How go i get the same vhs quality when capturing and converting to dvd?

[Whuntmore]

Here's what I have, and here's what I'm trying to do:

I have: iMac 2.4 gig dual core (running Leopard) with 4 gig Ram. I have a Canopus AVDC300. I have a 1.5 Terabyte Seagate ex. drive. I also have Final Cut Express 4.0. (I'm learning how to use it. I am a noob in this area of video settings and how-to) I have been using iMovie HD up to now.

I also have no money left...


I have old VCR tapes (VHS-NTSC) Some have been recorded in ex play, but most in sp. They are all home movies recorded on a standard, consumer VCR, or on 8mm. I cannot replace them. I want to record them onto my computer, edit them so I have some chapters, and then record them to DVD.

My problem is: The quality is poor. when I view the VCR tapes on a consumer VCR player, they look pretty good on the TV. But when I record onto the computer, edit, then burn to DVD, they look poor.

I know I'm not going over in time (on the DVD) because I've burned a 20-25 minute movie onto a 4.7 DVD-R as test runs, with very little chapters, or extras.

Now, I don't care how big the files are (1.5 TB space), I don't care how long the process takes (hours, days). If the VCR tapes are full of noise, I don't expect to fix them. I'm just expecting to capture the good footage and get the same results or almost the same results that the VCR shows on playback on my tv.

I believe that I have some setting wrong, or I'm selecting the wrong codec. I'm not sure which codec is either the best for this job - OR runs with No compression. This I have no idea.

I really can't afford any more equipment UNLESS one last piece will do the trick (like a S-VHS) and solve all my problems.

I just want my DVD's to look as good as the VCR tapes.

Can anyone help me with what I might be doing wrong, to get my old VCR tapes burnt to DVD and look as good?

Thank you for any help.

[classfour]

Look left to the "Forum", find the "Restoration Forums" and you will find your answers - much good information over there.

Also, read the guides.

[jagabo]

My problem is: The quality is poor. when I view the VCR tapes on a consumer VCR player, they look pretty good on the TV. But when I record onto the computer, edit, then burn to DVD, they look poor.

I know I'm not going over in time (on the DVD) because I've burned a 20-25 minute movie onto a 4.7 DVD-R as test runs, with very little chapters, or extras.

That much video on a single layer DVD would fill about 1/3 of the disc at the highest quality level allowed on a DVD (~8000 to 9800 kbps, depending on the bitrate of the audio). If you used a lower quality (lower bitrate) setting while encoding you will get lesser quality. You can't use a higher bitrate because the DVD spec won't allow it.

Another thing to look out for: do not deinterlace your video. Don't worry if you see comb artifacts on the computer while editing. The DVD player or TV will display the video without comb artifacts.

[Whuntmore]

My problem is: The quality is poor. when I view the VCR tapes on a consumer VCR player, they look pretty good on the TV. But when I record onto the computer, edit, then burn to DVD, they look poor.

I know I'm not going over in time (on the DVD) because I've burned a 20-25 minute movie onto a 4.7 DVD-R as test runs, with very little chapters, or extras.

That much video on a single layer DVD would fill about 1/3 of the disc at the highest quality level allowed on a DVD (~8000 to 9800 kbps, depending on the bitrate of the audio). If you used a lower quality (lower bitrate) setting while encoding you will get lesser quality. You can't use a higher bitrate because the DVD spec won't allow it.

Another thing to look out for: do not deinterlace your video. Don't worry if you see comb artifacts on the computer while editing. The DVD player or TV will display the video without comb artifacts.

Ok, I don't understand your first comment. So you're saying that I should have the highest quality with this amount of time? That's kinda why I did it. I'm trying to cut down my test time to see different results, but I'm going thru quite a bit of disks here...

I thought that single layer DVD-R will hold about two hours worth. Also, I'm not sure what is considered a lower bitrate codec, and what is higher... I'm telling it to record in best quality, and/or I try to crank up the settings for quality up all the way. What would be considered a really good codec to use? DV? Quicktime Pro? H.264? expert settings?

I think this is what I'm missing here. This is what I have no idea about.

