Upscaling (player vs. TV), PAL, etc.

[amckinney]

A couple questions about upscaling (I'm in the USA, by the way):

I suppose it's true that upscaling is ONLY possible through the HDMI jacks, right (even if you're using the TV to do the upscaling)?

If this is the case, does anyone know if TRUE multi-system TVs will output both NTSC and PAL signals through the HDMI jack (I know some US TV that can output PAL from composite/S-VHS sources supposedly don't "do" PAL with HDMI, which would, as I read things, not allow any PAL upscaling on American-sold TVs, right? I've read this to be true of Sharp models. Not sure about Vizio or Philips or anyone else.

Anybody know of ANY sets sold in mainstream US stores (i.e. not actual multi-system TVs that lack the digital tuner) that can output a PAL signal through HDMI? I know Sharp is supposedly a no-go, but what about Vizio? Is is true that Philips can also do PAL outputs (I know they disabled PAL and MULTI outputs on their US-marketed DVD players, though there are ways to reverse THAT tampering through firmware).

The reason I ask is I have a LOT of PAL DVDs and am looking to buy an LCD HDTV. Am I worrying over nothing (i.e. is upscaling not of enough benefit with PAL discs to even worry about), or should I really look for something that will upscale my PAL discs?

Another reason I was hoping to buy a mainstream US model (apart from a service/warranty standpoint, as all of the true multi-system sets I've seen come without a US warranty, and I'd also have to order such a set by mail) is so that I'd not have to use an external TV tuner for my local HD channels.

Any advice from those of you experienced in this would be greatly appreciated!

[manono]

I suppose it's true that upscaling is ONLY possible through the HDMI jacks, right (even if you're using the TV to do the upscaling)?

No. One way or another a 720x480/576 DVD has to be upscaled to output, say, 1920x1080, if that's the resolution of the TV set. The player can't upscale without a digital connection (I don't think), either DVI or HDMI, but the TV set will. But you'll want some sort of a digital connection, so it's all academic anyway. I didn't quite understand your reasoning for not wanting to use the HDMI jack.

Am I worrying over nothing?

I'd say so. I think the best thing you can do is just buy a good DVD player (such as an Oppo) that does a good job with PAL DVDs. My PAL DVDs play just fine.

[amckinney]

I didn't quite understand your reasoning for not wanting to use the HDMI jack.

It's not that I don't want to use it, I'd love to, but for US-marketed Sharp models, it has been said that to get a pure PAL picture, you can only use the component or S-Video jacks. In the manual, it states that you cannot change the output system for the HDMI jack, so I'm assuming that means NTSC-only through HDMI (I'd love to be proven wrong and the HDMI output be MULTI, though!)

Am I worrying over nothing?
I'd say so. I think the best thing you can do is just buy a good DVD player (such as an Oppo) that does a good job with PAL DVDs. My PAL DVDs play just fine.

The DVD player's not the problem...My DVD player can play PAL discs just fine, it's just that I'm wanting to find an LCD TV that will do the best possible job with PAL here in the States without standards conversion and, hopefully, a TV that includes the digital TV tuner (in my research, I've been finding that the full-multisystem sets do not have the digital tuner, but on the flipside of the coin, most US-marketed TVs that have the tuner either do not support PAL at all, or they're like the Sharp models, and only support it through component/composite/S-Video and not HDMI, unless someone has different experience than I've read about).

[samijubal]

All HDTVs upconvert to their native resolution. My TV looks just as good or better with a good DVD player outputting 480i as it does with any of 4 or 5 upconvert players I've used. It definitely looks better letting the TV upconvert than the cheapo Philips/Funai junk player's upconversion. There's no reason to get an expensive multi-system TV. Get a Pioneer 420 player, make it region free and you'll be fine.

[amckinney]

All HDTVs upconvert to their native resolution. My TV looks just as good or better with a good DVD player outputting 480i as it does with any of 4 or 5 upconvert players I've used. It definitely looks better letting the TV upconvert than the cheapo Philips/Funai junk players upconversion. There's no reason to get an expensive multi-system TV. Get a Pioneer 420 player, make it region free and you'll be fine.

Sounds great! What make/model of regular US TV do you recommend for an unconverted, pure PAL picture, then? I've only heard people talking of three manufacturers here that even support it: Sharp, Philips and Vizio.

