Source file: DVD .iso
Quality: Constant (60.78% RF:20)
Background: First attempt gave me interlacing issues which I was able to fix by selecting "Deinterlace: Fast" under video filters.
Question 1: For anime, should I pretty much assume that I'll always encounter interlacing issues and just leave the Deinterlace filter turned on?
Question 2: If I have a .iso of a dual-layered (DVD9) DVD that has not been shrunk, and a .iso of the same DVD that has been shrunk to DVD5, will I achieve the same results when encoding to a .mkv at the above listed quality level? Basically, should I expect the output file to be around the same size? If not, what should I do to ensure I get the same general quality and file sizes as I'll be dealing with both scenarios frequently.
Question 3: For anime, should I consider adding any more video filters aside from Deinterlace, and is "fast" a good setting typically?
Any other suggestions you have in regards to anime ripping/encoding are welcome!
TYVM for your help!
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Last edited by Ronin Silfar; 29th Jan 2010 at 03:32.
1 and 3. There is no single rule that can apply to every anime series and movie ever made. In general, though, just blindly deinterlacing something is the worst thing you can do to it.
2. The better results will come from starting with the original DVD9. The filesize might be somewhat smaller when starting with the DVD5, as compared to starting with the DVD9, with both encoded at the same quality level.
Any other suggestions you have in regards to anime ripping/encoding are welcome!
And it's Handbrake, not Handbreak.
Thanks for replying.
It's safe, at least, to assume that if ep. 1 of a series required deinterlacing then all episodes of that series will right?
I won't accept that even Ep 1 needs deinterlacing unless I or someone else that knows what they're doing can have a look. Can you provide a sample, please? This site accepts samples up to 30 MB now. Open a VOB in DGIndex, use the [ and ] buttons to isolate a small section (10 seconds or so), one showing movement, go File->Save Project and Demux Video, and upload the resulting M2V here or at some file sharing site such as SendSpace or MediaFire.
There's a big difference between a straight deinterlace and an IVTC or an unblend.
Last edited by manono; 29th Jan 2010 at 12:32.
I think it's pretty obvioius. You get the venetian blinds effect during scenes w/ large amounts of movement. Interlace is (to my knowledge) when every other line is drawn on the screen from top to bottom, then the television goes back and draws every other line again. This is from the old assumption that the human eye could not notice anything above 30hz so nothing more than 60hz interlaced was necessary. Now w/ progressive TVs that draw 60hz (or higher) top to bottom you get the effect now known as "interlacing." Am I correct?
I'm fairly new to the actual encoding process, but I pick up on concepts quickly, and am not new to video in general. I've uploaded a sample just in case. If I'm wrong and just made a total ass of myself I'd like to know obviously. The 13s mark is the most obvious instance. I just made a preview clip w/ HandBrake w/o the Deinterlace filter active since the opening scene of the episode happened to have a couple examples.
Last edited by Ronin Silfar; 30th Jan 2010 at 00:13.
I think historically interlacing was due to bandwidth considerations. You can read up on wikipedia or google, or some of the old timers can fill you in
Anyway, you uploaded an encoded sample, which provide very little information because the damage is already done by handbrake. You need to upload an unprocessed sample of the source. Manono gave you instructions above
There ya go.
The part where the title disappears and the sky fills most of the screen. I think it should be pretty easy to catch.
Last edited by Ronin Silfar; 30th Jan 2010 at 00:12.
Here's you're anime back, progressive now, 23.976 instead of your incorrect 29.97fps, and no deinterlacers were used, just a field matcher and a decimator (a regular IVTC), cropped, resized, and encoded as an XviD AVI:
I appreciate the help, but I'm confused now because the mkv I got after applying the Deinterlace filter in HandBrake is (visually) better than the avi you uploaded. I still notice lines during the scene in question where I don't on my version. As far as the framerate goes, I chose "same as source" in HandBreak. Should I instead select 23.976?
Looks like I have to eat my words, sort of. I didn't notice the stuff until you said there was still interlacing in the AVI and I went back and looked harder. So, I used the same script except I turned on the post-processor (which runs by default - I had turned it off last time). That means that any interlacing that gets past the field matching gets deinterlaced. There are a few frames that get deinterlaced.
Last edited by manono; 29th Jan 2010 at 13:31.