[Whuntmore]

Look left to the "Forum", find the "Restoration Forums" and you will find your answers - much good information over there.

Also, read the guides.

I have looked at some of the forums, but the problem I seeing is everybody is either using some other os (windows), some other hardware, or doing a different conversion (such as DVD to some movie file, or movie file to DVD)

here's the articles I see:

Convert articles
Newbie All-In-One DVD Convert guides
How to convert to Blu-ray video/AVCHD
How to convert to DVD MPEG2
How to convert to VCD MPEG1
How to convert to SVCD MPEG2
How to convert to AVI/DivX/XviD/WMV/MKV/OGM/MP4/H264
How to convert to Playstation 3/Xbox360/Media centers
How to convert to Handheld devices/Mobile/PSP/PPC/3GP/MP4/iPod
How to convert PAL to NTSC or NTSC to PAL / Framerate conversions
Other conversions, (S)VCD to MPG
How to convert to WAV,MP3,AC3


None of these forums apply to what I'm doing. I'm converting VHS to DVD via a computer. But from what I can see, most of these are doing something completely different. I'm not converting DVD's to movie files or even a VCD to MPEG. I've even done a search, and I'm not finding anything that really applies directly to converting Standard VHS to DVD using Mac software to a DVD. maybe everybody here is interested in doing something different to what I'm looking to do.

I can't find it. That's why I asked.

[jagabo]

The basic factor that determines video quality (for a given video and given codec) is the bitrate used. The higher the bitrate the higher the quality. How many hours of video you can put on a DVD with MPEG 2 encoding (the only allowable codec for DVD) depends on the bitrate you use. At the highest bitrate (and hence highest quality) of 9800 kbps you can only fit one hour on a 4.7 GB DVD. To get two hours you have to use half that bitrate. Home camcorder quality video will not look good at that bitrate. Stick with 8000 to 9800 kbps and the video should look fine with the capture device and software you are using -- about the same as viewing the tapes directly.

Getting an S-VHS deck with a line time base corrector and noise filtering, a full frame time base corrector, and an analog video processing amp will cost you about $1000 buying used equipment. They will significantly improve your captures. But not many people want to go that far.

I forgot to mention that the actual resolution of NTSC VHS tape is about 352x480. Your ADVC 300 will only capture at 720x480 but you can encode as MPEG 2 at 352x480 (it will still display with the proper aspect ratio) and squeeze a little more quality out of your bitrate.

Other things you can do is apply some noise reduction after capturing. Noise is the enemy of compression (most codecs get high compression by flagging only the changes between frames -- when there is lots of noise every pixel changes with every frame so you can't get high compression rates). So removing noise can get you better compression. But you have to be careful. Too much noise reduction will make people look like manikins and will lead to ghosting artifacts.

[Whuntmore]

The basic factor that determines video quality (for a given video and given codec) is the bitrate used. The higher the bitrate the higher the quality. How many hours of video you can put on a DVD with MPEG 2 encoding (the only allowable codec for DVD) depends on the bitrate you use. At the highest bitrate (and hence highest quality) of 9800 kbps you can only fit one hour on a 4.7 GB DVD. To get two hours you have to use half that bitrate. Home camcorder quality video will not look good at that bitrate. Stick with 8000 to 9800 kbps and the video should look fine with the capture device and software you are using -- about the same as viewing the tapes directly.

Getting an S-VHS deck with a line time base corrector and noise filtering, a full frame time base corrector, and an analog video processing amp will cost you about $1000 buying used equipment. They will significantly improve your captures. But not many people want to go that far.

One hour per DVD is fine by me. 8000-9800 bitrate is what I'll have to find to change. I have a Canopus ADVC-300 converter, and I was told this converter was pretty good. It comes with software that is supposed to clean up the quality - and once I get it recorded, it does seem like it actually is cleaned up a bit.

[BogieV]

I thought that single layer DVD-R will hold about two hours worth. Also, I'm not sure what is considered a lower bitrate codec, and what is higher... I'm telling it to record in best quality, and/or I try to crank up the settings for quality up all the way. What would be considered a really good codec to use? DV? Quicktime Pro? H.264? expert settings?

