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  1. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Canopus DV boxes convert video input to DV. They do not act as full-frame timebase correctors. Video with timebase errors will not be magically fixed by instead using a DV box. It's no different than suggesting an oil change will fix a flat tire.

    For example, B&H has been telling customers in the past that TBC's are not needed, and that a Canopus ADVC box replaces the need for a TBC. However, anybody with analog video knowledge knows this is incorrect.

    When you know you need a standalone full-frame TBC -- like the AVT-8710 -- don't be persuaded into buying something else.

    Be a smart video shopper!

    A detailed overview of TBCs can be found in post #3 at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/alternative-avt-8710-1853.html
    Last edited by Baldrick; 28th Jan 2010 at 15:28. Reason: This post was edited, as a good will gesture towards B&H, as they showed interest in addressing this issue.
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  2. 100% true (obviously)...but I have a canopus box and can advocate it gives great video quality. But you do need a TBC. The one I have is not exactly fixing all of my problems however...I have a ctb 100. I'm surfing around the forum for what the next step up is...
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  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Good VCR is also important.
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  4. Don't forget that above and beyond anything else B&H Photos primary goal is to sell things and make a profit. I have had close dealings with them for many years, regardless as to how enticing their pricing is their chief goal is to make money, and they do make money.
    They probably sell more and make more on the Canopus boxes than on TBCs so that is what they push, because that is the sale they want to make.

    --dES
    "You can observe a lot by watching." - Yogi Bera
    http://www.areturningadultstudent.com
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  5. Originally Posted by Des
    Don't forget that above and beyond anything else B&H Photos primary goal is to sell things and make a profit.
    Yes, that make it ok for them to blatantly lie. I have this bridge I'm looking to sell for a really good price. Interested?
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  6. Member t0nee1's Avatar
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    Yes, that make it ok for them to blatantly lie. I have this bridge I'm looking to sell for a really good price. Interested?
    Politicians do it every day (see current U.S pres), and most people buy into it..Now, about the bridge!..
    "I typed the word Google into Google. Guess what came up? Everything."

    "What we've got here is failure to communicate"
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  7. Originally Posted by jagabo
    Originally Posted by Des
    Don't forget that above and beyond anything else B&H Photos primary goal is to sell things and make a profit.
    Yes, that make it ok for them to blatantly lie. I have this bridge I'm looking to sell for a really good price. Interested?
    I'm not excusing that they lie. I'm not condoning it either. What I mean to say is "Buyer Beware."

    Now, is there a toll booth on that bridge, or can I install my own?

    --dES
    "You can observe a lot by watching." - Yogi Bera
    http://www.areturningadultstudent.com
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  8. Member hech54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by t0nee1
    Politicians do it every day (see current U.S pres), and most people buy into it..Now, about the bridge!..
    The bridge to nowhere in Alaska?
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    Actually, they're even worse than that. Looked at ordering a Black Magic Intensity and saw they had theirs at about $10 cheaper ($189) then other places. Howwwwwwwever, they take the analog dongle out of the package and sell it seperately for $42.... Now I'm all for a company making they're due profit, but, that is just underhanded.

    So, yes, buyer beware...
    Have a good one,

    neomaine

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  10. B&H and many other discount stores are also notorious for selling 'gray market' items, which means basically they are not warrantied in the USA. Their best pricing will always be on thos e goods. They do offer USA merchandise as well, and sometimes at a good price, but sometimes too with tricks like removing batteries or software.
    One thing I do have to say for them though is that if you ask them specifically if items are included or about the warranty then they usually will give an honest answer. I believe they have to by NY law.

    So, it's always best to do your research and like I said, Buyer Beware.

    --dES
    "You can observe a lot by watching." - Yogi Bera
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  11. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    B&H has historically not been one of those shady New York / New Jersey camera/video con operations, but they seem to be borrowing a lot of tactics lately. I stopped buying from them unless necessary, both because of this, and because they seem to close all the time. They seem to need maintenance or celebrate a holiday at least 2-3 times per week. B&H was apparently bought out several years ago, and that's really when things turned for them. Never call them, only buy online.
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  12. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    B&H has historically not been one of those shady New York / New Jersey camera/video con operations, but they seem to be borrowing a lot of tactics lately. I stopped buying from them unless necessary, both because of this, and because they seem to close all the time. They seem to need maintenance or celebrate a holiday at least 2-3 times per week. B&H was apparently bought out several years ago, and that's really when things turned for them. Never call them, only buy online.
    Actually LS, trust me when I say that B&H has always been better than most of the NY/NJ stores in that respect but they have never been 100% clean. The big change you are seeing occurred several years ago when they built their emporium store up on 33rd and 9th from their 17th St. location. Also, I believe the business was originally two brothers, at least one of whom is retired now, but it is still a family run business.