So I read up a bit on the difference between Deinterlace and Detelecine, and made a 25s preview w/ the Detelecine and Decomb filters applied at their default values, all other filters turned off, and fps at 23.976. Attached is the result. Aesthetically, I think it's better than the .avi you uploaded (although I suppose there is a degree of individual preference that must be taken into account w/ such things) and solves the immediate problem brought up in my OP. Ironically I still think the de-interlaced version looks very slightly better, but that's beside the point.
Is this an acceptable way of encoding this video?
I was posting this as you replied sorry. I looked at your vid and that looks much better. So what's the difference in what we did? Our vids look about the same.
Last edited by Ronin Silfar; 30th Jan 2010 at 00:12. Reason: forgot to attach the vid :)
There are a couple of points to be made. Although some anime has hybrid parts (a mix of 23.976fps and 29.97fps), for the most part it's meant to be 23.976fps. To achieve that from an interlaced 29.97fps DVD, you perform an IVTC InVerse TeleCine). Anime is often more difficult to handle than regular movies, but it's still supposed to be 23.976fps, for the most part. Deinterlacing is almost always the wrong thing to do, whether anime or live action, unless it was shot on video - interlaced 29.97fps cameras being used. Anime isn't shot on video. It's drawn (or nowadays created in a computer sometimes), and it's not created interlaced (although end credits are sometimes). If it's not meant to be interlaced then it shouldn't be deinterlaced. You restore it to its original progressive form with an IVTC. But some of it is all mixed up - a blend of different framerates and sources, and straightening it out can be a bitch sometimes. Hence the need for AnimeIVTC. If you get serious about anime, you'll learn AviSynth and not rely on Handbrake to do it for you, and you might also investigate this AnimeIVTC:
manono is right: the sections that have residual combing from deinterlacing are usually those sections that have a cadence break (anime sometimes has sections that aren't perfect 2-3 or hybrid sections). You could use vinverse() to get rid of that. You could even apply vinverse in segements if you wanted to. I was lazy and applied to everything in this example
Deinterlacing will always give you worse results than IVTCing on telecined material. Deinterlacing always causes quality loss.
@ Ronin: Your most recent sample still has residual combing artifacts right after the fade-from-white section
In this zip file, I have 2 screenshots, and the encoded file. I used different crop and sar settings but the point is just to illustrate the residual artifacts from handbrake, whatever settings you used.
You anime has blocking and some other noise issues - some people might want to clean it up a bit - but that's another topic and personal preference
Mpeg2Source("VTS_01_0.demuxed.d2v") TFM().TDecimate() Vinverse() Crop(4,0,-4,0) LanczosResize(704,480)
Ah, yes I've seen that post before. Thanks for digging it up for me again I'd forgotten exactly where it was. I figured I'd have to investigate that further at some point. I just downloaded the latest version (apparently very recently updated too ^_^) of that script. I supposed I'll track down an AviSynth guide or two and figure this out.
My problem is that I'm trying to put my DVD collection on the computer. Until now that has been accomplished by the use of DVD image (.iso in this case) files. However, the 1TB I've alotted for this purpose is rapidly disappearing . So I either allot more space from other HDs or do what is the better choice imo and rip out each individual episode into it's own .mkv (with audio/sub tracks) at a much smaller file size, but still very respectable video quality. I'm certain this is a very common project, and it's unfortunate that my preferred style of video entertainment has to be such a Bi*** to handle.
Am I understanding correctly then that this AnimeIVTC project is trying to automatically apply filters common to most anime to easily achieve desired results, or am I supposed to inspect each episode (hopefully I only need to inspect on a per-series basis) and tell it what I have then let it do it's job?
Wow lots of posts while I was typing this. give me a sec....
Ok, looked over the posts.
@ Poison: I looked at the screens. I think I see what you're talking about, but I barely notice a difference between the 2 (swapping back and forth between them quickly w/ windows image viewer shows a bit of a difference). Perhaps I just don't have the eye for it. As for the other blocking and noise issues... yea I noticed that. It's even more apparent at other areas of the episode I looked at later but haven't posted. I didn't bring it up because I didn't want this to turn into a "here's my anime, fix it for me please? K thx bye" post. I do, of course, want to resolve those issues as well.
It seems I've got my work cut out for me. I'm hoping, with sufficient knowledge, there is a way to accomplish what I mentioned above in a fairly short amount of time? I'm hoping to be able to just queue up a bunch of files and walk away. Ideally I shouldn't have to spend more than 30m per series tweaking settings to get it right. If I have to disect each episode though I don't know if the time investment is worth it.