I think this is what I'm missing here. This is what I have no idea about.

Just few points to start you up, but you have to do the rest (meaning research and read, etc.)

2 hours on DVD equals SP quality on DVD recorder or average 6000kbps which is not that high of a bit rate.
I would aim for 1 to 1.5 hours for DVD with variable bit rate max 9000 min 2000 (often software min bitrate is much lower which I don't like).
Go and find tips about the usage of your capture device (I believe there are pro forums like dvinfo.net, etc.)
Go and find out how to use your editing software - if you edit a lot you'll be better of capturing in DV.avi then encode the final edit in MPEG2 for DVD.
If you are not going to edit the source video - go straight to MPEG2.
And again - may be the tutorials here are not exactly for your hardware and software but they give enough information so you can judge how to establish your work-flow.

[jagabo]

One hour per DVD is fine by me. 8000-9800 bitrate is what I'll have to find to change.

I don't use Final Cut but it probably has a template for 1 hour per DVD. Or maybe you just have to set the bitrate manually somehow. I wouldn't try an on-the-fly conversion to MPEG 2 (ie receive DV from the ADVC 300 and compress with MPEG 2 in realtime while capturing). MPEG 2 encoders usually need time to do their best. Forcing one to work in realtime will cause it to take shortcuts, reducing quality.

I have a Canopus ADVC-300

Yes, that should be fine for what you are doing.

Note I added a little to my previous post.

[Whuntmore]

@jagabo

thanks for the tips. I'll continue to research this. I'll look for manual bitrate and make the change. At least I have an idea now of what I'm looking for. I'll research the equipment/software more.

It seems that several reviews of the forums, that most here are interested in different conversions. It makes it hard for me, because the research becomes very hit-and-miss. To me, different conversions require different answers - Even when I find a tidbit, I can't get it to work or apply.

That's kinda why I posted this, very specific question. I have been researching this since I first joined on several sites (as well as this one back in Jan 2008) and I can't find anything that either works or applies to what I'm doing.

Maybe I'm over saturated (info overload) here. I've been on and off trying to get these home movies converted, and every time I try something different, it ends up looking the same.

[Whuntmore]

Getting an S-VHS deck with a line time base corrector and noise filtering, a full frame time base corrector, and an analog video processing amp will cost you about $1000 buying used equipment. They will significantly improve your captures. But not many people want to go that far.

I would consider buying one, if it meant getting the quality I want or better. Any current models to suggest?

I forgot to mention that the actual resolution of NTSC VHS tape is about 352x480.

That does suck. I've tried to make changes to the settings, and you're right - I can't. Even bypassing the software, I can't get/find the setting in FCX to 352x480. Are you positive that's the setting? (I thought it was 320x240?) Standard (VCR) VHS-NTSC in Canada and the USA is 352x480.

That would explain alot... No wonder I'm having soo much problems. I've been told that it was 320x240.

Your ADVC 300 will only capture at 720x480 but you can encode as MPEG 2 at 352x480 (it will still display with the proper aspect ratio) and squeeze a little more quality out of your bitrate.

ok, I really appreciate this info.

[jagabo]

720x480 is also called full D1. 352x480 is called half D1. 352x240 is called quarter D1. Maybe FC uses that nomenclature? Avoid 352x240 -- you will lose half the vertical and temporal resolution.

[Whuntmore]

720x480 is also called full D1. 352x480 is called half D1. 352x240 is called quarter D1. Maybe FC uses that nomenclature? Avoid 352x240 -- you will lose half the vertical and temporal resolution.

Ok, when I did all my research, one site stated to run in 640x480, then deinterlace it. that way you were supposed to be getting both fields. But I can't find any settings, vitural dub don't have a version for Mac, and I can't keep switching back and forth from Mac to Win since the 1.5 TB is formatted for Mac.

Problem is: I can do the research, but I'm still left with alot of trial and error.

I just thought I could run into someone who was doing the same thing, had figured out a really good way to do this, and could just say: Do this, and this and this, and it will look fine.

[jagabo]

640x480 isn't a legal resolution for DVD. NTSC DVD supports 720x480, 704x480, 352x480 and 352x240 only. Converting from 720x480 to 352x480 would be done in Final Cut. Maybe the Express version doesn't support that.

