Good Results on Video to Photo Logo Removal?

[Disco Makberto]

Greetings to all!

Assuming that we have a video that has a solid logo that appears briefly, less than a second, on a solid background section of the video, will it make sense to?:

1) Isolate the video part with the logo on frame by frame basis
2) Convert each frame to photo files like JPEG or something alike
3) Use something like PhotoShop or PhotoFiltre to mask the logo
4) Reincorporate the edited section to the non-edited video using something like Premiere

The reason why I am asking you this is because, when we are dealing with a logo on a photo, even when it is a solid logo (as opposed to a watermark) that is surrounded by a solid background, it is easy to remove the logo by sort of copying and pasting a sample of the surrounded background over the logo. The results using this method are wonderful. Once done, it is basically impossible to know that a logo was there.

On the other hand, if I understand correctly, if I want to try to remove the logo directly on the video using something like DeLogo or XLogo, the results are not always impeccable and more often than not different parameters have to be used to achieve good results that, again, are not always what we are expecting.

Please let me know, without taking into account the fact that editing on a frame by frame basis is time consuming, am I on a right path?

All the best,

Carlos Albert "Disco Mak"
Disco Makberto

[Bjs]

If the background remains a solid color then yes

Otherwise no

Where background behind logo shifts replacement section for overlay can be taken from previous frames or those after but may need some blending if not a perfectly matched sample

Video to pic (any format), edited, back to video (any means) ... going to be there a long long time

[guns1inger]

If it is a solid colour then you can probably just mask it in a video editor. I have done this in Vegas before, but only where the background is a solid, not a pattern.

[Disco Makberto]

I appreciate your replies.

I didn't know that Vegas can mask logos (when the background is solid, of course).

Guns1inger, would you say that the results using Vegas on a video is comparable to doing the same but on a series of individual photo frames coming from the same video? Or do you think that going the frame by frame approach will result in a better logo-free output?

Bjs, yes, I know, my approach is time consuming. But again, I am taking about a logo that appears for about half a second....so we are dealing with around 15 frames only. No way that my approach makes sense with longer videos of even a few minutes of duration...unless we are prepared to deal with a "never ending" tomorrow (:

Carlos Albert "Disco Mak"
Disco Makberto

[jagabo]

You may also be able to cut from a frame before or after the logo and paste into the frames with the logo. You can do this in a video editor or an image editor. This can work well even with complex patterns and a little motion:

An earlier frame without a logo:


A later frame with a logo:


a crop from the no-logo frame:


pasted onto the frame with the logo:

[Disco Makberto]

Thanks for your innovative idea, Jagabo! (:

My earlier dilemma still stands. Assuming a video with an easier scenario in the form of a solid logo (not watermark) surrounded by a solid background, is is better to mask the logo with a video editor or with a image editor on a frame by frame basis? As from I have been able to gather online, I have the impression that better results can be achieved on a frame by frame basis (imperfect solutions doing it directly on the video have been commonly reported). On the other hand, I could be wrong.

Carlos Albert "Disco Mak"
D-Makberto

[poisondeathray]

I think you will always get better results in terms of quality doing it "by hand" or painting each frame. The dilemma is how much effort you are willing to put in

Some applications like after effects share many of the same tools as photoshop (e.g. clone stamp tool for airbrushing). Photoshop CS4 can open some videos.

[jagabo]

If it's truly a solid background it will look the same whether you do it in a video editor or an image editor. Aside from possible colorspace issues. Image editors work in RGB, exporting from video's native YUV to RGB may cause a very small color shift. On the other hand, many video editors do all their filtering in RGB -- in which case you have the same color shifts either way. Doing it in a video editor will be much less work though.

[Disco Makberto]

Great to read your answers!

Poisondeathray, working with 15 frames is a task that can be achieved within a weekend, so I don't think it should be a huge effort.

Jagabo, thank you for your explanation concerning quality issues. Well, the solution appears to be finding a video editor that works with YUV and that can mask the solid logo surrounded by a solid background. Could you please advise on some not-so-expensive softwares that can achieve this?

Carlos Albert "DM"
Disco Mak

[AlanHK]

For 15 frames I'd be tempted to just treat them as "bad" and replace them with freezeframes, say 7 from the one before the logo and 8 from after. If there was movement, maybe blend a couple in the middle.

