Canon VIXIA Cameras?

[Ron B]

Even though my trusty Sony TRV900 is still cranking out great video; I'm wanting to move up to HD. I can't afford to buy a 3CCD higher end "prosumer" camera; as much as I'd like to, I need to make an intermediate step right now.
Sony doesn't have any cameras in the price range I'm looking at so I've focused in on the Canon VIXIA cameras like the HFS10 or HFS100. No optical viewfinder is going to take some getting used to, no LANC connection; I know I'm going to have to give up some things I want on a camera. Still; in the $800-1000USD price range; they seem like the best buy.
I like the removable media so I'm leaning towards the HFS100. What about wide angle adapters and batteries? Anyone have any feedback, advice or insight into this line of Canon camcorders?

[Soopafresh]

Yes, they're very good for the price. Raynox carries high quality wide angle adapters for them for around $120. There are less expensive ones out there as well. The HFS100 uses a 58mm thread, BTW. You can also buy 3hr batteries for them for under $50.

The big limitation on all consumer level HD camcorders is rolling shutter distortion, aka jello effect. You can't pan too fast or shake your camcorder without introducing, well...rolling shutter distortion.

Here's an extreme example. http://vimeo.com/6768821

[jagabo]

A better rolling shutter demo:

http://vimeo.com/3577044

Note how the vertical beam seems to lean from side to side with motion.

[Ron B]

Yeah, not too happy with the selection of cameras in the sub $3000 price range. The rolling shutter problem is a worry; I'll be shooting some fast moving sports like snowboarding and mountain biking; panning is a regular technique. I don't think a camera with a rolling shutter is going to work for me.
Does a 3 CMOS camera like the Sony FX7 have the same rolling shutter issue, or is it just with single chip cameras?

[jagabo]

The problem has to do with the way CMOS sensors are exposed and sampled one line at a time:

http://www.dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

So 3 CMOS sensor cameras should have the same issue. CCD sensors are exposed all at once so don't have the problem.

[Ron B]

Bummer. Hard to believe a $2000 camera would have that kind of problem.
Kind of throws a bucket of cold water on the HD fire.

[Soopafresh]

You just have to be careful when you're shooting. You can still get great footage, even with lots of movement. He's using a Canon 5D MKII, a camera that also suffers from rolling shutter but the shots look quite smooth.

http://www.vimeo.com/4770537

[aedipuss]

if you are looking more pro than consumer then a cam more along these lines is required.

http://www.usa.canon.com/app/html/HDV/index.shtml

[Ron B]

Oh I know what pro cameras are available; I just can't afford a big buck pro camera right now. If I win the Lotto; I'd get a Canon XL or Panasonic AG tomorrow. Those are the kind of cameras you buy when you are getting paid to shoot; and I don't mean wedding videos.
I'm hoping to get a decent camera for my "privately-funded" projects. I shoot mostly outdoors in more extreme conditions; so equipment is always at risk, so the cheapest camera that will get the job done is what I'm looking for.

[aedipuss]

consumer avchd video isn't exactly nice to edit. an intermediate codec like cineform neoscene is pretty much a requirement. i'd stick to HDV tape. the hv20/30/40 line of cams is fairly cheap. add a decent mic and get good at slow pans or out of focus backgrounds and you're good to go.

[Soopafresh]

Look at the GoPro action cameras. Less than $300 in many cases.

http://www.vimeo.com/8344872

http://www.vimeo.com/7674096

http://www.goprocamera.com/pdfcatalog

[Ron B]

I might look at the Canon HV since I have a camera that uses DV tape (Sony TRV900). I'm familiar with the GoPro and Contour cameras; I have a very good C mount CCD POV camera that S Videos into the TRV900 (as a source deck); all in waterproof housings; but maybe something like a GoPro might be an option. The Contour and GoPro have fixed focal length lenses; wide angle so anything more than a few feet away is a speck, all the footage pretty much looks the same. Helmet cam footage from these cameras is a dime a dozen.
That's the way it is; gotta try and make something work; that's where skill with a camera comes in.

[Soopafresh]

I've had an HV30 for the past few years and it's been rock solid. At least the HDV output will be less CPU intensive to process than AVCHD (although that's not as serious of an issue since you have an I7)

[Ron B]

I took a closer look at the GoPro; it has a CMOS sensor, I assume the Contour does as well. How do they swing a POV camera with the rolling shutter issues?

[jagabo]

I think they still have the rolling shutter distortions. But with a wide angle lens the video has so much spherical distortion it's hard to see the rolling shutter problems. And, of course, they cherry picked shots.

[Ron B]

The GoPro and Contour are popular with mountain bike riders; I'll check out some of the videos at MTBR.

[Ron B]

Looks like Canon's new HFS 20, HFS 21 and HFS 200 will be coming out in a month or two, so the price of the HFS 10 and HFS 100 are dropping. The 20 and 21 look like the same cameras as the 10 and 100; only with two memory slots. I think the HFS 11 has two memory slots.

[mp3superfreak]

Looks like Canon's new HFS 20, HFS 21 and HFS 200 will be coming out in a month or two, so the price of the HFS 10 and HFS 100 are dropping. The 20 and 21 look like the same cameras as the 10 and 100; only with two memory slots. I think the HFS 11 has two memory slots.

I believe another difference of the new HFS 2x /200 series is the native 24p capture. I'm keeping my eye on HFS10/100 prices as well and may pick one up if they drop a little more. I've seen the HF-S100 for as low as $749 US.

[Ron B]

I went ahead and got a GoPro HD camera to check out the "rolling shutter" issues and also to explore the AVCHD experience. I'm still thinking about the VIXIA; especially if the price continues to drop.
The wide angle lens of the GoPro seems to pretty much take care of the the rolling shutter issues; but this camera is very limited in what you can do with it; only very basic settings. Cool little rig though; takes care of POV jobs.
Haven't tried to make a "standard" DVD with the 1080p footage yet; I guess you can make some kind of 16:9 video with MPEG2. The raw footage plays great with WMP and VLC; that's with a QuadCore system though. I can edit the footage with Vegas 9 or render it as AVI and edit it in Premiere.
I have noticed there seems to be a shortage of 32G SDHC cards; maybe due to the popularity of these kinds of cameras. I would be OK with a VIXIA with one memory slot if the price came down when the two slot models come out.

[Soopafresh]

I've seen a lot of impressive footage with the GoPro. The sound is horrible but that's not the point.

[Ron B]

I've used the GoPro a few times now. It works well with ideal lighting, not so hot in flat or low light. Because it's so small; you really have to hold it steady. The videographer doing the polecam footage of the freestyle skier was unbelievably steady. I wonder how much footage was needed to get the shots for that promo vid.
That being said; for a $300 HD camera, it does a good enough job. Rigging a POV cam with a camera and source deck like we've been doing in the past; is expensive and complicated; the GoPro will make it a little easier and cheaper.