I'm probably looking to buy somewhere around a 50" screen set and am leaning toward LCD. Risk of burn-in is steering me away from plasma, as I'll be watching a lot of 4:3 content (and don't want the pillarbox bars burnt into the display), and there are fewer options in LED (plus higher prices).

[jman98]

amckinney - Your list of the 3 manufacturers that support PAL on US sold HDTVs is probably right. I have Samsung and while they make a great HDTV, it cannot support PAL resolutions at all. I've tried.

LCD TVs are fine. Honestly, I don't know why anyone would want plasma any more the LCD HDTVs are so good.

Finally, do note that S-video is actually a pretty low quality connection. Try it and you will see. Avoid that and use component instead.

[samijubal]

Plasma still has the best possible PQ at this time. If you want to sacrifice picture quality go LCD. I watch 4:3 all the time on a plasma. As long as the TV is broken-in first and you watch some widescreen content too, burn-in isn't an issue.

PAL to NTSC DVDs look fine with a decent quality player.

[manono]

amckinney - Your list of the 3 manufacturers that support PAL on US sold HDTVs is probably right. I have Samsung and while they make a great HDTV, it cannot support PAL resolutions at all. I've tried.

What does that mean, it doesn't support PAL resolutions at all? Your PAL DVDs don't play, or do you mean something else? As far as I know there's no such thing as a PAL resolution when it comes to fixed pixel displays such as LCDs. There's only the resolution of the TV set. Whether NTSC or PAL DVD, one way or another they all get displayed at the TV's native resolution. My TV brand (Sony) hasn't been mentioned, but it shows no issues at all when playing PAL DVDs over HDMI. Is there something more subtle here I should be checking?

Oh, and my previous TV was a Samsung DLP, and while it had problems of its own, it also played my PAL DVDs fine.

PAL to NTSC DVDs look fine with a decent quality player.

I agree.

[victoriabears]

the pioneer 420 dvd player upscales and plays pal on ntsv tv and the oppo is not worth the money-my 2 cents worth.

[edDV]

This can get complicated.

Many DVD players don't play PAL DVD at all.
Some DVD players play PAL as PAL, others convert to NTSC 480i or 480p output.
Of the DVD players that play PAL, some upscale to 720p, 1080i or 1080p.

Some US model HDTV sets specifically block any PAL (50 Hz) input. They do this to prevent export.
Few US model HDTV sets have PAL decoders (unless multi-standard). Therefore composite or S-Video will show monochrome or not at all.
Many US model HDTV sets display PAL from analog components. Some of these accept upscaled 50Hz source.
Some US model HDTV sets display PAL from HDMI input.

Here is what I'd do in your situation. Get a PAL capable player that can play PAL as PAL. Better yet get one that can output PAL as 576i/50, 720p/50 or 1080i/50. Take the player to the TV store and ask to test the models of interest. You can't assume other models from the same manufacturer will handle PAL the same way. They use different processors by series or model year.

In my experience, Chinese made HDTV sets are most likely to accept PAL. Japan, Korea and Taiwan are on the NTSC standard.

Of the HDTV sets I have here, this is what I've found...

Philips HD CRT accepts PAL 720x576i as analog components. S-Video is monochrome.

Vizio 19" HDTV/monitor accepts PAL as S-Video or analog components. HDMI untested.
Vizio 20" HDTV/monitor accepts PAL as S-Video or analog components. HDMI untested.

Both are made in China

I also have two Samsung HDTV sets that I haven't tested for PAL.

[edDV]

I just tested the Samsung 2333HD TV for 720x576i PAL and it displayed "Mode Not Supported".

[amckinney]

Here is what I'd do in your situation. Get a PAL capable player that can play PAL as PAL.

That part of the equation has been sorted out for quite a long time, so no worries there. All of my currrent DVD players can be switched from NTSC to PAL and/or MULTISTANDARD output.

Take the player to the TV store and ask to test the models of interest.

I did ask one store if I could do this when I started my research. It'll be a little bit of a pain, but it would seem a necessary step if I want to avoid the potential for having to bring home/take back multiple TV sets.

In my experience, Chinese made HDTV sets are most likely to accept PAL. Japan, Korea and Taiwan are on the NTSC standard.

