What is MTS?

[wingspar]

I searched, and looked in the Glossary to no avail. Nothing on Google either, yet I see the term thrown around as if everyone knows what MTS is. I haven’t a clue.

[poisondeathray]

It's a container format for audio & video and a form of transport stream

[redwudz]

MTS (Mpeg Transport Stream). You will see it commonly in Blu-ray discs as .m2ts streams. A bit of info from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.m2ts

[wingspar]

Thanks. That helps me start to understand it. To help paint the picture better, would mts be like jpg and tif in photography files?

I’m a professional photographer, but treat me as a total uneducated newbie when it comes to video. I have a mess of newbie questions.

[redwudz]

A Mpeg video is a collection of Jpegs. Transport streams may be HD jpegs or similar formats. All digital video is a collection of still frames, AFAIK. Highly compressed video formats use a full quality frame, then follow that with frames that only show the difference to the first, the keyframe. (Properly called a 'I' frame.)

The other two types are 'B' and 'P' frames. That's mostly how they achieve high compression with small filesize. Formats like XviD/Divx may have 300 partial frames before the next keyframe. With DV, every frame is a keyframe. This is important for editing as you need to cut on a keyframe to avoid glitches in the edited video. If your keyframes are 300 frames apart, then frame accurate editing is very difficult. Or you can re-encode after editing to restore the keyframe format.

[edDV]

m2ts is a transport (packetized) MPeg stream. Unlike jpg or tiff, MPeg interframe compresses over a group of frames (GOP).
http://pam.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_transport_stream

[wingspar]

I appreciate the help, but I think I’m just going to have to wait till I finally have a cam, and have worked with it a little to begin to understand some of this stuff, then maybe I can ask some more intelligent questions.

My confusion started when I started researching video cams. The only cam I’ve used was MiniDV, and that was a few years ago. While researching, the new Flash Drive HD cams seem to appeal, but if you can’t easily edit them, I’m wondering if I should just stick with MiniDV?

[edDV]

I appreciate the help, but I think I’m just going to have to wait till I finally have a cam, and have worked with it a little to begin to understand some of this stuff, then maybe I can ask some more intelligent questions.

My confusion started when I started researching video cams. The only cam I’ve used was MiniDV, and that was a few years ago. While researching, the new Flash Drive HD cams seem to appeal, but if you can’t easily edit them, I’m wondering if I should just stick with MiniDV?

I prefer HDV which is MPeg2 on MiniDV tape. HDV also records to a m2t transport stream but it is 1440x1080i MPeg2 which can be easily edited. Check out the Canon HV30 or HV40.

AVCHD for flash drives is much more compressed MPeg4 h.264 and is difficult to edit unless you convert to a digital intermediate format (e.g. Cineform NeoScene $129, or Apple AIC). You may value the convenience of flash but the media cost is 10x more (level 4-6 flash) and you will have more expense and/or difficulty in editing.

If your profile is correct, an AMD 3800 will struggle with HDV and is a no go for AVCHD.

[johns0]

m2ts is a transport (packetized) MPeg stream

M2ts can also be SMPTE VC-1.

[wingspar]

I prefer HDV which is MPeg2 on MiniDV tape. HDV also records to a m2t transport stream but it is 1440x1080i MPeg2 which can be easily edited. Check out the Canon HV30 or HV40.

AVCHD for flash drives is much more compressed MPeg4 h.264 and is difficult to edit unless you convert to a digital intermediate format (e.g. Cineform NeoScene $129, or Apple AIC). You may value the convenience of flash but the media cost is 10x more (level 4-6 flash) and you will have more expense and/or difficulty in editing.

If your profile is correct, an AMD 3800 will struggle with HDV and is a no go for AVCHD.

I did put the Canon HV30 on my short list the other day. It’s used for $599.99. New, the Canon HV40 is $715.95. The HV30 would probably suit me nice, and it even has a viewfinder. Something most of the newer HD models do not have. $600 is right at the top end of what I want to spend. The next thing that appeals is the Canon GL2 Mini DV 3CCD.

From what I’ve been reading on AVCHD, additional expense and hassle for editing is probably much more than it’s worth for me. The HV30 is starting to sound like the cam of my choice. In looking at the specs for the HV30, I see the recording media is High Definition MiniDV or MiniDV cassette. Sounds like two different types of MiniDV tape available today. Is the HD tape much better than the older MiniDV tapes? I still have a few new unopened MiniDV tapes.