Otherwise I'd use Xlogo, no one would notice the small blurred region for a half-second unless it was pointed out.

Or you could combine these, hand paint two or three frames and duplicate.

[Disco Makberto]

Hi, AlanHK!

I think your approach is doable, and you are right in what you say. However, if I can take an extra step in achieving a blurry-free section where the logo used to be, I am all for it. And, yes, nobody will see a small blurred region for half a second, but it doesn't hurt to make it blurry-free, well, except maybe that more effort and time are needed.

If I get new ideas, I will mention them.

Carlos Albert "D-Makberto"
Disco Makberto

[Disco Makberto]

Hello, there!

As promised, I now have more comments.

To begin with, after quite some research online, I haven't found any reference about any logo removal on a video that didn't leave any trace. This trace is usually represented in the form of some blurriness, which can be minor or almost unnoticeable, but still there. On the other hand, there are many references online by virtue of which a logo is completely wipe out of a photo leaving absolutely no trace of it at all; it is impossible to know that a logo was there. All of this has led me to think that it is more effective to mask a logo on a video if it is done on a frame-by-frame basis in the form of photos as opposed to doing it directly on the video. By the way, it appears that there is no reference at all on the Internet about how to do it on a frame-by-frame basis, so I suppose we have a first here. (:

To continue, I have found a path to do this with completely free sofware. We just need VirtualDub (or VirtualDubMod), DeLogo applied to VirtualDub, and PhotoFiltre. In a nutshell, the process can be done this way:

1) Convert your video to AVI using a lossless codec like HuffYuv or Lagarith (MPEG to AVI can be done with VirtualDubMod).
2) With VirtualDub, isolate the section to be processed with key frame exactness.
3) Open DeLogo within VirtualDub, and save every frame of the isolated section to BMP files.
4) Import the BMP files to PhotoFiltre.
5) Mask the logo on each BMP file using the "Stamp Tool" on Photofiltre.
6) Render the BMP files to AVI using VirtualDub.
7) Join this corrected AVI part to the untouched AVI parts.
8) You now have your a logo-free complete video in AVI.
9) If desired, convert back to the video standard of your original video (like MPEG, for instance).

Well, I hope this helps a bit.

Please be so kind to post any comment if you have one.

Cheers,

Carlos Albert "Disco Mak"
Disco Makberto

[jagabo]

I haven't found any reference about any logo removal on a video that didn't leave any trace. This trace is usually represented in the form of some blurriness, which can be minor or almost unnoticeable, but still there. On the other hand, there are many references online by virtue of which a logo is completely wipe out of a photo leaving absolutely no trace of it at all

Of course. In the latter case a human being is using his brain to decide exactly what to do with each frame. But lets see you use your manual method on a two hour movie with a logo in very single frame.

Also be aware that just because the logo removal in each individual frame is not visible it may become visible once strung back together into a video. Ie, there may be unintended motion in the area where the logo used to be.

[Disco Makberto]

Hey, Jagabo!

I appreciate your reply.

Indeed, working on a frame-by-frame basis is a method that can only be realistically applied to a video that has a temporary logo. I am talking about something like music video clips with logos in the beginning and at the end. Hollywood-type movies of two hours with a constant logo are out of the question simply due to time constraints.

Now that we are talking about music video clips, I would like to ask you a question. Regarding the photos that you posted above, when you are pasting the mini-cropped section to the full frame to cover the logo, which software are you using? You know, I think I have an idea based on your advice. It is fairly common to find the same music video clip from, let's say, two different video companies. One company places its logo on a specific part of the video while the other company places its logo on a different specific part of the video. Of course, these logos are temporary. My idea is to identify the frames with logo on one video and the same frames but logo free on the other video, and then follow your method to mask the logo on the frames that have the logo. This is more or less the same that you did, but instead of using frames before or after the logo, I am thinking about using logo free frames from the same video but from a different company.

Thanks a lot,

Carlos Albert "D-M"
Disco Makberto

P.S.: I hope not to have an issue with the unintended motion you are mentioning. Thanks for letting me know about it!

