage was pricey but it's since dropped to almost nothing. I've left everything in DV, except for cuts which I did in Virtualdub at keyframes (aka every frame). It worked nicely.

[edDV]

Virtualdub will recode (loose a generation).

[vhelp]

I have been analog capturing the vancouver 2010 olympic games from my directv dvr (model r16) to a 1TB usb external hdd. But..

A word of caution, if possible to discern: if you get an external hdd, get one that does not include a built in "sleep" mode because if you do, you will have the same headacke I've been having--the drive falls a sleep after +/- 4 minutes and its like a hard crash, and it will take aprox 30 seconds to waik back up. In the mean time you loose valuable capture footage.

(now this may not apply to you, but just in case, i'll mention my solution below)

But here's what i've been doing, I keep a second instance of virtualdub open with an avi file loaded, and whenever the games go to commercials, (and I stop the capture) if the commercials go more then 3 minutes, I begin moving through timeline.

I have another 1TB external hdd, the brand is SimpleDrive. And it stays on all the time. I never have a problem capturing to it, ever. But that oen is full, and all the stores I shopped around did not have any left, so I sent when a Toshiba, the trobuled one. Warning: Don't get it!

That about it, now waiting anxiously for the 3pm, now USA vs. Canada !!

-vhelp 5329

[2Bdecided]

Virtualdub will recode (loose a generation).

Haven't you noticed the "Direct Stream Copy" option? Perfect for very fast (and lossless!) cut/paste type editing (as well as a few other things).

Cheers,
David.

[edDV]

Thanks for the correction. I hadn't attempted "Direct Stream Copy" with DV format. Makes it more useful.