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  1. Banned
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    Originally Posted by JohnnyBob
    Noahtuk
    No, that would be you....

    What makes you think you are so correct and everybody else is wrong ??

    What makes you think you are right, when you are 1%, out of 1000's of people, that have used Verbatim DL MIS with bad results. while all the other 1000's have had no issues what so ever, and you are the one that is correct and that MIS DL+R's are the fault and questionable quality ??



    Get over yourself......

    There are so may more variables to consider which you obviously have not.....

  2. Reason I stick to LG burners is a historic liking for dvd+R booktyping,,making them work on most friends dvd players,,but I think modern dvd players (last 2 years or so) will all play dvd-r so book typing not as crucial.

    Which burners (not sata) would be recommended ?
    PAL/NTSC problem solver.
    USED TO BE A UK Equipment owner., NOW FINISHED WITH VHS CONVERSIONS-THANKS

  3. Renegade gll99's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by victoriabears
    Reason I stick to LG burners is a historic liking for dvd+R booktyping,,making them work on most friends dvd players,,but I think modern dvd players (last 2 years or so) will all play dvd-r so book typing not as crucial.

    Which burners (not sata) would be recommended ?
    I have an older 16x LG also that bitsets DVD+R which I bought for the same reason but I also had to keep an old NEC around because it also does the DVD+RW which my LG won't.

    I am now using a Lite-on on my other system because it bitsets both +R and +RW. Mine is sata and I don't know if they still have ide models but it would be worth checking that brand if bitsetting is important to you. My sata Lite-on seems to auto adjust its speed for a perfect burn because I've yet to get a coaster with it using Verbatim 16x media although they might sometimes take a minute or 2 more to burn than the selected 16x speed.
    There's not much to do but then I can't do much anyway.

  4. DVD Ninja budz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by victoriabears
    Reason I stick to LG burners is a historic liking for dvd+R booktyping,,making them work on most friends dvd players,,but I think modern dvd players (last 2 years or so) will all play dvd-r so book typing not as crucial.

    Which burners (not sata) would be recommended ?
    Samsung 22x IDE dvd burner, $34.99 Canada
    http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827151175

    Strange that CA newegg doesn't carry any LG drives.

  5. ...C O P Y L E F T JohnnyBob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Noahtuck
    Originally Posted by JohnnyBob
    Noahtuk
    No, that would be you....

    What makes you think you are so correct and everybody else is wrong ??

    What makes you think you are right, when you are 1%, out of 1000's of people, that have used Verbatim DL MIS with bad results. while all the other 1000's have had no issues what so ever, and you are the one that is correct and that MIS DL+R's are the fault and questionable quality ??



    Get over yourself......

    There are so may more variables to consider which you obviously have not.....
    It sounds like you work for Verbatim.
    But what makes you think you have a right to make personal attacks like this?
    I'm not sure why, but you've been doing this for awhile.
    Where's the moderator???

  6. ...C O P Y L E F T JohnnyBob's Avatar
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    I just checked and these deals are still on for today. I wasn't sure. I'm not sure if I'll do this again because it seems that quite a few object or don't appreciate knowing about such deals. Lots of whining and bickering. I thought somebody might appreciate the info, but so far nobody has said thanks. Time to move on...

  7. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JohnnyBob
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    How? Wrong drives, wrong speeds, wrong tests (PIF/PIE/PI/PO), dirty discs, unclean environment....
    Optical media has been around for decades. The old "there's no way to know" line is all myth, perpetuated in online forums. There is plenty of data out there, which lets us arrive at conclusions that discs will lasts several decades minimum, up to a century under optimum conditions.
    wrong drives? - we use whatever we have available, and perhaps get a new one every year or two
    wrong speeds? - we try whatever's available from the firmware, then test the results
    wrong tests (PIF/PIE/PI/PO)? - that's the only way to evaluate burn quality precisely (CD/DVDSpeed)
    dirty discs? - that's easily avoidable, use cases or envelopes and handle by the edges/centerhub
    unclean environment? - houses aren' t scientific clean rooms, and there's no way to stop dandruff
    So I don't believe there's anything wrong with how most users probably approach and perform these tests. They do the best they can with what they've got, because there's no other way. So why characterize them as wrong?
    However if that's the wrong way, what's the right way, in your opinion?
    You acknowledge the issues, but still "don't believe there's anything wrong" ?