Well if you can't notice the differences, then just carry on doing what you are doing; you're encoding this for yourself right? It only matters if you can tell the difference.
By far the easiest way is to just queue them up and do whatever settings you were using in the past.
It's only those picky anime fans use custom filters and fix every little detail. The thing with anime is often episodes are done differently - Even within the same episode! Of course it takes much longer to do to process it correctly, and only you can decide if it's worth your time investment
IMO, it's usually not worth it unless the anime (or whatever source) really needs touching up and is in bad shape. I just get extra HDD's which are much more affordable these days, and use the ISO. No time fiddling around, no time wasted encoding. Done.
Unfortunately, it seems my source in this case could use some work. I just ran the .iso (I hadn't really looked at it closely) and I can see several issues in this first episode. It's just generally blurry, there is blocking on the trees in one of the scenes I noticed... and for some reason there is no sound LOL. There is sound when I made the .mkv... all very weird.
*sigh* I'll keep fiddling w/ it. I'll try a couple other things in HandBreak, learn Avisynth if necessary. As you said this is only for my personal use. It doesn't have to be perfect, but I'd like to be able to get them on my PC and looking nice. Sifting through .iso files trying to guess which "disc" a particular episode is on is annoying.
edit: perhaps I should go back and look at the original DVD and see if it looked just as bad.....
You should always start from the original source. (the real one, like DVD9, not the shrunk one)
When you have issues with certain scenes, that doesn't affect others, you should do selective filtering. e.g. if you deblock a section that needs it, that's ok, but if you apply filters to other sections that don't need it, they get worse - there are side effects to using any processing. For example, with deblocking, things get blurry; oversharpening sections that don't need it cause ringing, similarly you don't want to denoise sections that don't need it or you lose detail. It's the same idea with deinterlacing the whole thing. You should only deinterlace those hybrid sections that need it. In my example above, I should have applied vinverse only to those sections that needed it, but it was just a quicky demonstration that artifacts got through on your last sample.
At some point there will be diminishing returns. It just depends how involved you want to get
Perhaps the best thing to do in my case would be to author my own "DVD" containing all the episodes of a given series in one large ISO. Obviously that wouldn't fit on a disc unless I compressed them (which I wouldn't be doing in this case), but for the purpose of having them on my PC it seems like a good idea. Then I'll just do as you said and keep getting more HD space.
I guess I'll dust off my old copy of Sony DVD Architect and give that a shot. Iirc it should be able to handle that... unless it whines at me for having a DVD image too large to fit on a disc.
So this topic is pretty much dead at this point, but I wanted to drop in and say one more thing. I did something I figured would likely be stupid and wouldn't work, but I wanted to try anyway. I took the entire opening credit scene (1:31) and applied the default detelecine & decmob filters, weak denoise filter, and deblock filter of 5 (lowest value in HandBrake other than 0). The result is actually rather impressive imo. It's significantly improved from the source ironically, which is funny because I don't THINK this is one of the ones I shrank.... but it might be. The resulting file is about 20MB, and if the ratio holds will result in a complete episode of around 300MB (if I did my math right). By chance, that's exactly what I was aiming for.
Anyway, if either of you are still following this thread, take one final look at it please and let me know what you think. Afterwards I'm going to delete all my attachments in my posts as I feel I've over-done it a bit.
Oh yea, fps: 23.976, and Quality: 60.78% (RF 20)
edit: The only problem remaining for this particular anime (I'm sure I won't be lucky enough for these same settings to work on the other ones I own), is that the subtitles look white, with a kind-of greenish glow about them instead of the flat yellow color they were in the source. Why is that? It's not a HUGE deal, but it is mildly distracting.
It looks slightly over-smoothed to me, but as poisondeathray says, it's what you want and how it looks to you that counts. I agree with you, though, that it's a big step up from the source you showed us. Unfortunately, doing good cleanup without degrading detail and sharpness is difficult and timeconsuming - timeconsuming in both the setup and the encoding. There's a very interesting thread at Doom9 where people, many of them anime encoders, give their favorite filters for various kinds of cleanup. If you get into AviSynth, it might be worth tracking down and experimenting with some of them:
Many of the best filters mentioned are also the slowest and not really useful for your project of quickly compressing your anime to a smaller size. The very first post mentions Vinverse as a 'failsafe' deinterlacer for anime. Poisondeathray also applied it while I let the included TIVTC deinterlacer handle the residual interlacing (in my second attempt). But using Vinverse is probably a better solution.