Improving quality?

[BwanaP]

I had some old Digital 8 tapes (in PAL format) put on DVD. I probably should have had them put directly into avi format, but didn't think about it so they were recorded as DVD movies. I ripped them with DVDx. The tapes seem to have suffered a little as the quality on the DVD is not terrific. However, the avi files played on the computer look even worse then the DVD. I edited a bit with movie maker and the rendered product wasn't even viewable. I need to maintain a higher quality throughout the process and even improve it if I can. The problem is that the edges of objects in the scenes become wavy when the camera pans. The faster it moves the wavier. It is this edge waviness that is getting worse through each step. Are there any particular filters I can try? Particular settings, or other programs I should use to rip?

As for editing, movie maker was just a trial. I have an old Pinnacle Studio 8 version, but seems it only can do type 1 not type 2 avi or vice versa, so that doesn't work. I have just fixed another computer with Sony Vegas. I used to use this and I know the program is good, but don't know if it has better rendering or filters. Any tips on editing with Vegas, re quality? Thanks

[redwudz]

You may need to deinterlace the videos before conversion to AVI type formats. That can cause those types of edge wave problems.

Every conversion has losses. If you use a higher bitrate for the AVI conversion/encode, that may minimize losses. But you may end up with a larger file to keep the quality. You can also use a intermediate format like HuffyUV or Lagarith if you need extensive filtering and you will minimize quality loss, then convert that to your final output. But you will have huge filesizes with those intermediate codecs.

Am I correct in understanding that the files are in DVD format as MPEG-2 at present and you don't have the original tapes available?
I'm not sure what you mean by Type 1 and 2 as that applies to DV, not MPEG. Or are they just recorded as data in MPEG format? But with DV, you can easily convert from Type 1 to Type 2 or the other way.

If you are just doing cuts and pastes, then you shouldn't have to re-encode if the video is already DVD compliant. If you change the framesize or use filters, then you have to re-encode. WMM can only output as WMV or DV, so except for editing, not too useful if you want AVI type output.

[edDV]

So, can you start over with the MiniDV tapes?

All compression is best from the highest quality source. If you chain one compression from another, the quality drops fast.

[BwanaP]

I do have original DV8 tapes, but they are in PAL (camcorder I no longer have) so had to send them to a service to copy/convert. I can't even play them to check quality on those unfortunately (I own the exact same SONY camcorder in NTSC now - long story).

Can't remember the issue with Studio regarding types, but won't use that program anyway. I was doing quite a bit of video before but it has been some years, going to have to learn a bit again. Can you point me to guide on deinterlacing and/or HuffyUV or Lagarith? Is DVDx still a good program for this, I see it has a deinterlace filter.

I have Vegas 4.0, which is what I want to use for editing, have to check on what formats it will accept (like I said, it's been a while). I need to edit extensively, tapes are just raw footage. Maybe I didn't say it right, tapes are now on DVD disk in DVD format (.vob files). That's gotta be ripped to do anything with, right? Eventually I want to render back into DVD (.vob).

[edDV]

I do have original DV8 tapes, but they are in PAL (camcorder I no longer have) so had to send them to a service to copy/convert. I can't even play them to check quality on those unfortunately (I own the exact same SONY camcorder in NTSC now - long story).

Can't remember the issue with Studio regarding types, but won't use that program anyway. I was doing quite a bit of video before but it has been some years, going to have to learn a bit again. Can you point me to guide on deinterlacing and/or HuffyUV or Lagarith? Is DVDx still a good program for this, I see it has a deinterlace filter.

I have Vegas 4.0, which is what I want to use for editing, have to check on what formats it will accept (like I said, it's been a while). I need to edit extensively, tapes are just raw footage. Maybe I didn't say it right, tapes are now on DVD disk in DVD format (.vob files). That's gotta be ripped to do anything with, right? Eventually I want to render back into DVD (.vob).

You can always buy a used PAL D8 camcorder cheap on eBay and recapture the best clips. When you captured to MPeg2 VOB files, how did you do that?

