Capture card for Laserdisc and VHS - Good card/quality

[darkbluesky]

Thank you very much for confirmation.

Then I think there is a last -and silly- question, but still I would like to ask it:

Even if the BM Intensity Pro is 8 bit (I think I have read that) and the TV2000XP is 10 bit + "adaptative comb filter", should I expect better quality from the Intensity? or from the TV2000XP?

I think I can imagine the answer, but still I would like to hear your opinion/explanation. I would feel better/safer.

Thank you.

[danno78]

The asus sounds good (specially looking to its own page http://www.asus.de/product.aspx?P_ID=8os7CujiW57042Tt&templete=2, but that's marketing, not real comparison)

Images posted by me shows that it is not just marketing.

But, does the Asus use the same chipset than the ATI Theater 650? That is the question

ATI Theatre HD 750 = ATI Theatre 650 without hardware mpeg2 encoder. Actually the image come from Asus card.

On the other hand I have read here that "people" don't like too much / consider the ATI cards as a good for capture. But I really don't know...

These boards are not recommended for novices.
For beginners Canopus is the best solution. Light compression, decent quality, no installation and no configuration problems.

according to the official page the asus don't capture in MPEG2/4, neither in software...but I couldn't swear it

The original software (Arcsoft Total Media) can only software mpeg2 compression. There are no other options. With VirtualDub you can do lossless or uncompressed capture. The only issue is dropped frames when I tick "Enable audio playback". So, I disable this option during capture. It is possible that this shortcoming belong to my computer.

Trustedreviews says of that card "When recording/transcoding, the ES2-750 can cope with an unusual amount of formats including MPEG2/4, WMV, AVI, DivX and even H.264, which nicely covers practically all the options you might want."

Not true. These features belong ATI video cards and the quality is low. Have no connection with Theatre 650/750.

If you want a best solution and you have the money for her follow edDV's advice (Xena).
If you want more with low budget, take a card with 3D comb filter.
If you are a beginner and don`t want to complicate things, take Canopus.

[lordsmurf]

Even if the BM Intensity Pro is 8 bit (I think I have read that) and the TV2000XP is 10 bit + "adaptative comb filter", should I expect better quality from the Intensity? or from the TV2000XP?

Stop measuring bits.

[edDV]

Even if the BM Intensity Pro is 8 bit (I think I have read that) and the TV2000XP is 10 bit + "adaptative comb filter", should I expect better quality from the Intensity? or from the TV2000XP?

Stop measuring bits.

"Bits" are good from a quality source but not necessarily for VHS, noise issues dominate. I suspect the same is true for 3D comb filters. They were designed for TV sets with digital broadcast source. They don't publish data for VHS source.

[lordsmurf]

A few posts back I compared bits to megapixels, but that didn't seem to work.

So let me try this again....

Some many years ago, I had a friend who refused to date a woman unless she had a DD cup size or larger. She could be the meanest, dumbest woman around, with a horrible attitude, and a face that looked like hamburger. But to him, all that mattered was that cup size. Intelligent beautiful friendly C-cup women weren't good enough. (He's divorced now, no surprise.)

Bits, megapixels or cup size -- no good will come from measuring a single dimension, and ignoring everything else.

[darkbluesky]

danno78: thank you very much for your info about the asus (Ati 750), that confirms the asus uncompressed capture capability. Thanks.

edDV: Tx. So, imo, for the LD captures it should be good, theoretically. And for the VHS, well, I know I have to add a TBC anyway, so maybe after the TBC it will be then, somewhat useful too (just guessing). Tx for the info.

lordsmurf: Thanks. Poor friend of you... I had understood it anyway, but I looked for confirmation (foreseeable, I guess...) about composite quality comparison between the Intensity and a Winfast, or now, and ATI 650/750 uncompressed capture. Of course I agree, it is a mistake to use partial numbers to judge the whole thing.

Anyway I guess I can assume that the BM will give somewhat better composite capture quality than the Ati 750, but except if that difference would be astonishing, the fact that the BM supports only/mainly Adobe software (in windows) and the composite VHS "difficulties", make me reluctant to spend ~190 euros on that card. Specially if the ~70 € ATI/ASUS 750 would not be so far behind it (?), composite quality wise... After all the BM has hdmi, HD capturing and components capture...which the ati/asus lacks. That could explain more the higher price, than an exceptional composite capture quality. But who knows?

I feel I am getting closer to buy the Asus ES2-750...