Deinterlacing is the removal of one field and replacing it with something else. You do not want to do that if you are making DVDs.

[poisondeathray]

You'd probably get more specific help in the Mac section , and maybe a mod will move this there (or you could change the title)

[johns0]

I have moved this thread to the mac forum where it belongs and next time you post a topic please use a more descriptive subject,for this time i changed it.

[Whuntmore]

I have moved this thread to the mac forum where it belongs and next time you post a topic please use a more descriptive subject,for this time i changed it.

Thank you for doing that.

[Whuntmore]

Well, after searching on ebay and other similar sites, I did get a JVC, S-VHS HR-S9911U. So far, so good. I will admit the picture quality coming out is much better, then my other VCR.

But with footage that was off tracking when they recorded it, it's kinda funny but I still have the tracking line thru the middle, but top and bottom is much clearer. (LOLOL) I couldn't believe it. I didn't expect that.

You folks weren't kidding... it does improve the image. Even really badly recorded tapes.

[guns1inger]

The ADVC300 unit converts the analogue signal to DV format. You should keep it as DV until you have done everything you are going to do with it, then encode it to mpeg-2 as the final step before authoring.

When it comes to restoration, there is no "repair video" application. Each tape requires it's own care and treatment. Some might require very little or only mild touch ups, some may require a lot of work to clean up. Some of this might be done in your NLE (e.g. FCP or similar) - light de-noising or colour correction, for example - but most will require dedicated specialty tools and the time required to learn how to use them. Unfortunately the best of these - virtualdub and avisynth - are Windows only. Virtualdub is probably the easiest to get your head around as it has a GUI interface. Avisynth is arguably much more powerful, certainly faster in most cases, but is script driven and has a much steeper learning curve.

It might also help if you posted a sample few seconds of footage so we can see just what condition your footage is in.

[lordsmurf]

A Mac is the wrong tool for video restoration.

[Whuntmore]

Avisynth is arguably much more powerful, certainly faster in most cases, but is script driven and has a much steeper learning curve.

It might also help if you posted a sample few seconds of footage so we can see just what condition your footage is in.

Here I thought it was 2010 - Not 1991. I thought I didn't have to do any more DOS, or command line run programs. Oh well...

I do have Virtual dub, and I've used it for doing game videos, but I've done very basic things with it. Never used Avisynth. what program do I use to create the DVD? Nero? What about creating chapters?


Lordsmurf:

Are you honestly saying that because you hate/never used Mac and you're a Windows fanboy, or you saying that because the 'video repair' programs on windows are better? Not trying to be mean here, but I can't tell.

[Whuntmore]

I have windows (XP 32 bit, Home Ed. SP2) running on my Mac (via bootcamp) and I've updated my version of virtual dub, and now my canopus 300 won't work on the windows side. the picture controller won't see it, and the two lights just stay on. the manual doesn't have any info, and the Grassroots forum says it's a bad unit. The thing works fine on the mac side, so it can't be a bad unit.

I figure I'm either missing some driver, or something.

Nevermind, I got it working now...

[lordsmurf]

Lordsmurf: Are you honestly saying that because you hate/never used Mac and you're a Windows fanboy, or you saying that because the 'video repair' programs on windows are better? Not trying to be mean here, but I can't tell.

I've been using Mac since the Apple IIe days of the 1980s, all the way through OS X 10.5. For some things, it works fine. Mac only has very basic video capabilities. It's good at camera-to-DVD (DV) workflows, some editing/effects (Boris, Final Cut, etc), and authoring (DVD Studio Pro). But it is severely limited in all other areas. It's not the right tool for restoring video. I'm platform agnostic. A tool is a tool. In this case, Windows platform with a mix of forensic and pro/hobby restoration software UNAVAILABLE ON ANY OTHER SYSTEM is what you have to use. That is the right tool. It has nothing to do with "better". Mac simply doesn't have the software you need. Nada. Zilch. Nothing.

But going back and re-reading the thread again, it doesn't sound like you're trying to restore video as much as you're trying to get a good capture -- AND being sure you don't mess up the file between capturing and burning the final DVD.