720x576i(interlace)?
Bit rate? (Or hours per DVD?)

DVDx is normally used to convert to Divx or WMV but you say you have MPeg2 VOBs on DVD.

Why do you want to deinterlace? You can edit MPeg2 interlace to MPeg2 interlace.

Deinterlace is brutal to hand held camcorder video unless you shot professionally with tripods and good exposure.

Interlace provides 50 fields (motion increments) per second for smoother motion. If you deinterlace, you force two fields into a blended 25fps frame which is destructive.

I need to maintain a higher quality throughout the process and even improve it if I can.

Best way to do that is recapture from the original DV tapes to DV format. DV-AVI makes the best archive.

Which Vegas product and version? Is it still version 4?

Vegas can work with original DV format (best quality) or MPeg2. You will need to demultiplex your VOB files to MPeg2 video and audio before you can import those into Vegas. Demultiplex is lossless.

I'd advise you recapture if you can, otherwise edit MPeg2 to an Mpeg2 edit master. If you want smaller files for some reason you can also make a divx or h.264 export after you are done editing.

[olyteddy]

Another possibility is to take your NTSC camera to a Sony shop and see if they can use the service remote control to change it to PAL, transfer the tapes and have them swap it back. I had a Sony Hi-8 camera that (according to the service manual) could be changed.

[BwanaP]

Thanks for the ideas, will keep an eye on ebay, only one now for about $70 -relatively cheap for an old camera but this is also a one time deal. Wish I had known more before I paid $50 for the conversion - I originally sent it out to a local company. Will also check in to the service remote idea.

Yes still have Vegas 4.0. So I can use the vob files? What program do I need to demultiplex? Have plenty of space on hard drive.

[edDV]

Here are a bunch. I haven't used any recently. Others can comment.
https://www.videohelp.com/tools?toolsearch=demux&Submit=Search&convert=&s=&orderby=Name&hits=50

Guides
https://www.videohelp.com/guides?searchtext=&tools=&madeby=&formatconversionselect=VOB+...or+List+Guides

[lordsmurf]

The problem happens with what you've done after the DVD.

Rip the DVD - http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/edit-dvd-recorder.htm
Improve in VirtualDub - http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/restore-filter-improve-17.html

[BwanaP]

Lordsmurf - I checked out your links but I don't really know what filtering might benefit my files.

I demuxed the vob with VOB2MPG. Here is a short clip, if you can suggest what might help, if anything.


clip1.mpg

[jagabo]

The two biggest problems with your MPG file are the poor frame rate conversion to make 30i fps out of 25i fps (causing several little jerks every second and torn frames) and the poor resizing algorithm to go from 576 lines to 480 lines (causing the buzzing near horizontal edges). I wouldn't bother doing anything to that file. You will have to go back to the Hi8 tapes and get a proper PAL capture. Then you can look into converting to NTSC.

[lordsmurf]

Some reading on PAL > NTSC
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/convert-pal-ntsc.htm

You need a PAL DVD from the PAL tapes.
Then convert the PAL DVD to NTSC if necessary (and it usually IS NOT necessary). Again, read the link.

[BwanaP]

Thanks for the info. Looks like I may have to head to the place that did the conversion and see what equipment they are using and what they can do for me. Can't find a cheap Sony D8 PAL camcorder online, and I contacted Sony, my camcorder cannot be converted temporarily or otherwise. Tapes are 10 years old and I know they were subjected to the elements some, but hopefully the right capture will be better than what I have now.

So is the best capture going to be straight to DV-avi? That is the most direct kind of transfer? If they aren't using a actual camcorder, would they be using some kind of Hi8/Digital8 tape deck and is that likely to have options for direct output?

[lordsmurf]

The best option is straight PAL to PAL ... don't care if it's PAL DVD or PAL DV AVI. Either way will work. DV is compressed, DVD is compressed. Put 1 hour per DVD, for least compression.