[danno78]

I don`t think that BM offers better quality over ATI. BM was designed for high definition. Capture the standard resolution is a bonus and not the main goal. So, don`t buy BM just to capture from VHS or LD source. You don`t buy a truck to go to work, you buy a car. Show me a picture of the BM board to tell you what are features of the chip responsible for SD conversion.
If you buy ATI then follow these tips:
Do not install the drivers from the CD because they are old. Download the latest version of the ATI site
Uses the latest stable version of VirtualDub
Uses lossless compression with HuffYUV or Lagarith. HuffYUV requires ~ 27 GB per hour (Pal). Lagarith compress better but needs more CPU power. Also has support for multicore CPU.

At Video tick:
Overlay,
Video Source> composite Capture Pin > 25 Frame rate, Color space YUY2, Output size 720x576
Capture Filter: Filters properties > you can raise the volume up to 255, Video decoder > Pal
Crossbar: Video Composite In
Output > Audio Decoder Out = audio line in <Input, Also tick Related Link Stream
Compresion > Huffyuv or Lagarith

At Audio tick these:
Enable audio capture
Volume meter
Don`t tick Enable Audio Playback during capture because you get dropped frames
Capture Device
Source Audio> Audio Line

At Capture tick only > Timing > Do not resync between audio and video stream
Automatically disable resync when integrated audio / video capture is detected

From the File> Set Capture File

Also from Task Manager Set High priority for VirtualDub, Antivirus should be off during capture

[darkbluesky]

Thank you for your answer and tips!

Here is the only "detailed" photo I found (it is not very good, though. There are few chips unreadable...) http://www.blackmagic-design.com/downloads/brochures-usd/IntensityPro.pdf

I think I am going to get the Asus ES2-750, though.

EDIT: this photo is bigger http://www34.atwiki.jp/intensity?cmd=upload&act=open&pageid=17&file=pro.jpg but without some work on photoshop or similar I think it will be hard to see something more...

[jagabo]

I think I am going to get the Asus ES2-750, though.

Please let us know how it works out.

[SHS]

ATI Theatre HD 750 = ATI Theatre 650 without hardware mpeg2 encoder. Actually the image come from Asus card.

To me Asus card look more like ATI Theatre HD 600 not the 650
Far I can tell it look like ATI drop the RealTime Hardware Encoder in Fav of moving to ATI Avivo Video Converter to utilize the GPU transcode as in accelerate advanced hardware encoding for there 4xxx/5xxx series video card.

[danno78]

To me Asus card look more like ATI Theatre HD 600 not the 650

Not true.

The Theater HD 600 = Theatre 650 without 3D comb filter and hardware mpeg2 encoder. Theatre HD 600 has 2D adaptive comb filter with 5 lines scaning. So, no 3D filter.

Theatre HD 750 has 3D comb filter just like Theatre 650. The hardware mpeg2 encoder is missing.
Only 3D comb filters can do perfect separation (on static and low motion scenes) between luminace signal over the chrominace signal. A adaptive 2D comb filter can`t do that. Theater 550, Theater 650 and Theater 750 HD can perfectly separate without any artefacts (on static an low motion scenes) the chrominance from from luminance signal. The image posted by me on the first page shows this clearly.

Far I can tell it look like ATI drop the RealTime Hardware Encoder in Fav of moving to ATI Avivo Video Converter to utilize the GPU transcode as in accelerate advanced hardware encoding for there 4xxx/5xxx series video card.

True.

EDIT: this photo is bigger http://www34.atwiki.jp/intensity?cmd=upload&act=open&pageid=17&file=pro.jpg but without some work on photoshop or similar I think it will be hard to see something more...

From what I see, I can`t recognize any chip that do SD conversion. Without know exactly the name it is difficult to forecast performance. Intensity Pro can be verry good or just as good as a 30 eur tv tuner.

[SHS]

The Theater HD 600 = Theatre 650 without 3D comb filter and hardware mpeg2 encoder. Theatre HD 600 has 2D adaptive comb filter with 5 lines scaning. So, no 3D filter.

Just becuases HD 600 has no 3D Comb Filter, Noise Reduction nor Edge Enhancement it was add in later now know as HD 750

[jagabo]

The Theater HD 600 = Theatre 650 without 3D comb filter and hardware mpeg2 encoder. Theatre HD 600 has 2D adaptive comb filter with 5 lines scaning. So, no 3D filter.