That's logical. One of the most notorious non-PAL brands (for US models) is the Japanese owned/made Panasonic.

I also have two Samsung HDTV sets that I haven't tested for PAL.

I read elsewhere (I think on these boards) that none of the Samsung sets made for the US market will play nice with PAL.

[amckinney]

Here is what I'd do in your situation. Get a PAL capable player that can play PAL as PAL.

That part of the equation has been sorted out for quite a long time, so no worries there. All of my currrent DVD players can be switched from NTSC to PAL and/or MULTISTANDARD output and I have one 'tube' Multistandard TV set in the house that I've used to confirm this with.

Take the player to the TV store and ask to test the models of interest.

I did ask one store if I could do this when I started my research. It'll be a little bit of a pain, but it would seem a necessary step if I want to avoid the potential for having to bring home/take back multiple TV sets.

In my experience, Chinese made HDTV sets are most likely to accept PAL. Japan, Korea and Taiwan are on the NTSC standard.

That's logical. One of the most notorious non-PAL brands (for US models) is the Japanese owned/made Panasonic.

I also have two Samsung HDTV sets that I haven't tested for PAL.

I read elsewhere (I think on these boards) that none of the Samsung sets made for the US market will play nice with PAL.

[jman98]

amckinney - Your list of the 3 manufacturers that support PAL on US sold HDTVs is probably right. I have Samsung and while they make a great HDTV, it cannot support PAL resolutions at all. I've tried.

What does that mean, it doesn't support PAL resolutions at all? Your PAL DVDs don't play, or do you mean something else? As far as I know there's no such thing as a PAL resolution when it comes to fixed pixel displays such as LCDs. There's only the resolution of the TV set. Whether NTSC or PAL DVD, one way or another they all get displayed at the TV's native resolution. My TV brand (Sony) hasn't been mentioned, but it shows no issues at all when playing PAL DVDs over HDMI. Is there something more subtle here I should be checking?

Oh, and my previous TV was a Samsung DLP, and while it had problems of its own, it also played my PAL DVDs fine.

PAL to NTSC DVDs look fine with a decent quality player.

I agree.

Surprised you care at all, but since you asked, if I set one of my DVD players to PAL output, the Samsung attempts to display the image, but what you get is in color, but the image is horribly off center and only maybe 50-60% of it is viewable. The Samsung manual that came with my TV states that it cannot accept PAL inputs. Many HDTVs sold in North America cannot correctly display PAL input.

[manono]

Surprised you care at all...

Hehe, I don't know why you'd be surprised. OK, I understand, but when you set the player for NTSC output you can then watch PAL DVDs, right? And you don't have any issues, do you? What kinds of things might happen if you play PAL DVDs on an NTSC TV set? Are they supposed to play jerky or something? NTSC people already have 3:2 pulldown so it's not as if we have a smooth-as-silk viewing experience anyway, although it doesn't bother me. So how is the equivalent of 3:2:2:3:2 pulldown going to provide a fundamentally different viewing experience? Why the importance of having a multi-sytem TV set for viewing PAL DVDs? The Oppos all do 2:2 pulldown, so that's not a problem, although I expect that many, if not most, NTSC DVD players that can play PAL DVDs will just deinterlace them since almost all movies on PAL DVD are encoded as interlaced.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

[jman98]

Yes, if I set my DVD players to NTSC output (I only own converting players, by the way) then PAL DVDs are fine on my TV. I have not noticed any jerkiness when playing PAL DVDs.

[victoriabears]

I have had Philips/Daytek and now the Pioneer 420 dvd players playing pal dvd 's on my ntsc tv's (never even thought about all the issues mentioned) since dvd's were invented and never had an issue.

[amckinney]

Surprised you care at all...

Hehe, I don't know why you'd be surprised. OK, I understand, but when you set the player for NTSC output you can then watch PAL DVDs, right? And you don't have any issues, do you? What kinds of things might happen if you play PAL DVDs on an NTSC TV set?

I'm not the one you've been talking with, but one reason there are those of us who would prefer to be fully multi-system is to elimiate the need for standards conversion. Yes, modern DVD players do a decent-enough job at standards conversion, but even so, there is still a quality loss when using the player's built-in standards converter. It's definitely not up to the same quality as a professional standards converter as used by TV networks.

