Another 4/3 letterbox to 16/9 WS question

[julitomg]

Hello everyone

I know this has been asked before (but most posts I´ve found here on the subject deal with DVD to avi and viceversa), here´s my problem: I just did a 3 camera shoot of an amateur stage play, I used my own Panasonic DVC-30 in "squeeze" mode (to obtain a 16/9 image), I was going to borrow two Sony HVR-Z1N (and also set them in widescreen mode) but in the end could only get one and in the last minute I got and used a Panasonic PV GS200 (wich also has 3 CCDs but it´s "cinema mode" means it just adds black bars to the top and bottom of the 4/3 image it records) Now I want to edit the 3 with Premiere 6.5 in DV widecreen mode. Obviously I want to remove those black bars and make the GS200 footage widescreen to match the rest of the footage. The method I was thinking to use is the following:
1) load the 4/3 file in Virtualdub
2) crop and resize (crop 30 px from top and bottom each to get a 720X360 file and then resize back to 720X480)
3) save as avi using lagarith or Huffyuv lossless
3) use Procoder to convert the lossless file to microsoft DV (selecting widescreen flag)
Is this basically correct?, any unnecesary steps?, while in step # 2) should I deinterlace and if so, what would be the best method within Virtualdub? (being the source material, DV AVI, lower field first, etc..)
Thanks in advance.

[DB83]

If you are going to use procoder then why not just do a recrop in that and re-encode as 16:9 -(540 minus 2*30 = 480 NOT 360 ). IIRC you need 720*420 or 2*60)

Now I have only used this fo dv to mpeg2 and I did not need to de-interlace (PAL source) so I do not know whether it would be neccessary to de-interlace the NTSC source first (also with procoder)

[edDV]

Hello everyone

I know this has been asked before (but most posts I´ve found here on the subject deal with DVD to avi and viceversa), here´s my problem: I just did a 3 camera shoot of an amateur stage play, I used my own Panasonic DVC-30 in "squeeze" mode (to obtain a 16/9 image), I was going to borrow two Sony HVR-Z1N (and also set them in widescreen mode) but in the end could only get one and in the last minute I got and used a Panasonic PV GS200 (wich also has 3 CCDs but it´s "cinema mode" means it just adds black bars to the top and bottom of the 4/3 image it records) Now I want to edit the 3 with Premiere 6.5 in DV widecreen mode. Obviously I want to remove those black bars and make the GS200 footage widescreen to match the rest of the footage. The method I was thinking to use is the following:
1) load the 4/3 file in Virtualdub
2) crop and resize (crop 30 px from top and bottom each to get a 720X360 file and then resize back to 720X480)
3) save as avi using lagarith or Huffyuv lossless
3) use Procoder to convert the lossless file to microsoft DV (selecting widescreen flag)
Is this basically correct?, any unnecesary steps?, while in step # 2) should I deinterlace and if so, what would be the best method within Virtualdub? (being the source material, DV AVI, lower field first, etc..)
Thanks in advance.

So you have?

Cam 1: DC-30 in DV "wide" mode
Cam 2: HVR-Z1N in DV "wide" mode? Or is it HDV 16x9?

then,
Cam 3 : GS-200 in DV 4x3 mode with letterbox?

I'm not sure how you get that camera to produce letterbox on the DV IEEE-1394 transfer. That isn't a DV format mode. Most DV camcorders show "wide" as letterbox on the analog outputs. So confirm that you are seeing letterbox after transfer.

It could be the GS-200 is just lacking the wide flag. In Premiere, right click on the GS200 clips on the timeline and make sure the properties show 16x9 wide aspect.

If you are stuck with letterbox, any conversion will soften resolution vs. the other cameras. I would have used the good cams for the wide cover shots and the GS-200 for tight shots. Then you could have creatively used the lower res tight shots as a size reduced overlay rather than as a full screen shot.

[jagabo]

1) load the 4/3 file in Virtualdub
2) crop and resize (crop 30 px from top and bottom each to get a 720X360 file and then resize back to 720X480)
3) save as avi using lagarith or Huffyuv lossless

That's the basic idea but VirtualDub won't give you the best interlaced resizing.

1) The resize filter has an interlaced option. I think internally it does the same as unfold fields side by side, resize, fold side by side fields together. This generates ringing artifacts on sharp horizontal edges.

2) You can try using Crop, Deinterlace Yadif with double frame rate, resize, then interlace again. That will alleviate ringing on sharp horizontal edges. But Yadif sometimes doesn't do a good job of deinterlacing. You may end up with more objectionable artifacts than the first method.

3) The best would be to do your filtering in AviSynth using TempGaussMC_beta() to bob deinterlace, resizing, SeparateFields(), SelectEvery(), and Weave():

AVISource("DVi.AVI")
Crop(0,60,720,360)
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true) #if necessary
TempGaussMC_beta1()
BilinearResize(720,480) #or other resize filter
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)
Weave()
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

Notes:

I convert to YUY2 in the end because many programs don't handle interlaced YV12 properly.

I cropped first then deinterlaced because it's faster. But you might get better results deinterlacing first, then cropping. The motion vector analysis of TempGauss will work better.

[aedipuss]

i don't know. even if you go to the trouble of removing the bars, the par is still going to be wrong. the DVavi widescreen videos will have an aspect ratio of 1.2121 and the cropped gs200 will be at 0.9191. i might skip the bar removal and just pan and scan the gs200 footage in the editor.


for future reference if you had shot the gs200 in "slim" mode it wouldn't have the bars in the video.

