FPS issue.

[Rii]

Hey guys. Never posted here before.

But anyway,

I have a Panasonic TM200GN-K (AVCHD). Yeah, yeah, i know, AVCHD is a horrible format yadda yadda yadda. I thought I had done my research but if you have no idea of HDV's existance then it kind of stays off your radar. If you try and read up on the model of cam I have, you will be hard pressed to come across anything as it looks like it is a country specific model (Australia/New Zealand). From what I can tell it's an indentical model (from the spec sheets) to the TM300 bar the storage capacity.

The issue I'm having is being able to retain the fuildity and smoothness of the raw .MTS files. They are super smooth and fluid when playing them back in the proprietary Panasonic software (HD Writer) and Windows Media Player 12. But when I go to edit those files in Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 it seems to drop the smoothness quite considerably.

When looking at the details of the recorded footage, it reports that it was shot at 25FPS, and I always setup Premiere Pro projects to reflect that and always use the same when I go to export the finished project.

Is there anything I can do to or something I can use to retain 100% of the original FPS quality? I have tried Sony Vegas as well but to no avail. I have also tried converting software to convert it to something more friendly before importing it to editing software but I haven't found ANYTHING that seems to retain the picture quality let alone the FPS quality.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I thought I would try and include all the information in the first post!

Thanks!

[aedipuss]

sounds like a computer speed problem. playing back avchd is hard on most computers, editing it is murder. there are very few that can edit it ok. maybe a dedicated dual quad i7. either get used to poor editing performance or buy and use an intermediate codec like cineform neoscene for editing the avchd.

[Rii]

Hi aedipuss,

Cheers for the feedback.

I'll check this 'Cineform Neo Scene' out.

My PC is an OC'd 3GHz Q6600 with 4GB of DDR2 RAM. I should of added that in the OP.

[Rii]

Oh wow.

I downloaded the CineForm NeoScene Converter. (7 day trial, will def purchase.)

Works a treat. Had to fiddle around with the decoder filters in MPC, but I can now edit and export my newly converted .MTS files with all their former glory.

Thank you very much!

[guns1inger]

There is a possible free alternative in the Avid DNxHD codec, which comes as a quicktime codec that you can download and install. The only catch is that there is no application to do the encoding to DNxHD for you. However if you can load the mts file into Premiere you can export to DNxHD for further work. I use it happily in AfterFX and Vegas (not a Premiere user).

You can download the codec here : http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=263545

[petronas]

just a question.

See how the AVCHD video is not smooth on the pc/Premiere CS4.

Once you export that file after the editing is done, is the frame rate issue and choppy play hard coded into the eventual exported file?

[guns1inger]

It should not be. Editors don't save the video based on how they play back in the preview, but by processing each frame. This is why saving may take a lot less, or a lot more, time than the actual running time of the video.

However, if you export HD video and your computer isn't powerful enough to play HD video, you may still get choppiness. This is not the fault of the video, just the lack of grunt.

[Rii]

Hey guys.

I'm back. Thought I would revive this thread instead of making a new one.

So I'm using CineForm NeoScene and it works a treat.

I still however have a couple of hiccups.

1. When I now render my work in Premiere Pro CS4, it will squash all the video into about a 3rd the size of the Program Monitor.
2. What codec is best used when exporting from an AVI file that was originaly converted from an MTS format using CineForm NeoScene.

Cheers
Rii.

[guns1inger]

Sounds like a missing aspect ratio setting. Try using a player that lets you override the aspect ratio and try a couple to see what works.

There is no 'best' codec - only what is best for the intention you have for the video.

[edDV]

Hey guys.

I'm back. Thought I would revive this thread instead of making a new one.

So I'm using CineForm NeoScene and it works a treat.

I still however have a couple of hiccups.

1. When I now render my work in Premiere Pro CS4, it will squash all the video into about a 3rd the size of the Program Monitor.
2. What codec is best used when exporting from an AVI file that was originaly converted from an MTS format using CineForm NeoScene.

Cheers
Rii.

That depends on the purpose of the export.

Archive: I like to archive the camcorder original files (e.g. HDV or AVCHD), the Cineform import conversions and the Cineform timeline export. That way I can revive a project for a re-edit or can encode to a new format off the timeline export. I also save an MPeg2/AC3 (1080i) suitable for Blu-Ray authoring.

Blu-Ray: MPeg2, H.264 or VC-1 for authored Blu-Ray
You can also export to AVCHD for direct playback on most Blu-Ray players

Home Media Players: Match the export to the player specs.
Since camcorder material is usually native interlace, I favor MPeg2 (1080i/25)

Internet distribution: consider flash, h.264 or WMV-HD
Normally these get deinterlaced before encoding.