Yes, my profile is correct. The AMD 3800+ is a dual core processor. I built this rig from scratch back in the spring of 06. It’s still fast, and nothing I can do in Photoshop will slow it down. This has just been the best computer I’ve ever owned. I’ll never buy off the shelf computers again. I shouldn’t have any problem with videos. Can’t speak for AVCHD tho, but I’d be surprised it my rig couldn’t handle it.

[edDV]

HDV is a different format that records on the same MiniDV tapes and transfers over Firewire. DV is 720x480i and records every frame. HDV is 1440x1080i and records MPeg2 over a 15 frame GOP. Both use the same 25 Mb/s bit rate.

Normal consumer MiniDV tape will work fine but for the same price (less than $3 per tape on sale) you can buy pro spec DV tape that is better for durability. For your daughter's wedding you might want to use a $10 master tape.
http://www.tapestockonline.com/pa63mipqus.html

16MB level 4-6 SD flashram for AVCHD retails $60-90 but can be found on sale as low as $32. Even on sale, MiniDV tape is 10x lower in price.
http://store.lexar.com/?category=21&subcategory=56&productid=LSD16GFSBNAHD

[wingspar]

Thanks. That helps. Both formats use the same MiniDV. I found those Panasonic tapes at the place I’ll be ordering the cam, and bookmarked them.

For what it’s worth, the specs for the HV30 say High Definition MiniDV or MiniDV cassette. Gives me the impression there are two types of tape, but there doesn’t seem to be.

Now, I keep reading that you need firewire to transfer from cams, but none of the cams I’ve been looking at have firewire ports. For instance the specs for the HV30 say:

HDMI (Type A)
USB (mini-B)
A/V Mini (3.5mm 4 pole Mini-jack)
DV out
Component out

No mention of firewire at all, and no firewire cable seems to come with the HV30. My motherboard has a firewire port, so that is not a problem, but why is firewire always mentioned for downloading from cam? For what it’s worth, the MiniDV cam I used a few years ago had to be connected to the computer via firewire. Did not learn that till after I got the cam, so had to order a firewire card for the computer.

[edDV]

"DV out"

[wingspar]

I decided to Google "DV out" before asking what you were talking about. Why don’t they just say firewire in the specs? Or IEEE1394?

There is no firewire cord that comes with the HV30, but there is a USB cord. There really seems to be something missing from this picture. What is the USB cord used for?

I did find something on the Canon site that says the firewire cord is sold separately. What the?? If that’s the only way to get video to your computer, why do they sell the firewire cord separately, and why are they not up front about this in their product info? Very confusing.

I remember when I bought that cam at work a few years ago, I had no idea about the firewire till after I got the cam, and tried to download video. I then had to spend time researching the info, then had to order a firewire card, and wait another week or so before I could really start downloading videos. In the meantime, tapes just started piling up on my desk. In this case, my motherboard has a firewire port, and I have a firewire cable I’m not using, so no big deal, but this really seems like a critical piece of the puzzle for being able to download videos, let alone edit them. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

[Jim44]

I decided to Google "DV out" before asking what you were talking about. Why don’t they just say firewire in the specs? Or IEEE1394?

It's mentioned on the Canon page - select "Edit and Share Your Video" under the "Features" tab.

There is no firewire cord that comes with the HV30, but there is a USB cord. There really seems to be something missing from this picture. What is the USB cord used for?

Usually the USB cable is for transferring still pictures from the camera to the computer.

I did find something on the Canon site that says the firewire cord is sold separately. What the?? If that’s the only way to get video to your computer, why do they sell the firewire cord separately, and why are they not up front about this in their product info? Very confusing.

What's not "up front"? There's a "What's in the Box" tab that mentions exactly what is included.

As to why, probably to save cost? Similar to why most DVD players don't come with an HDMI cable?

Usually not a big deal, I just order what I need from Monoprice.com.

[wingspar]

It's mentioned on the Canon page - select "Edit and Share Your Video" under the "Features" tab.

Usually the USB cable is for transferring still pictures from the camera to the computer.

How can you burry that info any deeper. I never saw that till you pointed to it. While most of this is second nature to those that have done lots of video, it is Not second nature to anyone who has not. It still makes no sense that no firewire cable is included, but a USB cable for downloading still photos is? That baffles me to no end. Is this a video cam, or a still cam? And, why wouldn’t one be able to use the firewire to download stills? I know there are firewire readers for CF cards from dSLR cameras. Do you start to see why this can be confusing, causing more questions to be raised? Trust me. I would bet good money that thousands buy these cams with no idea they need a firewire card and cable. I’ve been that route. Very frustrating. And, I see the industry has not changed one bit over the last 7 years.