Conversation has gotten complex.

[Whuntmore]

Lordsmurf: Are you honestly saying that because you hate/never used Mac and you're a Windows fanboy, or you saying that because the 'video repair' programs on windows are better? Not trying to be mean here, but I can't tell.

I've been using Mac since the Apple IIe days of the 1980s, all the way through OS X 10.5. For some things, it works fine. Mac only has very basic video capabilities. It's good at camera-to-DVD (DV) workflows, some editing/effects (Boris, Final Cut, etc), and authoring (DVD Studio Pro). But it is severely limited in all other areas. It's not the right tool for restoring video. I'm platform agnostic. A tool is a tool. In this case, Windows platform with a mix of forensic and pro/hobby restoration software UNAVAILABLE ON ANY OTHER SYSTEM is what you have to use. That is the right tool. It has nothing to do with "better". Mac simply doesn't have the software you need. Nada. Zilch. Nothing.

But going back and re-reading the thread again, it doesn't sound like you're trying to restore video as much as you're trying to get a good capture -- AND being sure you don't mess up the file between capturing and burning the final DVD.

Conversation has gotten complex.

That's pretty much it, in a nutshell. Just a good capture, and get it to DVD.

That's good to hear you're not biased. Ok, so I've been messing with Virtual dub some more, and I've got to learn how to get the most outta it. (back in a month! lol)

Yeah, I'm trying to be very realistic in my expectations here, if the tape or recording is shot, then I don't expect miracles. but if the tape is clean, recorded in SP and it's a first gen recording, then ya, I expect to get very close to what the VCR is putting out. If I stick a tape in my VCR, and play it on the TV, and it looks pretty good, I don't see why I can't get the same results with a burned DVD. From all that I've read, I've gone thru a 30 pack of SL DVD's just running various tests.

I've Got a Mac (running both Leopard, and XP home SP2) it's got a 2.4 gig dual core, 4 gigs ram, and an external drive of 1.5 tb. I now own a JVC HR-s9911U, and a ADVC-300. I've got Final Cut Express 4.x, and the latest ver. of Virtual Dub on the Windows side. (Just got the 300 to work with VD.)

any more equipment in here, and it's gonna start looking like a studio. (Plus my wife chewed me out for buying MORE equipment (the JVC) and I'm still not getting great results from VCR tapes that still look pretty good).

Yes, I just want to do a good, clean capture (with no compression if I can help it) and then get it onto a disk. Restoring is another matter. If I get to a tape that I think I can save, then I'll cross that bridge when I have to. Hopefully by the time I get confident with just getting good results from good tapes, then I'll dive into restoring any bad ones.

Honestly, I didn't think it would be soooo much work, just to figure this out. I've been on this forum for almost 2 years just reading posts, I've been with several other forums, and I was with the FCPCUG here in my home city.

Ma brain hurts (Gumby voice)

I know each job has it's own tasks, but if it's just a straight capture, (use this equipment for Mac, and that for windows) don't compress (or use this for full quality) and then (do this, don't do that) then burn. It's not like I'm trying to get a 4:3 aspect to go 16:9, or trying to get really poor footage into HD quality, or even trying to rip off movies. This is all home videos (Nephew hockey games, my friend getting his first house, pets I've had, etc).

Personally, I get the feeling that my losses is coming from editing.

I used to use an old Avermedia Studio card in my old Socket A (MB) computer. It captured pretty good (actually) but don't edit that footage. As soon as you start to edit it, you just lost like 50% quality. Like going from a master copy, to 3rd gen EP recording. I was using Pinnacle 8 at the time, and I got up to Titainium 10. I gave up on Pinnacle by then. I was still getting quality loss as soon as I did editing. I don't use this anymore

Back On Topic: So then (with my modern equipment I first listed) the first tapes I actually did, I did straight recording, and no editing. when the scene ended, I stopped recording and that was one footage or chapter. Get enough for about One hour, and then burn it like that. Results not too bad, but I figured there must be better ways of doing this.

