Capture card for Laserdisc and VHS - Good card/quality

[edDV]

So, at the end of the day it seems easy, just to weave the PAL LD to 25p, and to keep the sound at 25 fps too.

PAL DVD wants video encoded as 25i so you don't need to weave the fields.

If you intend to encode to flash or h.264, etc., you would first weave the fields into 25p.

And if later I want to convert it to NTSC, I could follow some guides to convert from 25p to 29.97p...

To convert to NTSC you would first reprocess video and audio down to 23.976 fps. This would be accomplished by interpolating new 23.976p frames from the 25i source. This frame interpolation would be lossy.

[darkbluesky]

Nevertheless I think that a DVD can play 25p. If possible, I prefer to go progressive, although that could means more work. For the NTSC it seems more complicated. I'll see when I'll begin the NTSC version.

On the other hand, I have just tested the card in Win 7 x64. Conclusion: the card/drivers doesn't work in 64 bits OSs!

Although ASUS has drivers for it, and states it in the box and web page of the product.

Has someone manage to make it work in 64 bits OSs, please?

[jagabo]

Most caps from PAL laserdiscs will have progressive frames. At worst the capture device might capture the fields out of phase but that is easily converted back to progressive frames. The frames stored on DVD always have two fields woven together. The only questions are whether those two fields are from the same picture or two temporally different pictures, and whether they are encoded in interlaced mode or not (this is a matter of how the frames are handled internally by the encoder).

[darkbluesky]

jagabo: thanks for the explanation, I understand (I guess...).

About the driver:

I have removed the Asus driver and installed the ATI catalyst 9.12 (which according ati supports the Theater 750). To my surprise the proc amp is available! but the driver still doesn't work in x64

EDIT: With the 9.12 catalyst, the proc amp works in Vista x64 but NOT in Win7 x32... I don't understand anything

[danno78]

ati%20versus%20canopus.rar

Is that ATI capture for real?

I ask because the 6.75MHz frequency grating is almost too good.

Cheers,
David.

Is not a fake, is real. I don`t think the Theatre 650/Theatre 750 is the best ADC in the world but, from my tests is the best ADC found on a PC tv tuner card.

[dphirschler]

Converting your PAL to NTSC would only involve interpolating fields if it was PAL 25i video. If it were progressive film on that laserdisc, then you would do as you normally would, weave the fields back into progressive frames (if it needed that treatment). For the NTSC conversion you would only have the additional steps of resizing to NTSC (720x480) and then slowing down the video frame rate and audio to 23.976.


Darryl

[darkbluesky]

Try VirtualDub's Deinterlace filter with the Yadif or ELA settings.

Regarding video proc amp settings: try using GraphStudio. Insert the video capture device, right click on it and select Properities. See if you can adjust the proc amp settings there.

I have test GraphStudio and the proc amp settings are still unavailable...

I have reinstalled from scratch windows 7 x64, install the drivers and it does not see the card (tested the last ones in asus page and also the ones from CD).

Tested Ati 9.12 drivers, and I can capture but not use the Proc Amp settings... Strange enough, when capturing like that in VirtualDub the capture size (as shown in virtualdub) is streched to the virtualdub window size (even if it is maximized), but when using the Asus drivers (only had success in Windows 7 32 bits) the capture screen is fixed to the capture size (720x576, for example)... Really I can't afford to reduce the 8 Gb down to 2 Gb, to capture in 32 bits OS. I would like to use the asus drivers and in windows 7 x64, just AS ASUS PROMISED.

[danno78]

Really I can't afford to reduce the 8 Gb down to 2 Gb, to capture in 32 bits OS. I would like to use the asus drivers and in windows 7 x64, just AS ASUS PROMISED.