Just becuases HD 600 has no 3D Comb Filter, Noise Reduction nor Edge Enhancement it was add in later now know as HD 750

Does that mean it was removed from the capture hardware and moved to the software (or display hardware)?

[SHS]

The Theater HD 600 = Theatre 650 without 3D comb filter and hardware mpeg2 encoder. Theatre HD 600 has 2D adaptive comb filter with 5 lines scaning. So, no 3D filter.

Just becuases HD 600 has no 3D Comb Filter, Noise Reduction nor Edge Enhancement it was add in later now know as HD 750

Does that mean it was removed from the capture hardware and moved to the software (or display hardware)?

If what your asking jagabo if they had remove hardware mpeg2 encoder then yes it would be software but that not the case here.
What they did was add more functions to the HD 600 chip and made the die size much smaller then called a HD 750 being the 600 was all ready software encoder unlike the 550/650 which had a hardware mpeg2 encoder and just remove the hardware encoder by it self would have been to much work you may as well just redesign a new chip from ground up.
Now that Asus My Cinema-ES2-750 to me this dosen't look like a HD 750 for starter the chip is little to big and it has a standard tuner and the card dosen't have world wide support if look at the Diamond ATI Theater HD 750 USB and as far I know of the 750 only in forum facter USB and MiniPCIe I haven't seem any protype 1x PCIe from ATi.

[danno78]

They have not invented anything new. They used what they had already. The result was a chip that retains most of the Theatre 650 features and added a demodulator for digital reception (HDTV). Theater 600 and 650 require an external demodulator for digital reception (ATSC, ClearQAM, DVB-T). As you can see (My Cinema 750 picture) Theater 750 is the only chip that does all.
If you compare Theatre HD 750 with Theatre 600 and Theatre 650 will see that the Theater HD 750 is more like Theatre 650 (from analog signal processing point of view).
The target market for My Cinema750 is Europe (Pal countries), so they don`t mention anything about NTSC. For US, Asus has others products. It will be not sold in the US.
About the size, the ruller show 12x12 mm.

[darkbluesky]

Hey, thanks for your answers and sorry for the silence, I was on trip.

I think more like danno, and still the 750 seems a pretty good card for analog considering the price, and if you, like me, want to stay far away from mpeg hardware encoding/capture... Well, now the problem is to find that card.

Someone was faster than me, and bought the only one I have found. I keep searching.

Of course I'll post back when I will have some tests to show, if you want.

[darkbluesky]

Just to update: I have just found the card and bought it , it will arrive with the new year (I hope!). I will post then during the first weeks of the new year (I hope too).

By the way, I want to thank sincerely everybody that has contributed to this topic for their help and real patience and kindness. I think that this is one of the brief and most informative topics about that matter I have read around recently, from a practical point of view, at least.

And by the way, I want to use this post too, to wish you a merry Christmas and happy new year 2010!

[darkbluesky]

Hello

Finally I have received my Asus ES2-750. I am happy with it but I would like to discuss here some aspects that disconcerts me.

The main defect of this card is that it is virtually lacking of any guide, driver configuration guide or even a guide/manual for the supplied software. The only guide is limited to how to install a PCI card in a chassis, and how to install software. And a brief PDF (2 pages) about which cable is connected to which port (even any other explanation about the purpose of each one is missing, too). Period.

I installed the card and then installed the drivers first in Vista x64. Strange enough the driver's installation went ok, but the card is not recognised in Vista x64, even with last drivers dowloaded from Asus site. Probably my Vista installation is somewhat corrupted as the card box states that it is Vista ready, and drivers for Vista x64 are available too in the web site.

Anyway I then installed it in Windows 7 32 bits without any problem, and it works. I'll test later in Windows 7 x64. From here onwards, except indicated, all info about the card will refer to the Win7 32 bits installation.

Well, TV and radio works.

And about the important part, the video capture, I branched a LD (PAL) via composite and I tested with VirtualDubMod and it doesn't see the new capture device (?), it only sees some "windows capture device" (which seems to be a standard virtual device, or something like that because it only shows a green screen instead of incoming video, and that's all).

Happily VirtualDub sees the new capture device and allows me to capture from the Asus in uncompressed AVI. Following the advice of danno78 (thanks a lot for it!), I checked the driver configuration going to Video > Capture filter... But here I find an strange (?) thing.

The capture filter menu allows me to configure the driver and if I go to the "Filter properties" tab it shows the noise reduction options, the Volume (is it the sound volume?), and the Comb filter configuration.




