Are DVD-R/DL (double layer MINUS R) incompatible with ISO/MDS for +R/DL?

[miamicanes]

A few weeks ago, I bought 3 25-packs of DVD-R/DL discs from CompUSA on Adam Smith Day (the day after Thanksgiving, when Americans honor the father of capitalism by congregating in our vast cathedrals of commerce and spending money like there's no tomorrow). At the time, I was mildly surprised to notice that they were MINUS-R double-layer discs... it was the first time I'd ever SEEN a dual-layer "Minus" disc, and always just kind of assumed that dual-layer discs existed only in "+R" form.

As of now, I've had two attempted burns fail (more or less) halfway through. I ripped the originals to ISO/MDS with DVD Decrypter, just like I've been doing for the past 5+ years. The disc burned to a +R/DL disc without problems. I attempted the first burn to the DVD-R/DL with DVD Decrypter, and the second attempt was made using Nero 8. Both burned ~50%, then failed.

Officially, my DVD recorder (Lite-ON LH-20A1L) supports DVD-R/DL discs at 2x, 4x, and (I think) 8x. I've burned DVD+R, DVD-R, and DVD+R/DL discs without problems... and not just cherry-picked Verbatim discs, either. The -R/DL discs are the first I've encountered with the current drive that failed while burning.

Is there known to be some specific problem with -R/DL discs? I've searched (well, as much as you CAN meaningfully search when the only difference between the search terms is a character most search engines ignore as whitespace), but haven't really found anything tangible yet.

(argh, just realized this should have been posted to the 'media' subforum, and it's too late to delete... mods, please move it there if appropriate...)

[MOVIEGEEK]

DVD-R DL are only recommended for data not video, the reason is the structure and error correction is different. I would try ImgBurn for burning because it optimizes DL but there's no guarantee that DVD-R DL will work on players.
Verbatim DVD+R DL is your best bet.

[aedipuss]

if they are failing while burning then they are just bad discs. there is still a good argument for only buying verbatim dl+r. unlike single layer discs dl is much harder to manufacture correctly and to get to work in players. nothing else has ever come close.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Fun fact:
The DVD Forum calls DVD-R DL "Dual Layer"
The DVD+RW Alliance calls DVD+R DL "Double Layer"

[miamicanes]

> I would try ImgBurn for burning because it optimizes DL

Can I still use DVD Decrypter for ripping the .iso, or do I need to use some other program for that, too? Are there any non-obvious settings that need to be changed for DVD-R/DL?

It's frustrating... if you look at Wikipedia (and the same articles that end up accounting for most of Google's results), you'd walk away convinced there's no significant difference between the two... but then you find a few dozen references via Google that say little more than that the -R DL discs are "bad" for video, or hint that something needs to be done "differently" for them to work (without actually saying WHAT specifically needs to be done differently).

> there is still a good argument for only buying verbatim dl+r

I don't think anyone will argue that Verbatim discs aren't among the best... but when you're talking about discs whose cost is still quoted in dollars, vs a 25-pack for $10, there comes a point when it makes more sense to chuck the old drive and replace it with a newer one that can handle the cheaper discs instead of buying hideously expensive discs forever. My old BenQ drive turned every non-Verbatim DL it touched into a coaster. The Lite-On drive that replaced it has burned more than a hundred bargain-bin CMC DL discs without a hitch, and paid for itself from the savings of a single 25-pack. I'm just trying to figure out right now whether it's a case of my current drive just being too old to deal with newer, cheaper discs, or something more fundamental (like the software used to burn the disc itself). The fact that the highest-rated enthusiast drives seem to have the worst failure rates with non-premium discs doesn't exactly help, either.

[jman98]

miamicanes - I know for a fact that you did NOT buy Verbatim DVD-R DL. Know how I know that? Verbatim doesn't sell them in 25 packs. Know what else I know? You wasted your money on the discs. If I just absolutely had to have -R DL for some insane reason I would buy Verbatim and nothing else. Taiyo Yuden does make -R DL discs, but they don't export them to North America and they are only available in incredibly expensive 100 packs. That's right, 100 packs. DVD-R DL discs by Verbatim sell for about $4 each. If you buy a TY 100 pack in Europe, you can get it for just under $300, which is almost $3 per disc. Compare that to whatever you paid and you'll understand that any sale you might have seen on the discs wasn't much of a bargain when the good ones cost about $3 in bulk and what you got is going in the trash because it won't burn correctly.

Your only hope that they will burn correctly is to use ImgBurn. That's it. DVD-R DL media was kind of force fitted into the DVD-R specs to make it work. There's some really weird stuff that had to be done to get them to work at all. ImgBurn is the only program I know of that can correctly set the layer break on -R DL media. When it comes to single layer media, I don't really see any difference between -R and +R, but the technology behind +R DL and +RW is simply superior to what the minus camp offers.