[manono]

I presume he did it using the Overlay command of AviSynth. Your idea of taking a non-logo part from one video and sticking it over a logo part of a different version of the same video is also simple in AviSynth, using the Overlay (or Layer) command:

http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Overlay

You crop down one video to just the area where the logo would be and then stick it over the logo part of the other video. In the case of jagabo's pics from earlier in the thread, he can crop down the frame without the logo and then apply it to the frames that have the logo.

[jagabo]

No, I exported two frames from VirtualDub via Video -> Copy Source Frame To ClipBoard and pasted them into an image editor. I used an old copy of Ulead PhotoImpact to do the cut and paste.

[lordsmurf]

after quite some research online, I haven't found any reference about any logo removal on a video that didn't leave any trace. This trace is usually represented in the form of some blurriness, which can be minor or almost unnoticeable, but still there.

More often, you're left with a large blob that looks like a big fat water drop was on the camera.

[manono]

No, I exported two frames from VirtualDub via Video -> Copy Source Frame To ClipBoard and pasted them into an image editor. I used an old copy of Ulead PhotoImpact to do the cut and paste.

Oh, Ok then. I guess I only explained how I'd do it. I sure wouldn't do the replacing of multiple frames in a photo editor when it can be done way faster in AviSynth. And if, as he said, it's on a solid background, there shouldn't be any trace at all of the logo remaining when done. Although we haven't seen any examples of just what kind of video, logo, or background he's talking about.

[jagabo]

I was fixing single frame as an example. That was much easier to do in an image editor than with AviSynth.

[vhelp]

although we haven't seen any examples of just what kind of video, logo, or background he's talking about.

I keep hearing screaming inside my head, "..post examples..post examples.." and can't get it out!

. . .

The only way to do the manual manovers realistically and quickly is through some home-brew utility designed specifically for this type of work, one that opens two videos side by side, including two cropping or layering masks to crop-and-swap. But this needs something visual because it would seem that you would need to review the different sections of frames indipendantly, WYSIWYG-ly. hmm.. I wonder if I can do something like this in one of my avi utilis. I'll have to think about that one, its interesting.

[EDIT: doesn't seem possible with Adobe Elements, you can not open two timeline, let a long rig a crop/swap layer] Or, maybe you could build a mask or layer'thingy, an (x,y, by length,hight) in some timeline type editor. I wonder if adobe premier elements might be able to do that via masks or layers feature. I might be able to figure it out once I get it installed completely. But, maybe someone else has premier installed already and can advise the op ?

I'm interested in this as well actually, because I've vested time in delogo type algos and things too, and the op's idea is a new one I hadn't thought of.

-vhelp 5267

:P *~*!*~*!~* HaPpY HoLiDaYs *~*!*~*!~*

[Disco Makberto]

I am more than glad to read the replies from all of you!

Manono, I am sure that great results can be achieved with AviSynth. Unfortunately, I don't know how to use AviSynth, and I am not familiar with working with scripts.

Jagabo, I will check Ulead PhotoImpact. The free PhotoFiltre should be able to do it, too, if it is just copy (the cropped section with no logo) and paste (over the section with logo). I suppose that manual coordination between the logo free section and the logo section needs to be taken into account.

Lodsmurf, yes, that is what I mean, a sort of watery drop after applying logo removal directly to the video as opposed to doing it on frame-by-frame basis. Still, some posters here say that if the surrounding area of the logo is solid, even if doing it directly to the video, the results after applying logo removal are undistinguisable from original logo free sources. I have no reason to believe otherwise, but oddly, I haven't been able to find even one example of this on the Internet.

Vhelp, it is nice to know that we are on the same page. Showing the two videos on two windows side-by-side would be of great help; that is a great idea. From the top of my mind, I can't advise you of any sofware that can do this, but if I am not mistaken, there are such softwares. Can anybody let us know?

As requested, here are some examples about the type of work I am talking about:

For the easy task, namely removing a temporary solid logo within a solid background, please watch this music video clip by Paul McCartney:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x22vz3_paul-mccartney-coming-up_music

For the more complicated task, namely replacing a logo section of a music video X with the same section but logo free coming from the same music video X sourced from a different supplier, please watch this music video by The Jacksons from two different channels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtzD8E51Zjk

http://vidds.net/v/en/jacksons-torture_d4d3i324q3m3j364o4z2x2.html

As you can see, the logo on both of these versions of the same music video by The Jacksons is placed on different locations on each video, so the idea is to eliminate the logo section on the first video by pasting the same section but logo free coming from the second video.