The problem is that if, for example, I change the volume or noise reduction configuration and click OK ("Aceptar"), menu closes, and then when I come back to it the new configuration stays as I selected it, that's normal. But not for the Comb filter. i.e. if I change the 2D to 3D comb filter, it doesn't stay in 3D, when I re-enter Capture filter, the comb filter config has returned to 2D.

At this point, I don't know what to think. Maybe it doesn't allow me to change to 3D comb filter (!!?), or maybe both the 2D and 3D comb filters are active all the time, and that window allows me to select the threshold type and value for each type of comb filter? Could please someone (danno78?) explain me how it works, if possible?

Another thing that bugs me, is what is it supposed to do each one of the "threshold" values shown, which one to select, and with which values? It seems quite silly to sell a product and don't explain even a single line of each configuration value, imo. Don't get me wrong, I like that they allow me to configure these kind of values and detail, only that a little description is needed.

Another thing that makes me a bit angry (until confirmation in one or other sense) is the "Video processing" tab. It is a typical one in which normally is possible to adjust brightness, contrast, saturation, tint, sharpness, gain, etc and it is completely disabled! (even the one labelled "Brillo" (Brightness) is not adjustable). Even my old BT878 allowed me to adjust it.



If Asus/Ati has put that there should be for some reason. How and when can that be activated. Maybe for transferring LD will not be important, but in some cases that could be very useful (even needed)...

Could someone enlight me a little about that too, please?

BTW, I configured it as PAL_B as I was playing a spanish PAL LD, I guess it is correct. And, of course selected composite as input, (Crossbar option under Video tab).

I'll post some captures later, when I solve these problems and I'll have a bit of free time.

Thank you very much for any help/advice.

[danno78]

Hello

Finally I have received my Asus ES2-750. I am happy with it but I would like to discuss here some aspects that disconcerts me.

The main defect of this card is that it is virtually lacking of any guide, driver configuration guide or even a guide/manual for the supplied software. The only guide is limited to how to install a PCI card in a chassis, and how to install software. And a brief PDF (2 pages) about which cable is connected to which port (even any other explanation about the purpose of each one is missing, too). Period.

The card is sold as PVR solution. For this porpose documentations is ok.

And about the important part, the video capture, I branched a LD (PAL) via composite and I tested with VirtualDubMod and it doesn't see the new capture device (?), it only sees some "windows capture device" (which seems to be a standard virtual device, or something like that because it only shows a green screen instead of incoming video, and that's all).

VirtualDubMod is old software, the card is new capture device.

The problem is that if, for example, I change the volume or noise reduction configuration and click OK ("Aceptar"), menu closes, and then when I come back to it the new configuration stays as I selected it, that's normal. But not for the Comb filter. i.e. if I change the 2D to 3D comb filter, it doesn't stay in 3D, when I re-enter Capture filter, the comb filter config has returned to 2D.

At this point, I don't know what to think. Maybe it doesn't allow me to change to 3D comb filter (!!?), or maybe both the 2D and 3D comb filters are active all the time, and that window allows me to select the threshold type and value for each type of comb filter? Could please someone (danno78?) explain me how it works, if possible?

3D mode is used on static scenes and 2D mode is used on complex motion scenes. In this way 3D comb type filters works. The switching between 3D and 2D is based on motion detection altgorithm.

Another thing that bugs me, is what is it supposed to do each one of the "threshold" values shown, which one to select, and with which values? It seems quite silly to sell a product and don't explain even a single line of each configuration value, imo. Don't get me wrong, I like that they allow me to configure these kind of values and detail, only that a little description is needed.

No description are available. ATI/AMD fault. However noise reduction settings are only for mpeg output from Theatre 550/Theatre 650 chip. Uncompressed output (the only output for Theatre HD750) is free from any noise reduction form or is light, at least from my experience with this cards.

Another thing that makes me a bit angry (until confirmation in one or other sense) is the "Video processing" tab. It is a typical one in which normally is possible to adjust brightness, contrast, saturation, tint, sharpness, gain, etc and it is completely disabled! (even the one labelled "Brillo" (Brightness) is not adjustable). Even my old BT878 allowed me to adjust it.



If Asus/Ati has put that there should be for some reason. How and when can that be activated. Maybe for transferring LD will not be important, but in some cases that could be very useful (even needed)...

On Windows XP the settings are available.