There are a lot more incompatibility issues with -R DL discs than with +R DL discs. However, any good quality recently made DVD player should play them. Burning them correctly is a whole other matter as you have found out.

[miamicanes]

whoa, I never said the DVD-R/DL discs I bought were Verbatim... I was just conceding that Verbatim discs are more or less universally regarded as being the best

The discs I bought were obviously mediocre... but that's ok, as long as the burn completes and they last longer than it takes my 3 year old niece to destroy them while the original safely remains on the shelf

For the record, the discs I bought are Imation. Manufacturer ID = CMC MAG. AD8

I'll give ImgBurn a try now

[miamicanes]

Oops, problem #1... I got the following error:

"Cannot set the layer break position when burning DVD-R DL media. Do you want to continue?"

Is that just a paranoid warning I can safely swat away, am I SOL, or do I have to do something else, first?

[Jim44]

As has already been mentioned, DVD-R DL media is not recommended for video use, because of issues with the layer break.

Check out this thread at the Imgburn forum:
http://forum.imgburn.com/index.php?showtopic=6290

Maybe "Build" mode will work better, as mention in post #2 in that thread. I can't say for sure, I've only ever used DVD+R DL discs.

[miamicanes]

OK, just to make sure I'm understanding... what I need to do is:

1a) re-rip the DVD to files (*.VOB, etc) instead of ISO
or
1b) Use WinRAR to extract the already-created ISO to a temp dir

2) Use ImgBurn's 'Build' mode with the DVD-R DL profile to create the .iso file

3) Burn the .iso file to the DVD-R DL disc using ImgBurn

Right?

For future use & to avoid painting myself into a corner, can I get away with just BUILD'ing .iso files for -R DL, with the assumption that -R/DL imposes restrictions +R/DL doesn't, but the changes necessary to accommodate -R/DL's demands won't render it un-burnable to +R/DL?

[aedipuss]

build mode will burn to disc without making an iso first. put it in build mode select the movie folder, select the drive. go.

[miamicanes]

OK, now it's asking where I want to create the layer break position (strange, because I thought the whole point of -R/DL was that you didn't have any choice in the matter). It looks like it picked two adjacent IFrames... the 'average' choice has SPLIP=Yes, the 'very good' choice has SPLIP=No. The 'seamless' and 'don't update ifo/bup files' options are un-checked. I can also Ignore layer break options.

Recommendations?

[Jim44]

There's a guide here:
http://forum.imgburn.com/index.php?showtopic=1780

[miamicanes]

OK, it appears to have worked (the disc burned, and seems to play fine in the DVD player). Thanks for the info about ImgBurn!

[jman98]

whoa, I never said the DVD-R/DL discs I bought were Verbatim... I was just conceding that Verbatim discs are more or less universally regarded as being the best

The discs I bought were obviously mediocre... but that's ok, as long as the burn completes and they last longer than it takes my 3 year old niece to destroy them while the original safely remains on the shelf

For the record, the discs I bought are Imation. Manufacturer ID = CMC MAG. AD8

I'll give ImgBurn a try now

Nor did I say that you said you bought Verbatim. To put what I meant another way, I knew just based on the information you gave earlier that you did not buy Verbatim because Verbatim doesn't sell 25 packs of DVD-R DL discs. And since I know you didn't buy Verbatim and we know around here that non-Verbatim DL discs are very unreliable, you may have wasted your money. Imation is a known low quality manufacturer. They are cheap for a reason - they suck.

[lordsmurf]

has burned more than a hundred bargain-bin CMC DL discs without a hitch, and paid for itself from the savings of a single 25-pack.

Burn about 500 discs, test them all, and get back to me.
I'll bet that you'll end up with a mix of good burns and supremely crappy burns.

CMC = unreliable
I posted on this just yesterday http://club.myce.com/f33/whats-cmc-mag-am3-media-like-240243/index2.html
Start at post #31 and work downwards

25 untested CMC discs that burned "without a hitch" doesn't mean anything.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that's just how it goes.

[johns0]

I agree with lordsmurf,cmc media is a gamble to burn with,you can get quite a few average burns and then you get utter crap wasting discs,i burn with them cause they are the only dvds around where i live but i have found a source of mcc dvds at canadian tire,hard to believe they sell them but they burn much better than the cmc.

Those kprobe scans are meaningless as well,i scanned discs that came with excellent results and play like crap in my ps2(backup) and then have discs scanned with far worse results that play flawlessly.

By the way its dash and not minus for dvd-r.