PAL D8 is one of the few I don't have either, otherwise I'd offer to help.

[edDV]

So is the best capture going to be straight to DV-avi? That is the most direct kind of transfer? If they aren't using a actual camcorder, would they be using some kind of Hi8/Digital8 tape deck and is that likely to have options for direct output?

Yes straight to DV-AVI. That results in a data duplicate from tape to DV-AVI file.

You are going to need a PAL D8 camcorder or PAL GV-D200 type D8 deck. Unlike MiniDV, there are no dual standard pro decks that I've ever seen.

A PAL capable dub house will do captures to hard disk but figure ~$50 each so it gets expensive fast if you have multiple tapes.

Best option is to monitor Euro eBay and wait for a D8 camcorder to show up.

[jagabo]

And you'll have to get your hands dirty to get the best out of interlaced PAL to interlaced NTSC conversion. Be prepared for the learning curve.

[lordsmurf]

I see some at ebay.de and ebay.co.uk

[edDV]

If you get a TV that accepts PAL, you don't need to convert.

[BwanaP]

So I'll have a DV-avi or mpeg-2 file in PAL format which I can edit normally using Vegas 4.0. Vegas has an option in the authoring to select NTSC or PAL output, will this not work this straightforward? Or it will work but I'll have too many issues letting this program do it?

[edDV]

It will "work" but generate many artifacts.

Why do you need to convert?

[jagabo]

I would get the video as PAL DV AVI. Then make a PAL DVD. Many players can convert that on-the-fly to NTSC. It probably won't be as good as you might be able to do in software but the PAL DVD will be easy to make and about the best quality you can get on a DVD. Then think about converting the PAL DV AVI to NTSC frame rate and frame size and making an NTSC DVD. Keep backups of your PAL DV AVI too.

[edDV]

You can get an HDTV that accepts PAL. I make this a priority since I have original PAL tapes..

The only reason to convert is for distribution to random NTSC users.

[jagabo]

You can get an HDTV that accepts PAL.

That's an expensive solution unless he's planning on getting a new HDTV anyway.

[BwanaP]

I have a Sharp HDTV, I had never really thought to check if it can display PAL. Of course its not just the TV, I would need a DVD player that can play it as well and maybe my Sony player can do that. Both TV and DVD player are about less than two years old. Indeed I did hope to be able to give a DVD to friends and family to watch though.

Checked the instruction manuals and it doesn't say on either component about PAL or NTSC. I don't have a PAL DVD, any ideas how I can determine if they will work? Someplace to look this up?

TV is Sharp LC-46SB54U
DVD is Sony DAV-HDX275

[jagabo]

Very few TVs in the North America will display PAL video.

[BwanaP]

Visited the shop that did the conversions today and playback from my tapes appeared no different than the DVDs they had made for me. Their conversion was from a Sony PAL Camcorder straight through a blackbox converter directly to the DVD. I suppose a DV-avi would have been better if analyzed, but on screen I saw the same artifacts directly from the camcorder. Anyway I'm not going to spend more money for that conversion unless I come across a PAL camcorder to buy or borrow.

Brings me back then, the buzz does not appear to have come from the conversion but is an artifact on the tapes (at least to my eye and that of the technician who viewed it). Is there any filtering that can soften the whole thing?

[jagabo]

the buzz does not appear to have come from the conversion but is an artifact on the tapes (at least to my eye and that of the technician who viewed it).

Did you really see the PAL video on a PAL TV? Or only through the converter box? I find it hard to believe that any camcorder could produce such artifacts.

[edDV]

May we see an example of this buzz?

[jagabo]

May we see an example of this buzz?

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic378267.html#2042289

Actually, the buzz is not as bad as I remembered it. The tearing is a problem though. About every 6th frame has a tear:



Bobbed and cropped:



The only way I see of fixing this is to go through the video frame by frame and cut/paste.

[BwanaP]

Yes PAL camcorder directly to a multi system TV.

So that tear has to be from the conversion then? I mean the camcorder would not have recorded like that.