What's not "up front"? There's a "What's in the Box" tab that mentions exactly what is included.

Sure, there is a "What's in the Box" list, and even a photo, which just leads one to believe everything one needs is included with the camera, when one of the most important items is not included, and if it’s really mentioned that you need firewire, it’s burried very deep, and at the site I’m going to buy the camera from, there is zero mention of firewire. Only DV Out, and you have to know what that means. Till edDV pointed that out in his last post, I still wouldn’t know.

Anyway, not to sound like a whiner on a soap box, I am learning stuff, but to a newbie, this can be very confusing, specially when the manufacturer does not include pertinent information critical to being able to download and edit videos. I really thought all I was going to need to download videos was the USB cable included with the cam.

I really do appreciate any help or advise that can be given, specially if anyone has any videos you have done with the HV30, I’d love to see them.

[edDV]

I have the HV20 and can answer any questions.

The IEEE-1394 out is called "DV out" on the Canon camcorders.

There seems to be a tradition with MiniDV camcorder manufacturers to not supply the IEEE-1394 cable and I share your disgust. Way back they cost $40, now $4 or so.

You can download the manuals here
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=...nloadDetailAct

Search this site for HV20 or HV30 and you will find some samples.

There is a full forum site dedicated to the HV series
http://www.hv20.com/

[wingspar]

Thank you. I’ve pretty much decided on the HV30, and will probably click on the “Buy it Now” button today. Most of my questions have been answered, I just didn’t expect to go thru this hidden firewire thing again. The specs on the cam, and others I’ve looked at, all only mention USB, so I assumed that the method of transferring video from the cam to the computer was now done via USB, so you can imagine my frustration and soap box post.

As I’ve mentioned, I have a firewire port on my motherboard, and I also have a couple of firewire cables laying around somewhere, so I’m already set for that. I just wasn’t expecting that.

I appreciate your help. I might still have questions on software, but for now, Windows Movie Maker will work while I research for software, and maybe have to wait till the first of the month to buy any. I used Pinnacle in the past. I got very familiar with it, working with it intensely for weeks taking 8 plus hours of video and making it into a move with out takes.

Tho I’m not stuck on Pinnacle, I am open to looking at Vegas, and others, whose names escape me now. I know Adobe has video editing software, and since I have CS3 Extended, the Adobe software might make sense. I looked briefly at Vegas and Pinnacle the other day, and I like the dark gray background of Pinnacle (easier on the eyes), but Pinnacle takes up over 2GB of hard drive space. That might be a problem. Vegas only takes up about 200MB. No problem. The cost for the middle software packages of both of them is very reasonable.

Thanks for the link to that forum. I just bookmarked it, and will join, and read.

[wingspar]

There is a full forum site dedicated to the HV series
http://www.hv20.com/

I’ve joined, and made an intro post. Found some videos made with the HV30. I will be buying it today.

[edDV]

Windows Media Maker under XP will work for DV but not for HDV.

If you like Pinnacle Studio get the latest version for HD editing. I generally find Studio buggy and unreliable.

I like
Vegas Platinum or Pro
Premiere Elements 4 up or CS3/CS4
ULead Video Studio (HDV version) ... forget the name.

If you edit HDV, be prepared for Core2Duo or AMD Phenom lust.

[wingspar]

I’ve used Pinnacle Studio, and didn’t find it to be buggy at all, even tho I saw those comments in forums. I’m not stuck on Pinnacle tho. I’ve taken a very quick and dirty look at the following, and bookmarked them. I’m not a fan of Corel products, but the Corel Video Studio Pro X2 does look nice. I am limited on hard drive space on my C:\ drive, so that will help to determine what I get. I have a 10,000 rpm hard drive that is only 36GB in size. Very expensive to go larger when I built this rig. I’ve got tons of storage in other internal hard drives, and do plan on upgrading to the 10,000 rpm 150GB hard drive for the C:\ drive, but that won’t be any time soon, so I’d like to keep the size of the program down.

Tho I’m not a fan of Corel products, their dark gray user interface does appeal. Easy on the eyes. Vegas is white. Harder on the eyes. So, it may be between those two. Adobe Elements seems to have a lot of bloat I’ll never have any need for. Price on all these programs is reasonable.

Vegas Movie Studio Platinum needs 200MB hard drive space

Corel Video Studio Pro X2 (ULead) needs 1GB hard drive space

Pinnacle Studio HD Needs 3.2GB hard drive space

Pinnacle Studio Ultimate needs 3.3GB hard drive space

Adobe Premier Elements 8 needs 4.5GB hard drive space

How does CS3 fit into video editing?