    I live in NJ (about 15 minutes from Manhattan) and have been in the photo business since 1983 so I have a little inside info here.

    Ahh history!

    --dES
    "You can observe a lot by watching." - Yogi Bera
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  13. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Just a thought here (so do not shoot the messenger) maybe this outfit are simply ignorant about the TBC capabilities of a Canopus ADVC300.

    Afterall Canopus themselves do not exactly spell out the difference between a Line TBC (what this has) and as full-frame one. Ok, maybe they (Canopus) expect the buyer to know.
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  14. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    I'm getting pretty tired of B&H's BS.
    They are telling customers that TBC's are not needed, and that a Canopus ADVC box replaces the need for a TBC. Anybody with an ounce of analog video knowledge knows what a scam this statement is.
    I am sorry for your dissatisfaction. I will ask someone here more knowledgeable than I to address this. In the meantime, it IS possible the person who said this was mis-informed or spoke in error without it actually being a "scam."

    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Yes, that make it ok for them to blatantly lie.
    As I said, it is possible to be wrong without the error being a blatant lie. We employ humans and humans err from time to time. We also have a 35+ year reputation for integrity. We don't pay our sales associates commissions and we don't tell them which items are more profitable and which are less so.

    Originally Posted by neomaine
    Looked at ordering a Black Magic Intensity and saw they had theirs at about $10 cheaper ($189) then other places. Howwwwwwwever, they take the analog dongle out of the package and sell it seperately for $42.
    I will be happy to investigate this for you, but I cannot find a $42.00 Black Magic dongle on our web site or in our sales database. If you can point me to the product I will see what is what.

    Originally Posted by Des
    B&H and many other discount stores are also notorious for selling 'gray market' items...
    B&H does sell some "grey market" products, mostly 35mm film slrs, lenses for 35mm slrs and speedlights. We take pains to identify any "grey market" item on our site with the notation "Imported" for "grey market," and "USA" for US_warranted. If you click on the notation a window opens explaining the difference. I think "notorious" may have been an ill-advised choice of word, perhaps.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    B&H has historically not been one of those shady New York / New Jersey camera/video con operations, but they seem to be borrowing a lot of tactics lately. I stopped buying from them unless necessary, both because of this, and because they seem to close all the time. They seem to need maintenance or celebrate a holiday at least 2-3 times per week. B&H was apparently bought out several years ago, and that's really when things turned for them. Never call them, only buy online.
    We close mid-afternoon Fridays and are closed all day every Saturday due to Jewish Sabbath observance. Our website is open 24/7/365 except we don't accept paid orders during the same interim. We also close for a handful of other Jewish holidays, but each is well publicized well in advance on our site and in all our advertisements. This is less frequent than once per month, so "at least 2-3 times per week" is just hyperbole. B&H was NOT "bought out several years ago" so all in all I have to say while I respect lordsmurf's opinions, his facts are simply wrong.
    Last edited by henryp; 29th Jan 2010 at 11:10.
    Henry Posner
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  15. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    "Not accepting paid orders" is the same thing as the site being closed. If I'm online and want to buy a $5,000 camera at 4 a.m., and you're closed while Amazon and Adorama are taking orders, guess who gets the sale?

    B&H is the only company out there misleading customers (either intentionally or not) that a digital DV box using decade-old technology replaces the function of analog timebase correction. The ONLY company.

    Something changed a few years ago. I don't remember anymore what it was. Being bought out was apparently not it. There were notices on the B&H site at the time. It may have simply been a change in how the online site operates.

    Again, historically, B&H has been one of the few New York camera operations to be on the level. I've been a customer since the pre-website days.

    There are many photographers, however, who have become dissatisfied in recent years, and taken their funds to Adoroma, Amazon, Calumet and others. It's often blogged about, posted in forums, and discussed in person. I've not given up entirely on B&H yet, but many have.

    Think of it this way...

    When you dole out bad information, you make me look bad! Why? Well, it's because I sent somebody to you, with the specific information about ordering a TBC. (I was sending you business!) But instead of letting the person order the TBC, it somehow turned into a conversation on selling Canopus DV boxes -- a completely unrelated topic in the world of video. I could understand if this happened once or twice. However it has been a chronic issue for several years now.