One very noticeable quality hit that PAL material takes by being converted (in-player) to NTSC: for studio-bound productions (such as all the 'indoors', shot-on-tape scenes, not the 'outdoors' on-film stuff) is that there is (on all players I've had experienece with) a slight jerkiness that makes the footage take on an almost shot-on-film appearance, rather than it fluid 'live-on-videotape' natural look.

In comparing true PAL output (on my small tube multisystem set) against the NTSC conversion (using the same player for both settings on the same TV set), I can notice a big difference in a pure PAL output versus an NTSC one. It is especially noticeable on some (admittedly) rare cases of shows that were originally in PAL, transferred to NTSC, and re-transferred to PAL (such as the long-lost episodes of the British show Moonbase 3). The triple conversion ('70s era NTSC transfer that was retransferred to PAL for home video distribution and then re-transferred in the player to NTSC) looks absolutely horrible: jerky/filmic, a bit dark and overly blurry (the latter a consequence of the '70s standards conversion to be sure), while it's just about bearable watching it in PAL.

For the average person, yes, the player's standards converter is good enough, but for people like me who have extensive PAL libraries, and large amounts of PAL material that's not of the shot-on-film variety, it's worth doing a bit of research to try to find a set that will display PAL, particularly as some of them can be bought at regular retail without having to go the old route of the import/export dealers with expensive foreign equipment that has no US warranty.

[victoriabears]

One thing I find amazing is that divx/xvid type files do not seem to care about pal/ntsc and i watched something last night on my 46" LCD Sony using the now hated Philips 5990 (not by me ), and it was really really nice quality.

i was a hi-fi buff in the 1980's and I gotta tell ya, you have to be careful caring more about the quality rather than enjoy the content.

[amckinney]

One thing I find amazing is that divx/xvid type files do not seem to care about pal/ntsc and i watched something last night on my 46" LCD Sony using the now hated Philips 5990 (not by me ), and it was really really nice quality.

I have a 5990. What are people hating about that model? Last reviews I read praised it since it meant that Philips upgraded the on-board USB to 2.0.

i was a hi-fi buff in the 1980's and I gotta tell ya, you have to be careful caring more about the quality rather than enjoy the content.

I know what you mean, and if this were the old days (of having overseas specialists with their 'at least double the price of NTSC sets' imports being the only option), I wouldn't even be looking, but since I know that PAL-friendly TV sets can now be bought for the same money as the PAL-crippled ones, I figure why not?

[edDV]

amckinney - Your list of the 3 manufacturers that support PAL on US sold HDTVs is probably right. I have Samsung and while they make a great HDTV, it cannot support PAL resolutions at all. I've tried.

What does that mean, it doesn't support PAL resolutions at all? Your PAL DVDs don't play, or do you mean something else? As far as I know there's no such thing as a PAL resolution when it comes to fixed pixel displays such as LCDs. There's only the resolution of the TV set. Whether NTSC or PAL DVD, one way or another they all get displayed at the TV's native resolution. My TV brand (Sony) hasn't been mentioned, but it shows no issues at all when playing PAL DVDs over HDMI. Is there something more subtle here I should be checking?

The issue is mainly 50Hz but also 576 lines for SD. Manufacturers that want to block "PAL" support will block 25p, 50p and 25i (aka 50i).

[manono]

I'm not the one you've been talking with, but one reason there are those of us who would prefer to be fully multi-system is to elimiate the need for standards conversion. Yes, modern DVD players do a decent-enough job at standards conversion, but even so, there is still a quality loss when using the player's built-in standards converter. It's definitely not up to the same quality as a professional standards converter as used by TV networks.

That's just plain incorrect. 'Professional standards converter' for broadcasting? They just fieldblend the crap out of it and it's pure unadulterated garbage. A movie on PAL DVD done correctly (speeded up rather than field blended) looks way better on NTSC television than anything I've seen broadcast on NTSC television that started life as PAL. I'm referring specifically to BBC stuff when shown on American television. Of course, the DVDs of those shows made for NTSC are pretty poor as well. A 25fps movie on PAL DVD might have the PAL speedup and out-of-pitch audio, but won't have any of the issues with blurriness/jerkiness.