[jagabo]

i don't know. even if you go to the trouble of removing the bars, the par is still going to be wrong. the DVavi widescreen videos will have an aspect ratio of 1.2121 and the cropped gs200 will be at 0.9191.

If he crops and resizes and sets the PAR to 40:33 it will display properly. If he can't force the PAR in the file he can override the source PAR in the editor. The only issues whether he can live with the blur and artifacts.

[julitomg]

Thanks to all

DB83

If you are going to use procoder then why not just do a recrop in that and re-encode as 16:9 -(540 minus 2*30 = 480 NOT 360 ). IIRC you need 720*420 or 2*60)

I thought I´d encounter interlace issues but´ll make some tests, obviously if I can skip the whole Virtualdub step it would be the best (Virtualdub is indeed a great tool but it´s almost two hours of footage; large files and render times)

edDV

So you have?

Cam 1: DC-30 in DV "wide" mode
Cam 2: HVR-Z1N in DV "wide" mode? Or is it HDV 16x9?

then,
Cam 3 : GS-200 in DV 4x3 mode with letterbox?

I'm not sure how you get that camera to produce letterbox on the DV IEEE-1394 transfer. That isn't a DV format mode. Most DV camcorders show "wide" as letterbox on the analog outputs. So confirm that you are seeing letterbox after transfer.

Cam 1 and 2 are DV "wide" mode (no HDV)
Cam 3 is 4x3 but with black bars recorded on the image (maybe letterbox is not the right term but the bars are definively there)
Curiously when I open the file in Windows Media Player the image gets enlongated INCLUDING the black bars and the characters look wide (distorted), other media players show the image correctly (but with the black bars)

It could be the GS-200 is just lacking the wide flag. In Premiere, right click on the GS200 clips on the timeline and make sure the properties show 16x9 wide aspect.

I captured in Premiere as standard DV, the properties show 720x480 frame size and 0.900 pixel ratio.

If you are stuck with letterbox, any conversion will soften resolution vs. the other cameras. I would have used the good cams for the wide cover shots and the GS-200 for tight shots. Then you could have creatively used the lower res tight shots as a size reduced overlay rather than as a full screen shot.

humm..I kind of did it the other way around, I kept the GS200 recording a long shot, behind the public right on the center and the other cams on the sides, closer to the stage (as 1 & 3 cams in a studio setup) getting closer shots, panning and zooming with the action), my reasoning was that if I had any problems (like those we are talking about here) like a softened (even blurried) image it´d be harder for the DVD viewers to notice them.
jagabo

julitomg wrote:
1) load the 4/3 file in Virtualdub
2) crop and resize (crop 30 px from top and bottom each to get a 720X360 file and then resize back to 720X480)
3) save as avi using lagarith or Huffyuv lossless

That's the basic idea but VirtualDub won't give you the best interlaced resizing.

1) The resize filter has an interlaced option. I think internally it does the same as unfold fields side by side, resize, fold side by side fields together. This generates ringing artifacts on sharp horizontal edges.

2) You can try using Crop, Deinterlace Yadif with double frame rate, resize, then interlace again. That will alleviate ringing on sharp horizontal edges. But Yadif sometimes doesn't do a good job of deinterlacing. You may end up with more objectionable artifacts than the first method.

3) The best would be to do your filtering in AviSynth using TempGaussMC_beta() to bob deinterlace, resizing, SeparateFields(), SelectEvery(), and Weave():

Code:
AVISource("DVi.AVI")
Crop(0,60,720,360)
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true) #if necessary
TempGaussMC_beta1()
BilinearResize(720,480) #or other resize filter
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)
Weave()
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)


Notes:

I convert to YUY2 in the end because many programs don't handle interlaced YV12 properly.

I cropped first then deinterlaced because it's faster. But you might get better results deinterlacing first, then cropping. The motion vector analysis of TempGauss will work better.

I´m one of those afreaid of aviSynth and scripting but I´ll give it a try a do some tests (it´s about time to learn how and as we say around here, you´ve got to hold the bull by the horns )
aedipuss

i don't know. even if you go to the trouble of removing the bars, the par is still going to be wrong. the DVavi widescreen videos will have an aspect ratio of 1.2121 and the cropped gs200 will be at 0.9191. i might skip the bar removal and just pan and scan the gs200 footage in the editor.


for future reference if you had shot the gs200 in "slim" mode it wouldn't have the bars in the video.

Ok, I admit I ws in a hurry and may have overlooked the "slim" mode within the camera´s menus, I´ll keep that in mind. And yes, I think I can adjust the image within Premiere, I have done it before but was never too happy with the results (I only have the old 6.5 version, maybe the newer Pro and CS ones are better in that aspect but right now I just can´t afford to upgrade)
jagabo

If he crops and resizes and sets the PAR to 40:33 it will display properly. If he can't force the PAR in the file he can override the source PAR in the editor. The only issues whether he can live with the blur and artifacts.

Indeed..I think I´ll make more tests than I had Thought So far I see three basic options and in few words these would be: 1) The Procoder way, 2) The Virtualdub and/or aviSynth way and 3) The premiere way
Ok, lets see how this turns out

[edDV]

Maybe best to post a representative frame from the GS200.