32bit OS limit the size memory to 4 Gb.
Try the ATI drivers. Asus drivers are ATI versions with the name changed and some other additions (asus remote control). With ATI drivers you lose the remote control.
http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/Pages/tvtuner_win7.aspx?type=2.5.1&produ...6&lang=English

[darkbluesky]

Really I can't afford to reduce the 8 Gb down to 2 Gb, to capture in 32 bits OS. I would like to use the asus drivers and in windows 7 x64, just AS ASUS PROMISED.

32bit OS limit the size memory to 4 Gb.
Try the ATI drivers. Asus drivers are ATI versions with the name changed and some other additions (asus remote control). With ATI drivers you lose the remote control.
http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/Pages/tvtuner_win7.aspx?type=2.5.1&produ...6&lang=English

Thanks for your answer.

In my case, the limit is 2 Gb (I have 2 GB spent in GPU memory already...). So I can't afford to lose 6 Gb of RAM, specially doing video processing.

I have tried the ATI ones, as described. Only that additionally to the remote, the TotalMedia, Asus splendid, Asus GadgeTV, does not see the card neither... Even Windows Media Center, which do see the card, is not able to use it correctly.

Of course I want to use the capture feature, but even it does not work fully (proc amp) with the Ati drivers 9.12, and moreover, I have bought all the card, with the advertised features/support/compatibility.

The link you gave is the one I tested with the described results. Thanks anyway, though. At least, people here try to help. That is much more than Asus does (I wrote to them several days ago).

[RANT ON]
Sincerely, after almost 20 years of pc experience I am really tired of the impunity of hardware shops and manufacturers, which can advertise almost ANY feature and if later it does not work, or only works in 20% of cases, they absolve themselves with some cheap excuses, hyper long delays, etc... and let you alone with the problem, or in the best case at mercy of the unselfish kindness of other people.
[RANT OFF]

[danno78]

Why are you stubborn to use only system that does not work? You can use XP 32bit only for capture and processing to do on Windows 7 64bit. I use two operating systems installed on different disks, one is for general use and the other is for video editing.
When I get time I'll try at a friend Windows 7.

[darkbluesky]

Well,

I have been reinstalling my PC, so I was busy some time. Still I have not finished.

In fact I wanted to avoid that solution, because I have already 4 OS (each specialized for some tasks only) in my rig, and I did not want to add a 5th one. And the other reason, is what I stated in some previous posts; it must work; they sell it for that.

As Asus is addressing my problem to the RD dept and see "if they find something", I can't keep up my hopes that Asus will help me in any way.

So at the end I am forced to follow your advice, thus I am reinstalling all my OSs in order to rearrange my work plan and to be able to use the card. All of that, most likely, thanks to the wonderful and responsible Asustek company...

When I'll finish it and take the first samples I will post here.

If you could test it in some 64 bits OS (win7, Vista) I will appreciate the results, too, of ocurse. After all maybe it is some other hardware I have...but frankly, I doubt it.

[sphinx99]

For what little it's worth, I went through the same experiences with the Theater 550 about 3 or 4 years ago. Same story, different card.

I'd be interested to know whether the card works in Virtual XP mode under Windows 7. I'm guessing not, but just curious. Meanwhile, I guess I'll be installing another OS as well...

[jagabo]

I'd be interested to know whether the card works in Virtual XP mode under Windows 7.

Almost certainly not. XP mode is meant for business applications, not hardware.

[victoriabears]

Bit of a novice aspect of this question, as I have not really explored computer capture as my VHS recordings are top notch, so am lucky as dvd recorders do most of what I want, but I do have some dodgy vhs that will require more work.

I have a ads pyro link that enables a pc to capture in dv via firewire, how does that stack up compared to the other choices mentioned, if I wanted to capture to lossless avi then edit, enhance and encode.

I am still looking at about 300 vhs tapes left to convert to dvd and am about to re-embark with a Hauppauge pvr 350 and Canopus Acedvio trials.