    These people come back to me (completely confused, no less) and they end up with no confidence in B&H, and then I look stupid because I suggested a store that gives out bad advice. On top of that, they lose confidence in B&H as a store they want to deal with again. We both lose. That's not good. And because B&H really did have the best price, the customer buys from somewhere more expensive. That's not good either.
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  16. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    "Not accepting paid orders" is the same thing as the site being closed.
    I don't want to argue semantics, but I disagree. There are a big handful of things you can do on our site. One is disabled for a relatively brief period. I am sorry if your impatience makes this inconvenience intolerable. Our owner believes his duty to his Deity is more important than the last dime of profit.

    B&H is the only company out there misleading customers
    B&H may be the only company who has inadvertently provided inaccurate information (and I am still waiting for Canopus' current owner to reply to my email confirming or correcting this) but you seem to be the only person who's elected to attach some dark and nefarious purpose to what may be a simple error. As I said, people make mistakes; that does not suggest a conspiracy.

    Something changed a few years ago. I don't remember anymore what it was. Being bought out was apparently not it. There were notices on the B&H site at the time. It may have simply been a change in how the online site operates.
    Shame your memory isn't better here. I cannot be certain what you may be recalling. I can guess it might be our decision not to accept paid orders during the Jewish Sabbath, but only you'd know for sure.

    Again, historically, B&H has been one of the few New York camera operations to be on the level. I've been a customer since the pre-website days.
    Thank you.

    There are many photographers, however, who have become dissatisfied in recent years...
    Many? I will presume this is your opinion, since I hardly think it can be supported as fact. We're always sorry when a customer is dissatisfied and do everything possible to ensure a good experience to every site visitor and every customer. That said, we're also gratified at the many many people, pros and non-pros alike who express their appreciation for what we do and how we do it. I'm a good-better-best type and always want to be better tomorrow than today, but where we are today is not too bad IMO. I am sorry you seem to be harboring some animosity towards us, but I don't think it's beneficial for this forum or its members for this to devolve into a two-person tit-for-tat dialogue.
    Henry Posner
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  17. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    I have no animosity at B&H, not at all. My personal opinion is that B&H has great prices and good service, even if the site/store is closed for several hours per week. I refer B&H all the time. (As stated earlier, however, I do use Amazon more now because they are in-stock, online and accepting orders when I need to make my purchases.)

    Type "b&h not accepting orders" into Google and do some reading. There are thousands of hits for this phrase alone, from displeased consumers and photographers.

    This thread is here solely to address the TBC / DV box misinformation issue that has become a nuisance to myself and others. It should not dissuade anybody from using B&H, not at all. But it should empower people to say "no thanks" when being offered a product different from a TBC. Until now, many people did not know that "no thanks" was the correct response, they were misled into buying a DV box instead of the TBC they needed.

    The fact that B&H is responding here, to this issue, is a good thing.
    (My last direct contact went nowhere.)
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    Originally Posted by henryp
    Our owner believes his duty to his Deity is more important than the last dime of profit.
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  19. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DB83
    Afterall Canopus themselves do not exactly spell out the difference between a Line TBC (what this has) and as full-frame one. Ok, maybe they (Canopus) expect the buyer to know.
    I think the bigger picture is What is a TBC? Unfortunately, not everybody defines it the same way. It's been discussed many times at this site, and others online.

    What exactly does the Canopus box do that warrants it having an internal component that can be labeled as a line TBC? As discussed (search the forum, or search Google for those discussions), the Canopus box "TBC" tends to have no observable effects on the video input, neither in visual cleaning, nor in signal stability.

    NOTE: This excludes the ADVC-300, which filters the snot out of video, often leaving it with temporal artifacts, banded/posterized image quality, and maybe even a surreal/fake/over-processed look.

    The same can be said for many DVD recorders, captures cards, VCRs and even so-called standalone TBCs. What exactly qualifies these devices? What sort of actual corrections are being made? Without being a video engineer, with video analysis tools and the product spec sheets, it's hard to say. Non-engineer consumers and pros alike are just expected to believe what's written on the side of the box. As we've come to learn, the "TBC" function (as we expect it to work, to either stabilize our video or clean the visual quality) goes no deeper than the ink on the box.

    It's easy to see why buyers and sellers alike are confused when it comes to TBCs.