One very noticeable quality hit that PAL material takes by being converted (in-player) to NTSC: for studio-bound productions (such as all the 'indoors', shot-on-tape scenes, not the 'outdoors' on-film stuff) is that there is (on all players I've had experienece with) a slight jerkiness that makes the footage take on an almost shot-on-film appearance, rather than it fluid 'live-on-videotape' natural look.

I presume you're talking about interlaced sources. Yes, I can see how there might be problems converting that for NTSC. I'm not sure I've seen any that was broadcast. I've seen some that was converted for NTSC DVD and it wasn't pretty.

In comparing true PAL output (on my small tube multisystem set) against the NTSC conversion (using the same player for both settings on the same TV set), I can notice a big difference in a pure PAL output versus an NTSC one.

Maybe you just haven't seen any played on a good NTSC DVD player that does a proper conversion from PAL. I'm not sure I believe you that the quality will be any worse when played over an NTSC TV set. My PAL movies (including a couple I have in both PAL and NTSC DVDs) look identical on the TV set. The only difference with using an NTSC Hi-Def set as compared to one that runs on 50Hz should be the frame repeats. The video quality should be pretty much identical. But as I said, most players will deinterlace the PAL DVD; a good player won't. Your Philips DVP5990 seems to be OK in that regard as it handles 2-2 cadences properly.

[amckinney]

I'm not the one you've been talking with, but one reason there are those of us who would prefer to be fully multi-system is to elimiate the need for standards conversion. Yes, modern DVD players do a decent-enough job at standards conversion, but even so, there is still a quality loss when using the player's built-in standards converter. It's definitely not up to the same quality as a professional standards converter as used by TV networks.

That's just plain incorrect. 'Professional standards converter' for broadcasting? They just fieldblend the crap out of it and it's pure unadulterated garbage.

Are you trying to tell me the built-in converter on a sub $50 DVD player is just as good as on a $60,000 Snell & Wilcox Alchemist? If so, we must agree to disagree on that one (I know some people at BBC Resources who would disagree with you, too, if that's what you're saying). That was certainly the comparison I was trying to make.

A movie on PAL DVD done correctly (speeded up rather than field blended) looks way better on NTSC television than anything I've seen broadcast on NTSC television that started life as PAL. I'm referring specifically to BBC stuff when shown on American television. Of course, the DVDs of those shows made for NTSC are pretty poor as well.

Part of the reason for that, though, is that BBC Worldwide have a bad habit of using really, really old masters when they send their syndicated shows out to the USA. Even today, some of their distribution tapes are from masters that were standards-converted in the 1970s. Standards conversion technology has gotten much, much better since then, but if Wordwide have a tape on the shelf, they tend to just re-distribute it rather than having new masters made. What you're seeing on TV (and, likely, on many of the DVDs) is just because the NTSC transfers used on their source tapes are several years old.



A 25fps movie on PAL DVD might have the PAL speedup and out-of-pitch audio, but won't have any of the issues with blurriness/jerkiness.

One very noticeable quality hit that PAL material takes by being converted (in-player) to NTSC: for studio-bound productions (such as all the 'indoors', shot-on-tape scenes, not the 'outdoors' on-film stuff) is that there is (on all players I've had experienece with) a slight jerkiness that makes the footage take on an almost shot-on-film appearance, rather than it fluid 'live-on-videotape' natural look.

Maybe you just haven't seen any played on a good NTSC DVD player that does a proper conversion from PAL. I'm not sure I believe you that the quality will be any worse when played over an NTSC TV set. My PAL movies (including a couple I have in both PAL and NTSC DVDs) look identical on the TV set. The only difference with using an NTSC Hi-Def set as compared to one that runs on 100Hz should be the frame repeats. The video quality should be pretty much identical. But as I said, most players will deinterlace the PAL DVD; a good player won't. Your Philips DVP5990 seems to be OK in that regard as it handles 2-2 cadences properly.

And I contend that a pure PAL signal output in true PAL by definition will look better than any player-generated standards conversion to NTSC. Any standards conversion (NTSC to PAL or PAL to NTSC) would have to be at least slightly inferior to the original source. Certainly noticeable it on my Multisystem and NTSC tube TVs.