Well, I think this pretty much covers everything.

Regards to everybody, my e-friends!

Carlos Albert "Disco Makberto"
D-Mak

P.S.: Please note that the links are examples only. I already have those videos in better quality (with logos, of course).

[poisondeathray]

If you have 2 identical cuts (same dimensions, number of frames), just different logos , this is a piece of cake with either avisynth or NLE's like premiere or even compositing software like after effects. But your online examples have different dimensions, different number of frames, different fps, different aspect ratio and letter boxing, different color, etc... So it is more challenging. I'm not sure what characteristics your "real" examples exhibit

The basic technique is to mask 1 layer so only parts of it show (or are covered) and overlay it on the other video. If the videos are the same cuts (same versions), you will not be able to notice the difference at all. This is easier to do in NLE's because you just draw a box. But it's pretty simple to do in avisynth. This would literally take a few minutes to do if your cuts are the same.

The benefit of doing in avisynth would be no YV12=>RGB=>YV12 colorspace conversion. The negatives of doing it in avisynth are that it's a bit harder, less intuitive, fewer masking tools like feathering should you need it

If they differ somewhat (maybe dropped frames), there will be some manual manipulation involved of matching frames. In this case doing it in a NLE would be much much easier. You can open several videos preview for example in the source monitor, program monitor, reference monitor much like vhelp alluded to. In avisynth you could use stacking functions to display several videos, or use avsp to open them in different tabs.

For complex projects that have non similar cuts (different cuts, or dimensions), I would still decompress to lossless images like .png, edit those, then reassemble them.

[jagabo]

Poisondeathray is right. In reality just about everything about two videos is likely to be different so it's not practical to overlay parts of one onto another. Here are frames from the Michael Jackson video linked to (just screen dumps):



The sizes are different, the black levels are different, the contrast and gamma are different, the colors are different. Good luck trying to match all that.

[AlanHK]

Still, some posters here say that if the surrounding area of the logo is solid, even if doing it directly to the video, the results after applying logo removal are undistinguisable from original logo free sources. I have no reason to believe otherwise, but oddly, I haven't been able to find even one example of this on the Internet.

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic333648.html

[jagabo]

Before and after, logo perfectly removed:

[Disco Makberto]

I am sorry for my delay in posting again, but I have been having a hectic week due to family issues.

Poisondeathray, thanks for your detailed explanation. I agree with you that for complex projects, manual manipulation on a frame-by-frame basis is the way to go. But again, it depends on how complex the project is....this is something that cannot be achieved over a weekend.

On a related note, some things can only be achieved via manual manipulation and not directly over the video; for instance, I can name removing a temporary logo that is placed within a background that is in perpective. The results doing this manually are, for the most part, really outstanding.

Jagabo, you are aboslutely right. For complex projects, and due to time constraints, it might not be practical to undertake a complex project. But that doesn't mean it is impossible, well, it is extremely time consuming, but not impossible. Again, if time is not available, absolutely doing it directly over the video is the best option.

AlanHK and Jagabo, it is really nice to know that a logo can be removed without leaving any trace. In this sense, I was also reading that the more the background deviates from black color, the more adjustments are needed.

Talking about removing logos manually, the folks behind MSU logo remover say that their software also works manually...this could be something worth investigating.

Until next time,

Carlos Albert
Disco Makberto

[AlanHK]

AlanHK and Jagabo, it is really nice to know that a logo can be removed without leaving any trace. In this sense, I was also reading that the more the background deviates from black color, the more adjustments are needed.

The mask for Xlogo is the logo, in white, on a black background.
You can manufacture this by painting if necessary.

Once you've created the mask, the filter works well on any smooth area, of any colour.

[jagabo]

Yes, a logo over any solid color background is easily erased. In fact a logo over any static background is easily replaced. It's only when the background changes that it becomes difficult.

[Disco Makberto]

Thumbs up!

Carlos Albert
D-Makberto