    The prosecution rests, your honor. You just illustrated my point entirely. The silly consumer idea of "good enough" just doesn't fly when it comes to media testing. The issues I mentioned skew results so badly that you may as well not even bother testing.

    I don't have the time to teach media 101 right now. You can start with some reading at this site, and follow up by various online posts from myself and Budz here, and Flash/Flashman and Francksoy/Wizzu elsewhere online.
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  8. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    @JB
    Thanks for the head's up on the Verbatim sale.

    @victoria
    2007-2009 Samsung models and 2006-2008 Pioneer models. I never pay more than maybe $25-30 for my drives. Fry's, Microcenter, Amazon.
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  9. Thanks LS, hope all is well with you.

    Oh and a very happy holiday season to all the Videohelpers, great hobby and a lot of fun.
    PAL/NTSC problem solver.
    USED TO BE A UK Equipment owner., NOW FINISHED WITH VHS CONVERSIONS-THANKS

  10. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Up there in maple leaf country, check out ncix, ca.buy.com and newegg.ca
    -- I think blankmedia.ca sells drives, too.

    Good to see you around still, VB.
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  11. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LCSHG
    Seeker7
    Well Yes And NO but you have given me an answer for still using a Zip Drive
    Dang these New Fangled Gagets but I still have some VHS tapes that go way,way back and they are in very good condition and play ok
    The resolution is not to good but Never Was
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Cute. But image quality (or up-to-date tech) wasn't the issue here, only a proven track record
    for longevity. And, btw, Zip is Bernoulli, which might outlast everything that's come along since the floppy (in terms of data recovery), with the possible exception of magneto-optical. Again, I'm not talking about the particular application. And it will all be moot at some point, since each reading / playing device (hardware) tends to become obsolete and / or gets very scarce / non-repairable well before the recorded media (and perhaps the people who recorded it) disappears. But, tell you what: play a lot of those DVDs in another 10 and then 20 years, and get back to me. Time will tell.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.

  12. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Seeker47
    reading / playing device (hardware) tends to become obsolete and / or gets very scarce / non-repairable well before the recorded media
    YES! YES! YES! YES! 8)
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  13. Seeker47 --- Wrote

    Cute. But image quality (or up-to-date tech) wasn't the issue here, only a proven track record for longevity. And, btw, Zip is Bernoulli, which might outlast everything that's come along since the floppy (in terms of data recovery), with the possible exception of magneto-optical. Again, I'm not talking about the particular application. And it will all be moot at some point, since each reading / playing device (hardware) tends to become obsolete and / or gets very scarce / non-repairable well before the recorded media (and perhaps the people who recorded it) disappears. But, tell you what: play a lot of those DVDs in another 10 and then 20 years, and get back to me. Time will tell.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------


    [Cute] Well Thank you

    But I thought the original post was an alert for specials from Newegg and than went to proven track record and some other issues. Newegg has been a good vender they are not always the lowest price but very much in the ballpark
    In Know Zip is Bernoulli and is why I still use it. Very reliable media but a bad drive can ruin a disk and is also why I always have 2 of anything importent I do have 3 zip drives , New in the bag and 2 portable drives.I had used them a lot .
    At Present I have Two dual core desktops using vista 32 bit I’m thinking of upgrading at least one to Windows7. I do have one older unit that had XP but now has Win98
    AS I said I will go through my Ridata disks and check. The price of the Ridata and Verbatim is not an issue. I still feel the Ridata Disks [that are ok] Will be ok many years from now. Again [Lordsmurf ] feels reliableity and longevity is an issue with the Ridata. FOR me also. I will go back to Verbatim

    I would most likely and hopefully play those DVD’s often in the Next 20years
    I’m 80 now and when I call you in 20 years, I sincerely hope you are still around..



    EDIT
    [lordsmurf] --- Sorry about the lordberg spelling how I did that I don't know Could be OPERATOR ERROR.
    I could have done that with the Ridata Disk ????

  14. ...C O P Y L E F T JohnnyBob's Avatar
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    To followup...