[danno78]

ACEDVio should perform like any other box from Canopus. See a light review:
http://translate.google.ro/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashcam.de%2Fartikel%2FTest%2...n&hl=&ie=UTF-8

[sphinx99]

I've been using the 750 for about a week now (USB dongle) and it's working well in Windows 7 x64. Uncompressed Lagarith compression. Avoid turning on the card noise reduction from VirtualDub, it works horribly. Neat Video is doing a much better job.

[vhelp]

Bit of a novice aspect of this question, as I have not really explored computer capture as my VHS recordings are top notch, so am lucky as dvd recorders do most of what I want, but I do have some dodgy vhs that will require more work.

I have a ads pyro link that enables a pc to capture in dv via firewire, how does that stack up compared to the other choices mentioned, if I wanted to capture to lossless avi then edit, enhance and encode.

I am still looking at about 300 vhs tapes left to convert to dvd and am about to re-embark with a Hauppauge pvr 350 and Canopus Acedvio trials.

I'll try and be brief, cause my schedule is limited.

@ victoriabears, for vhs archival purposes, I would suggest lossless or uncompression in your avi captures. I don't like dvd records in the chain of these events unless time, experience, and quality are not issues.

For restoration or improved quality from vhs sources it is best to utilize uncompression in the capture so that every (pixel) detail is maintained as close as possible. A dvd recorder utilizes too low a bitrate for these purposes. Even if you could go 9MBit/s using "CBR" the results would still spill out mpeg artifacts. Uncompress is the way to go in these cases. Couple that with a good near-lossless encode and you have the best archive ready for its new playback chore.

Same for laserdisc, you need to capture it uncompressed, using the best composite equiped chipset of the capture card, and capture the from the composite connectors, NTSC. PAL is more or less confusing because they have the extra piece you (scart) in their and I'm not too sure how it *might* influence the results from this source medium, and for this type of work you need a good capture card with a good comb filter. I was lucky to get hauppauges latest hvr-2250 to work for uncompressed avi. At first it was believed to be hardware-mpeg2 only because avi functions are not mentioned in the specs. But that changed when I found out through trial and error that the card does support uncompressed avi, and I've been using that feature of the card and specifically for that purpose on my directv, though I'm still in the testing phases with this card. On the hvr-2250 you can turn on/off the 3D Comb at the avi level. But I'm still testing the card out. There's a lot of good things (quality) that can come out of laserdisc if used with the right analog capture card. Testing is very important in the initial stages, and having test guages and things helps.

It is always best to test your rig (capture card, vcr, dvd player, etc) through good clean standard test patterns, ones that you can measure for certain level of quality that the cards chipset is desiged for. I myself am looking for certain test patterns use against my capture cards to measure their performances, but unfortunately, to date, I have not been able to come up with any. The snell & wilcox I have in mind is not on the the snell & wilcox website, actaully, none of their test patterns are. I've been there many times and can't find them. I think they were taken down a long time ago and people don't know it, they just post old links. Anyway, the last one I did find (on this site) was not clean, it had artifacts and other things, especially in the criticle areas. I believe that many people have been using these same ones in their tests and posting them here and at other websites. Anyway. I am still on the hunt for the untouched patterns

well, i'm on my way out, got things to do

-vhelp 5327

[2Bdecided]

A Snell and Wilcox testcard is on the Digital Video Essentials DVD from Joe Kane productions. There are both PAL and NTSC versions - buy whichever one you need.

There may be other sources of it.

Cheers,
David.

[jagabo]

JPEG but pretty clean: http://www.cinedrome.ch/hometheater/testpatterns/zoneplate.html
Docs: http://www.snellgroup.com/documents/engineering-guides/testchart.pdf

I wounldn't rely on these for levels or other critical settings.

[danno78]

Avoid turning on the card noise reduction from VirtualDub, it works horribly. Neat Video is doing a much better job.