So, with info overload, and two years of reading forums and discussions, I gave up and started asking: Maybe I've got some setting wrong, or I'm using the wrong codec (Nothing I read tells me what I need to know) or it is being compressed when I'm trying to avoid compression, Or maybe something is being De-interlaced, I don't know that the software is doing it, or maybe I don't have the right resolution set.

Maybe it's the way that NTSC is. two interlaced fields to form one frame. and once you get it into a program that's run on a progressive system, it wants to change it (hence the editing issue) so converting it back to an interlaced system, it looks blocky and/or poor.

[jagabo]

I get the feeling that my losses is coming from editing. I have an old Avermedia Studio card in my old Socket A (MB) computer. It captures pretty good (actually) but don't edit that footage. As soon as you start to edit it, you just lost like 50% quality.

With an ADVC300 you should be capturing as DV AVI. With a decent editor you should be getting no loss of quality while cut/paste editing DV AVI. Even with filtering you should get negligible loss if you save as DV AVI or as high bitrate MPEG 2 for DVD.

[guns1inger]

Straight capture is not that difficult, and questions of interlacing etc really don't enter into it until you start doing the more complex stuff. Lordsmurf is a pro in this area, and is right when he says it is down to the hardware in the chain leading up the PC (Mac or Windows) that most influences the quality of the material you then have to work with. Capture interlaced, edit interlaced and encode interlaced, and interlacing has no impact at all (aside form how some players show it on a PC). If you really are finding it that complex and overwhelming then you do have other options, including DVD recorders or professional transfer services.

[Whuntmore]

I get the feeling that my losses is coming from editing. I have an old Avermedia Studio card in my old Socket A (MB) computer. It captures pretty good (actually) but don't edit that footage. As soon as you start to edit it, you just lost like 50% quality.

With an ADVC300 you should be capturing as DV AVI. With a decent editor you should be getting no loss of quality while cut/paste editing DV AVI. Even with filtering you should get negligible loss if you save as DV AVI or as high bitrate MPEG 2 for DVD.

So maybe with the equipment I have now (Stopped Using the Avermedia long ago) maybe I'll check to make sure it's capturing in the proper form - DV AVI.

[Whuntmore]

Straight capture is not that difficult, and questions of interlacing etc really don't enter into it until you start doing the more complex stuff. Lordsmurf is a pro in this area, and is right when he says it is down to the hardware in the chain leading up the PC (Mac or Windows) that most influences the quality of the material you then have to work with. Capture interlaced, edit interlaced and encode interlaced, and interlacing has no impact at all (aside form how some players show it on a PC). If you really are finding it that complex and overwhelming then you do have other options, including DVD recorders or professional transfer services.

Ok, so I'll go thru the settings and make sure interlaced is still going on.

I actually have a combo VCR, and DVD recorder, but the VCR side isn't a S-VHS. I was also hoping for a few chapters, and avoiding plugging in one VCR to the Combo unit, but oh well... If that's what I've got to do, then so be it.

I know I could bring in my tapes to a transfer service, and there's several here in the phone book, but with all the tapes I have (well over 30) and the money I've invested now, and the fact I'm broke, and I really can't afford even $20 a tape x 30 tapes (over $500)...

With what equipment I've bought, I should be able to put out a decent disk. Like I said, I'm not trying to take a really bad recording, and turn it into HD. I'm just trying to get the same results that I see on the tape, to a DVD.

I've been to lordSmurf's site, and I've been reading up as much as I can. (Very good info, I might add.) I'll just keep plugging away till I find out why this ain't working like it should.

[Whuntmore]

Here's the info from G-spot: (if the image comes up...) I took the settings from Lordsmurf's site with the S-VHS function settings.

[lordsmurf]

Your attachment didn't attach.

I know I could bring in my tapes to a transfer service, and there's several here in the phone book, but with all the tapes I have (well over 30) and the money I've invested now, and the fact I'm broke, and I really can't afford even $20 a tape x 30 tapes (over $500)...

You need to be careful with services anyway -- especially the ones in strip shopping centers. Many of them know less than you do (no offense intended, but you get the idea). Walmart, Walgreens, etc -- much worse.

With what equipment I've bought, I should be able to put out a decent disk.

I'd tend to agree here.