[darkbluesky]

Thank you very much for your answers. So the comb filter is activated automatically (meanwhile I have found also this doc that is coherent with your description) as you say and described here http://ati.amd.com/products/theater650pro/ATITheater650WhitePaper.pdf

About noise reduction, it is described in the doc linked as a pre-process (although is suggested as previous step for encoding, so you could have reason), anyway I'll test with some "noisy" tapes/VCR.

BTW, what do you know about the de-interlace ability of this card/chipset? I don't see it documented in any place. Maybe it is not good, but anyway, is it possible to activate?

About the Proc Amp settings, that really bugs me ... I'll test in Win7 x64 but I don't think it will help. How can it be?!

[danno78]

BTW, what do you know about the de-interlace ability of this card/chipset? I don't see it documented in any place. Maybe it is not good, but anyway, is it possible to activate?

In these days deinterlace is a video card job. When you pair the card with a ATI video card (Unified Video Decoder being a part of ATI Avivo HD technology), then you have progresive signal on monitor.
Anyway the uncompressed output grab with VirtualDub will be interlace content.

[darkbluesky]

In these days deinterlace is a video card job. When you pair the card with a ATI video card (Unified Video Decoder being a part of ATI Avivo HD technology), then you have progresive signal on monitor.

And I guess that this progresive signal will be after processing (maybe even after encoding), but not the original capture. I guess the only way to use that de-interlace would be to capture from screen (gpu output) the progressive signal, but I suspect the effort is not worth the result. Maybe a VirtualDub deinterlace filter will give same quality deinterlace with less hassle ... (?)

[jagabo]

Try VirtualDub's Deinterlace filter with the Yadif or ELA settings.

Regarding video proc amp settings: try using GraphStudio. Insert the video capture device, right click on it and select Properities. See if you can adjust the proc amp settings there.

[2Bdecided]

ati%20versus%20canopus.rar

Is that ATI capture for real?

I ask because the 6.75MHz frequency grating is almost too good.

Cheers,
David.

[edDV]

If the source is NTSC Laserdisc, you should not be deinterlacing. Most Laserdisc is telecine film source. You should be inversing the telecine to 23.976 fps progressive.

If the source is PAL Laserdisc, you should be weaving the fields to progressive 25fps.

[darkbluesky]

If the source is Laserdisc, you should not be deinterlacing. Most Laserdisc is telecine film source. You should be inversing the telecine to 23.976 progressive.

Interesting, that means that they are already 24 fps progressive played at 25 fps speed (for PAL)? What do you mean for inversing the telecine? Sorry if it is obvious, but for me "telecine" is the process to transfer a film copy (35 mm, 16, 8, etc) to another support (digital, magnetic tape, etc). I will look for more info

[edDV]

If the source is Laserdisc, you should not be deinterlacing. Most Laserdisc is telecine film source. You should be inversing the telecine to 23.976 progressive.

Interesting, that means that they are 24 fps played at 25 fps (for PAL)? What do you mean for inversing the telecine? Sorry if it is obvious, but for me "telecine" is the process to transfer a film copy (35 mm, 16, 8, etc) to another suppert (digital, etc)

PAL Laserdisc plays 24p film accelerated 4% to 25 fps and encoded to fields (PAL 25i aka 50i). This can be encoded as is to a PAL DVD. If you want progressive for web distribution, you would weave the fields into 25p.

While accelerating the video, most Laserdisc production would also re-process the audio to 25 fps rate to avoid increase in pitch. Therefore you should leave it 25 fps.

[darkbluesky]

Thanks for answer, so I can reconstruct the original progressive frame from it. Wonderful.

About the audio, I can slow it to the original speed without changing the pitch. Some sound editors can do that, but...I wonder if it is possible for a DVD to play at 24 fps. If not, then I'll have to keep it at 25 fps, as you say.

[edDV]

Thanks for answer, so I can reconstruct the original progressive frame from it. Wonderful.

About the audio, I can slow it to the original speed without changing the pitch. Some sound editors can do that, but...I wonder if it is possible for a DVD to play at 24 fps. If not, then I'll have to keep it at 25 fps, as you say.

Reprocessing video and audio to 24 fps likely would be destructive. Better to leave it 25p unless you are trying to convert to NTSC.

When they transferred 24p film to 25 fps video, they simply ran the projector 4% fast.

[darkbluesky]

So, at the end of the day it seems easy, just to weave the PAL LD to 25p, and to keep the sound at 25 fps too.

And if later I want to convert it to NTSC, I could follow some guides to convert from 25p to 29.97p...