    Received my discs from Newegg and tested them. The 16x Verbatim DVD-R single layer are excellent quality. However the 8x Verbatim DL DVD+R aren't good quality, not like any I've ordered before. These have high broad PIF bands on the 2nd layer, and quality scores around 50%. I've asked Newegg to accept their return for a refund, but haven't heard back yet.

    Which all goes to prove that Verbatim is no longer a reliable brand. It's like shooting craps. I may give up disc backups entirely and switch to portable external drives. I believe Staples had a 1TB external USB drive recently for something like $69 US. That's cheaper than discs and less hassel. If I do so, then I'll have to give up my standalone DVD players too and switch to an entirely computer-controlled video system. Maybe that's just as well.

  15. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JohnnyBob
    These have high broad PIF bands on the 2nd layer, and quality scores around 50%. .........goes to prove that Verbatim is no longer a reliable brand.
    Sorry, but that's just not proof of anything. Your testing methodology is flawed.
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  16. Rancid User ron spencer's Avatar
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    people are FAR to fixated with speed....I use verbatim myself, however, I have used "off-brands" before....I have NEVER burned anything other than 4x or 8x. If I get some cheapo brands, never faster than 4x. Rest are 8x....never a bad burn...
    'Do I look absolutely divine and regal, and yet at the same time very pretty and rather accessible?' - Queenie

  17. ...C O P Y L E F T JohnnyBob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Originally Posted by JohnnyBob
    These have high broad PIF bands on the 2nd layer, and quality scores around 50%. .........goes to prove that Verbatim is no longer a reliable brand.
    Sorry, but that's just not proof of anything. Your testing methodology is flawed.
    I disagree. There's nothing wrong with my methodology or testing with DiscSpeed, although I'm aware of your prejudice against. You frequently make such anti-DiscSpeed claims but without documentation in support. My quality scans are good evidence that buying DL Verbatims is like shooting craps. You never know what you'll get because they have no quality control.


  18. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    As has been proven over and over again, these tests are often more a statement about the drive or environment, rather than the disc itself.
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  19. ...C O P Y L E F T JohnnyBob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    As has been proven over and over again, these tests are often more a statement about the drive or environment, rather than the disc itself.
    Another global, unfounded anti-DiscSpeed claim. References?

    What's significant is comparative results with the same burner and many different batches of the same or similar kinds of disc. In this case I've used a LG-H55N drive to burn hundreds of MKM001 (both MIS and MII) and MKM003 (from several different batches). Clearly this last batch of MKM003 from Newegg during their Black Friday special is inferior to prior batches due to high broad PIF bands on the 2nd layer and low quality scores. That indicates disc imperfections/faults. It could indicate pieces of dandruff on the disc too, but not over many discs. It could indicate a worn out drive, yet mine continues to burn other prior batches of MKM003 just fine. I can publish more comparative scans in support, or you can take my word for it.

  20. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    My reference is myself. I've burned and tested at least 10x more discs than you have (minimum!), for many more years than you've been doing it, and in multiple locations (different climates, etc). This kind of testing has some use, but only minimally. To use it as an end-all, be-all test of disc quality is flawed.
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  21. ...C O P Y L E F T JohnnyBob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    My reference is myself. I've burned and tested at least 10x more discs than you have (minimum!), for many more years than you've been doing it, and in multiple locations (different climates, etc). This kind of testing has some use, but only minimally. To use it as an end-all, be-all test of disc quality is flawed.
    Not a verifiable reference, sorry, purely anecdotal. I don't buy it. My opinion and experience is as good as yours in this matter.

  22. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Not even close. Not purely anecdotal, either. This has become a brick wall conversation, I'm done here. You're clearly not interested in actually learning anything. Have a good day.
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  23. ...C O P Y L E F T JohnnyBob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Not even close. Not purely anecdotal, either. This has become a brick wall conversation, I'm done here. You're clearly not interested in actually learning anything. Have a good day.
    I respectfully disagree, but have a good day.

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    I thought the subject of "media quality scans" with consumer equipment was adequately discussed (approaching two years ago) in this thread. However, there still seems to be some confusion on the topic, which I hope I can help clear up.

    A key consideration is the difference between the drives we all use (consumer grade) and the drives used in the very expensive test equipment necessary for scientific analysis of media (reference grade).