[poisondeathray]

Many editors can change "skins" or the appearance of the GUI. Just because the default is black or white, doesn't necessarliy mean it's stuck like that

If you were referring to Premiere Pro, CS3 is very bloated, and CS4 is even more bloated both for memory and HD space. If your primary concern is HD space, avoid them at all costs. They are also more expensive than the other options you listed

Hard drives are very inexpensive these days, and if you have older generation 10k raptor or scsi 10k as your primary drive, even 7200rpm drives these days are faster for most tasks and transfer speeds. The platter densities are higher. Also as you fill capacity, your speeds taper off linearly. An "empty" drive is much faster than a "full" one

[wingspar]

I built this rig from scratch in 2006. I used the 36GB 10,000 rpm Raptor for my C:\ drive. I do plan on upgrading to the current 10,000 rpm 150GB drive sometime in the next few months, but in the meantime, space on the C:\ drive is getting down there. If I put Premier or Pinnacle on, that would put me below the 15% free drive space needed to defrag the hard drive. I want to make this drive last as long as possible.

I am a photographer, and have had CS3 for some time, and have CS4 in the box unopened. Waiting till I get the new drive before I install it. I have about 700GB of drive space separate from the Raptor.

As for changing skins on the software packages, I haven’t looked into that yet. That is a question I have about Vegas.

[poisondeathray]

Well Vegas 9 pro is the dark grey shade, Vegas 8 is the white shade.

In Vegas 9 pro, you can change it to the old white GUI in the options => preferences=> display => use vegas color scheme

I'm not sure about the studio version

[edDV]

wingspar,

Why be so speed excessive and capacity deficient?

I'm a past Photoshop geek.

Are you mapping the moon for NASA? Why do you need this rig for photo?

[wingspar]

Well Vegas 9 pro is the dark grey shade, Vegas 8 is the white shade.

In Vegas 9 pro, you can change it to the old white GUI in the options => preferences=> display => use vegas color scheme

I'm not sure about the studio version

Vegas Pro is several hundred dollars above what I’m willing to spend. I have no intentions or desires to go pro. At my age, I’m slowing down, and this is a new hobby more or less, but I like the idea of being creative. I won an award for a video I did at work a few years ago. I had fun doing it. I took 8 hours of video and made a 27 minute movie out of it with music and out takes. Not even sure what I’m going to video yet.

wingspar,

Why be so speed excessive and capacity deficient?

I'm a past Photoshop geek.

Are you mapping the moon for NASA? Why do you need this rig for photo?

For the C:\ drive, I did not realize I would outgrow it, well maybe I did. It was meant for, and only used for programs. No storage. When I built it, I wanted all state of the art components, and I didn’t want to go whole hog on everything only to build in a bottleneck with a slow hard drive. This rig still rocks.

I’ve been a sports photographer for several years, coming home from games with up to 1k plus images at times, tho the average is 300 to 500 images per game. Speed and lots of hard drive space has always been important along with the external hard drive space for backup. The C:\ drive is for nothing but programs. I have 700GB of drive space with lots of space left, and I can see adding more before too long. I just put in a new 320GB drive a month or so ago, and will probably add another 500GB drive before too long.

[poisondeathray]

Well Vegas 9 pro is the dark grey shade, Vegas 8 is the white shade.

In Vegas 9 pro, you can change it to the old white GUI in the options => preferences=> display => use vegas color scheme

I'm not sure about the studio version

Vegas Pro is several hundred dollars above what I’m willing to spend. I have no intentions or desires to go pro.

I only mentioned that because the studio version looks and behaves almost identically to the pro version. If you , or someone else here , or a friend , had that version installed or even the trial, they could check to see if the switch works for that version

Slowing down? In my mind, "backwards hat guy" in your avatar suggests 30 year old to me, but I'm just guessing

Cheers

[wingspar]

I only mentioned that because the studio version looks and behaves almost identically to the pro version. If you , or someone else here , or a friend , had that version installed or even the trial, they could check to see if the switch works for that version

Slowing down? In my mind, "backwards hat guy" in your avatar suggests 30 year old to me, but I'm just guessing

I suppose I could find out if that switch works from someone. It would be nice to know.

Well, the photo in my avatar was taken 3 or 4 years ago, but you are a few years off on the age. I’m 63, and been retired since 2005, tho I still cover sports as a photographer. The bill of the hat gets in the way when shooting sports, so it’s always on backwards when I’m on the field.