[edDV]

A good place to watch modern HD "PAL" 25i to "NTSC" 29.97i standards conversion is on the cable Palladia channel. They run many recent UK concerts some shot 1080/25i, others shot on film or with 24p HD cameras. Standards conversion frame interpolation artifacts show most with motion (especially pans) or from background noise. Night or studio concerts show considerable low luminance noise artifacts.

[manono]

Are you trying to tell me the built-in converter on a sub $50 DVD player is just as good as on a $60,000 Snell & Wilcox Alchemist?

No, I'm saying when it's done right (and it often isn't) there's nothing really to convert but the framerate for PAL movies on DVD played to an NTSC progressive display. It gets resized and scaled in the player, and rather than being sent to the TV set in a 32 32 32 frame repeat pattern, as is true for progressive NTSC movies on NTSC DVD, it gets sent to the TV set in a 32232 32232 pattern of frame repeats (for a 60Hz set). As for PAL sources converted for NTSC broadcast, when I can see the blending/blurring/strobing/jerkiness on slow pans and other kinds of movement, I don't care what they used, it's a mess. If they interpolate new frames, then invariably they leave behind noticeable artifacts. I agree that there's no ideal solution for interlaced PAL sources, but for progressive sources it's inexcuseable.

What you're seeing on TV (and, likely, on many of the DVDs) is just because the NTSC transfers used on their source tapes are several years old.

Possibly. I haven't seen the original 'The Office' on TV, although I may soon, but the DVDs were fieldblended as well, and they're reasonably recent. That's a fairly recent BBC series that, as far as I know, was shot on film. I wouldn't expect the TV broadcasts to be any different.

[amckinney]

Possibly. I haven't seen the original 'The Office' on TV, although I may soon, but the DVDs were fieldblended as well, and they're reasonably recent. That's a fairly recent BBC series that, as far as I know, was shot on film. I wouldn't expect the TV broadcasts to be any different.

It might have been shot on film, but it's more likely (being the BBC) that it was shot on videotape and altered in post-production to appear as if it was shot on film ("filmised"). Starting in the latter '90s, several British TV shows used this method (and still do) to try to have the look of film, but without the expense. Earlier attempts at this process (such as the seventh season of Red Dwarf, which was about 5 years before The Office) were seen by many as really bad in picture quality. Perhaps the most recent example of interlaced standard-definition video being filmised was the first four series of the new Doctor Who.

[amckinney]

In case some of you were curious, I tested a few TV sets with my DVD player and PAL discs recently. The Sharp models (including the new Quattron sets) do correctly display a PAL/50 picture, as expected. So did an LG set that I tried and a Sony Bravia (which, according to the salesman, is actually made by Sharp).

They did a poor job with motion, though, until I switched off all that automatic processing crap (like 24p film mode and 120Hz motion processing) that were turned on by default in the store. All those "bells and whistles" were making film stuff look like video and made a car chase from Life on Mars a stuttering mess, but once I got to play around with the remote, I was able to fix that!

[SingSing]

The best bet is still get a NTSC DVD player that can play PAL disc. I have a pioneer DVD player can do just that.
I am quite sure some of the upscaling dvd player can do the same. Since DVD discs just carry a bunch of color dots, and the players are the one frame them and embedded them into a video signal.

Unfortunately, companies don't advertised them.

[amckinney]

The best bet is still get a NTSC DVD player that can play PAL disc. I have a pioneer DVD player can do just that.

Not if you want the best quality, it isn't. It's one thing to be able to play PAL discs (which a lot of US players do by converting the signal into NTSC format). It's quite another to be able to buy a US player that will allow you to correctly output a PAL disc in PAL format.

And, yes, there is a very noticeable difference in picture quality. I bought one of those Sharp TVs last August (the 60" E88UN) and an Oppo BDP-83 Blu-Ray player (which allows true PAL output) and the difference in a pure PAL picture on that set and an in-player conversion to NTSC is quite striking. The NTSC-converted picture is noticeably darker than the unaltered one, and also, for video-based material (such as UK dramas and sitcoms), the converted picture has a fake film-like appearance to it rather than the intended video look.

For the best quality with PAL discs, the best combination is a TV that can handle a PAL signal, and a player that can output it without conversion.

The easiest solution is, as you suggested, a standard player and any old TV, because, as you said, most standard players are compatible with the discs, unadvertised (as they convert them to the US standard)[/QUOTE]