Theatre 750 lack hardware noise reduction. What you see is setting available for compressed mpeg output for Theatre 550/650. Are there because Theatre 550/650/750 share the same driver. Even on Theatre 550/650 (these have hardware noise reduction on mpeg output) have no effect on uncompressed output. Nothing will change on picture if you play with them.

[sphinx99]

Danno, I just saw your note. I was referring to the NR setting in the Video menu, not what's available through the filter setting. (I've confirmed that setting has no impact; the one in the Virtualdub Video menu however has a large negative impact.)

The dongle is working quite well. Being ATI you're stuck with 720x480 so if the aspect ratio isn't right you have to encode to a format that lets you embed the proper DAR. That aside, the quality is solid and versus the 550 series, at least they've stopped advertising all the features ATI wasn't going to deliver on. As an aside, the fact that the 750 USB adapter is so small means that it plus a decent laptop make for an exceptionally handy mobile capture platform for SD.

[RidgeShark]

Can anyone confirm for me whether the Diamond ATI Theater HD 750 USB has a built-in 3D comb filter? I've been reading conflicting information on this and I can't find anything in the online documentation.

[jagabo]

Can anyone confirm for me whether the Diamond ATI Theater HD 750 USB has a built-in 3D comb filter?

According to danno78 it does:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313735-Capture-card-for-Laserdisc-and-VHS-Good-card...=1#post1940519

[smengy]

OK, I have a hd 650 tv wonder. Am I going to get any better image capture quality from a 750?

I use Virtualdub and Lagarith for lossless captures of laserdiscs and VHS.

I have a small form factor motherboard, and the pig vid card is double decker and covers over a pci slot,
so this will let me use my Auzentech card( which is in the only other available slot) to capture audio!!
It has one pcie 1x slot open.

I saw some site and it shows that the 12 bit processor is sharper
http://www.asus.de/Multimedia/TV_Tuner/My_CinemaES2750PTFMAVRC/
This being a ASUS brand 750.

Also it says it, pcie version, helps speed up encoding, I know my ASUS hd5670 has this abilityto help.
So will this speed it up too?

Thanks! Old thread, but only one to talk about 750 idiotsyncrasies!!

[jagabo]

The 650 is already overly sharp at it's default settings. Sharper will just create more artifacts. 12 bit processing is overkill for ~6 bit VHS sources. You'll just get more accurate noise. PCIe will have lower overhead than USB. But you can only capture in real time. So it doesn't matter (unless you have a very low power CPU).

[smengy]

All right that makes sense. Really I guess I am just wondering about the Laserdisc captures, if they
will be any better.

I guess I am leaning towards buying it because at the moment I can't use the audio card and
video capture at same time. Having the Auzentech capturing the Laserdisc audio would be heaven!!

As for the PCIe slot, I am not worried about the capturing, it is in the post processing, encoding,
I am wondering about the hd750 helping out the encoding speed. I use x264vfw in virtualdub, and
9 or max umf processing. The HD5670 did speed up the h264 encoding of the video by 2 frames per
second, not earth shattering, but definetly did speed it up. ATI says it (the750)speeds it up even more,
anyone have real world experience as to how much?

Oh and yes you are right, the sharpness is quite the kicker. I am remastering some Koi Koi 7 DVD's from
Japan, and you are right. Post processing in virtualdub, of I add too much sharpness the curved lines that
lie horizontally break apart

-
--
-----
instead of appearing smooth. I backed off the sharpness and the lines are barely visible in some frames,
and have dissapeared totally in others.

When I use my own captures from laserdisc, I have used full sharpness and not suffered this. Probably because of
all the deblocking filters, smart smooth etc I used, resharpening after this is not as bad, as the filters blur quite a bit.

i mostly do animes Just won a beauty set of Early Lupin Laserdiscs, the movies that have not really gotten
good releases in America, and I just cant wait to start encoding them!!! The American DVD's are really sub par
encoding in mpeg2. I almost think most Blurays of old material are just Laserdiscs encoded in H264.