    Maybe my toaster has a TBC?
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  20. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    It's easy to see why buyers and sellers alike are confused when it comes to TBCs.
    Then perhaps a retailer's employee might inadvertently make an inaccurate statement which is neither "BS" nor a lie?
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  21. Originally Posted by ZQX
    Originally Posted by henryp
    Our owner believes his duty to his Deity is more important than the last dime of profit.
    the dude is no joke

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE55Q21L20090627
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  22. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by henryp
    Then perhaps a retailer's employee might inadvertently make an inaccurate statement
    And in the interest of good will, I've gone back and edited my first post to something more against the topic of "DV box not replacing a TBC", and less about B&H.

    Neither BS, nor lie.
    Innocent misinformation that is now being addressed by respected retailer.
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  23. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    And in the interest of good will, I've gone back and edited my first post to something more against the topic of "DV box not replacing a TBC"
    Thank you.
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  24. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Maybe this is not the right topic and maybe my eyes see things differently to others.

    But I can only compare a commercial video captured with a standard capture card - IMO quite a good one as well (Matrox) - which had quite visible tearing of the picture at inconsistent intervals to the same video transfered to the PC under the control of an ADVC300 which then had a stable picture. In fact everything (except sound levels) was left at factory default.

    I also compared another commercial video captured with a Hauppauge card in my present PC which showed visible noise to the same video transfered under the control of a ADVC which, to my eyes (and also with default settings) showed a much improved picture.
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  25. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Tearing is often fixed with a basic frame synchronizer or similar internal filter/processing. Some devices have them, some do not.

    Still not a TBC.
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  26. Originally Posted by henryp
    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Yes, that make it ok for them to blatantly lie.
    As I said, it is possible to be wrong without the error being a blatant lie.
    My reply was to Des' comment:

    Originally Posted by Des
    Don't forget that above and beyond anything else B&H Photos primary goal is to sell things and make a profit.
    which hinted it was ok to lie if the objective was to make a profit.

    I have no direct knowledge of whether B&H lies (Smurf's original claim) to its customers or not.
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  27. Originally Posted by jagabo
    ... it was ok to lie if the objective was to make a profit.
    Each to his own, but IMO it's NOT okay to lie, particularly if the objective was to make a profit.
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  28. Originally Posted by henryp
    Originally Posted by jagabo
    ... it was ok to lie if the objective was to make a profit.
    Each to his own, but IMO it's NOT okay to lie, particularly if the objective was to make a profit.
    I fully agree. I would cease doing business with anyone who lied to me.
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    This may have been just a misunderstanding from the start between Lordsmurf and B&H? Did the B&H employee merely suggest that LS buy the Canopus ADVC first and see if that alone would work for him and that a TBC may not be need? The ADVC would be needed regardless to convert analog tapes to digital.

    I have a couple of Panasonic AG-7500A's, a Hotronic TBC and and ADVC. It all works great, but the TBC is not required. My source material is good clean signaled S-VHS, my decks have a good strong signal and I have quality cables. Back in the dinosaur days of video tape good high quality cables were really important.

    If Lordsmurf had made clear to the B&H employee that he would be dealing with poor quality source material that needed correction maybe all this could have been avoided.

    I applaud Lordsmurf for apologizing to B&H by editing/retracting his original post. I just wonder where he got the keys to the executive washroom for this site. I did not know that we could edit our posts.
    Depends what the definition of the word inhale is.
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  30. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Tearing is often fixed with a basic frame synchronizer or similar internal filter/processing. Some devices have them, some do not.

    Still not a TBC.
    As I'm sure you know, the ADVC300 claims to have a line TBC - something which is also found in several VCRs.

    Re-timing each individual line from the adjacent sync pulses, whilst not as sexy as buffering an entire frame, is exactly what much VHS footage benefits from.

    I don't own an ADVC300, but I've noted that some VideoHelp regulars seem to have almost a pathological hatred for these Canpus devices. It could be because they're expensive for what they are. It could be because (especially in the case of the ADVC110) they actually lack the features for effective VHS capture that were found on some DVD recorders. It could be because they offer less than a comparably priced DV camcorder. It could be because you only get DV from them, while an internal capture card would deliver uncompressed video.

    I don't know. The thing is, you do get out about as good a DV copy of what you put in as is possible. You do get audio and video in sync without even having to think about it. You do get something that you can re-sell for almost what you paid for it. You do get something that's not obscure, is still sold new, and that has known properties.

    If there's better and cheaper out there, set up a shop and sell it to the masses! At least in PAL countries (where DV camcorders with AV inputs are rare and expensive), it's a very useful device.

    Cheers,
    David.
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