[Rii]

Cheers guys!

Sorry, I should of stated what my intentions where.

At the moment I am trying a plethora of codecs. My goal is to retain the smooth motion I get in the original source files. Everything I have tried so far (H.264/Blu-Ray, MOV etc) always turns it into a mess of blur. I'm not worried about file size at this stage so I guess to put it under a title, I would have to say purely for archiving.

[edDV]

Cheers guys!

Sorry, I should of stated what my intentions where.

At the moment I am trying a plethora of codecs. My goal is to retain the smooth motion I get in the original source files. Everything I have tried so far (H.264/Blu-Ray, MOV etc) always turns it into a mess of blur. I'm not worried about file size at this stage so I guess to put it under a title, I would have to say purely for archiving.

Seems like you are deinterlacing and doing it poorly.

First save to MPeg2 1440x1080i/25 or 1920x1080i matching your project settings. I hope your project is set to interlace. Make sure both your project setting and encoder settings are "top field first".

Next try interlace h.264 and/or AVCHD spec h.264 and compare.

Deinterlace should be done in AVIsynth. Search forums for "avisynth" and "deinterlace" for details. Only deinterlace for a specific purpose. Don't archive that way.

[Rii]

Thanks edDV.

I'm at work at the moment so I will try what you have suggested as soon as I get home.

Thanks again for everyone's input and help.

[Rii]

Hey.

I'm going to have to apologize. If it's not glaringly obvious, I'm a huge novice. I'm trying really hard to understand this stuff instead of being your typical point and shoot tourist who sets everything to automatic.

So I am going to lay it out flat with my intentions and what I am trying to end up with.

I am trying to preserve as MUCH quality as I can from the original source file. But I'm mainly going through this to try and preserve the fluid motion of my videos (for archival purposes). I film with an option turned off that is called "Digital Cinema". Digital Cinema is a feature (that when turned on) is supposed to simulate the feel of cinematic motion. I like it turned off because the motion is then ultra smooth, as if you are watching a movie on a 120Hz TV.

Ok.

So I record whatever, whether it's out in the park or inside, I record using the highest settings (HD: HA (17 Mbps / VBR) 1920 x 1080), (check out the camera I'm using in the first post).

1. I plug my camera in, and copy what clips I want (.mts files at this stage).
2. I then fire up CineForm NeoScene and select what clips I want to convert to .AVI
3. I convert using 'Maintain source format' as seen below along with the other options available to me:

Here is a a read out from MediaInfo on the source file once i run it through CineForm NeoScene:

General
Complete name : F:\00071-001.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 323 MiB
Duration : 24s 32ms
Overall bit rate : 113 Mbps

Video
Format : CineForm HD
Codec ID : CFHD
Codec ID/Info : CineForm 10-bit Visually Perfect HD (Wavelet)
Duration : 24s 0ms
Bit rate : 111 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.146
Stream size : 318 MiB (98%)

Audio
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Unsigned
Codec ID : 1
Codec ID/Hint : Microsoft
Duration : 24s 32ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Stream size : 4.40 MiB (1%)
Interleave, duration : 43 ms (1.06 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration : 2090 ms

And what is says about the same file before I run it through CineForm NeoScene (raw .mts)

General
ID : 1
Complete name : C:\Users\Rii\Desktop\00071.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 47.1 MiB
Duration : 23s 989ms
Overall bit rate : 16.5 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 18.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Duration : 23s 840ms
Bit rate : 15.4 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Resolution : 8 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.298
Stream size : 43.9 MiB (93%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 24s 0ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Surround: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -80ms
Stream size : 1.10 MiB (2%)

Text
ID : 4608 (0x1200)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : PGS
Duration : 23s 456ms
Video delay : -80ms

4. I take the converted AVI and import it into Premiere Pro CS4 with the following project settings:

5. I make my editing changes (simple cutting and scene changes only, nothing drastic)
6. I then go to export my 'movie' using the following settings:

(all these settings are default when choosing MPEG-2, apart from the min, target and max bitrate settings, i've changed those in attempt to preserve as much quality as possible.

Upon exporting, the video footage becomes very very ghosty (loses it's smoothness and has image trails - sorry, I don't know the correct terminology)

Are you guys able to use your worldly wisdom and point out where I am going wrong so I can preseve the smoothness and quality of my original source files when exporting?

I know I more than likley look like an idiot and will sound like an idiot with what settings I am using. I am really hoping I can get this right. You have all done an awesome job in helping me and I have learnt a buttload so far. Thank you so much for sparing your time to help out.

I am so sorry for the epic long post as well, I just wanted to be as clear and precise as I could be without making anything sound confusing (even though I probably have).

Thanks, VideoHelp.