    Consumer grade drives are just that. They are designed to let consumers read and write optical media with confidence, while using components which are as cost-effective as possible. The goal is to make the drives as inexpensively as possible (to stay competitive in the marketplace) without compromising consumer trust in the system.

    Reference grade drives, on the other hand, are designed for use in real test equipment, as used by the government and corporations to analyze optical media. Unlike consumer grade drives, the goal with reference drives is to minimize the variables (as much as possible), use components specifically designed to eliminate known problems (once again, as much as possible), and provide the best accuracy which can realistically be achieved...with considerably less regard for the cost.

    A true assessment of media quality cannot be arrived at by using consumer grade equipment for the testing. If there was any way to do so, companies like Datarius and AudioDev would be unable to find a market for their very expensive test equipment (which use reference grade drives and much more).

    Datarius has white papers available on their website for anyone who is interested in more details. A good one to start with is "Demystifying the Drive" (available here). AudioDev also has reference material freely available on their website.

    If someone wants to use "media quality tests" (as performed by consumer equipment) as an aid to help them estimate (or visualize) how well a certain type of media is likely to perform on their specific system, that's fine...at least as long as they understand the inherent limitations, and don't make the jump to believing that their "testing" necessarily has much (if any) relevance to someone using the same media on a different system (or even on the original "test bed" system, if the drive or firmware are changed).

    As a general guideline, the vast majority of people seem to have good results with Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim media, which is also my experience. For dual layer media, I completely agree with jman98 when he said (much earlier in this thread):
    ...there really is no alternative in the USA to Verbatim for DL media...

  25. ...C O P Y L E F T JohnnyBob's Avatar
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    CD/DVDSpeed does just fine with quality scans on Lite-On and other compatible drives, IMHO. Of course it requires some experience with interpretation but most people can get the hang of it fairly soon. The theory is pretty simple, the lower the PIE and PIF, the better the quality of the burn. That's a function of the media quality, primarily. Good quality media are (by definition) reasonably uniform from year to year, country to country, manufacturing plant to manufacturing plant, batch to batch, spindle to spindle, and disc to disc. If there are independent scientific laboratories performing such tests, I'm sure we would all welcome references to their published results so we can compare them with our own.

  26. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Be prepared to sign a NDA and pay a lot of money.
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  27. ...C O P Y L E F T JohnnyBob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Be prepared to sign a NDA and pay a lot of money.
    Not a chance, wouldn't be worth a penny to me. Private unpublished testing is unverifiable. Any conclusions based on it are anecdotal. Only info published freely, open to public scrutiny and criticism, has much scientific value.

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    JohnnyBob,

    At least for now, I'm going to assume that you're just not understanding what I'm saying. To be honest, though, I don't see how that's possible if you actually read any of the material I referred you to, both in this thread, and in the prior thread.

    PIE/PIF represent read errors/failures as reported by the drive, as the error correction is being applied by the drive. They don't tell you anything about why the read errors/failures occurred...just how much difficulty the drive used for "testing" had in reading the disk.

    ...the lower the PIE and PIF, the better the quality of the burn. That's a function of the media quality, primarily.
    Once again, PIE/PIF only tell how much difficulty the "test" drive had reading the disk. It tells you absolutely nothing about why there was a problem. Was it a problem with the drive used to burn the test disk? If so, what was the problem? Was it an alignment problem? Was it incorrect laser power? Was it the firmware? Was tilt a problem? Was it a problem with the media? If so, what was the problem? Is it in the dye layer? Was it a reflectivity problem? Was the problem the drive used to read the disk? If so, what was the source of the read problem?

    The list of possible causes goes on and on, but none of the questions can be answered because all you have is PIE/PIF approximations. Why are they approximations? That would be because the consumer grade drive being used is incapable of more accuracy.

    It gets even worse...have you ever run a "quality test" repeatedly on the same test disk? If you have, you should have noticed that the results aren't the same. The disk certainly didn't change between tests, so why do the results vary for the exact same drive? That's also because the consumer grade drive being used is incapable of more accuracy, which is manifesting as lack of consistency. That isn't just my own personal experience. Take a look at this page at the myce website (formerly known as cdfreaks, the motherland of consumer "quality scans"), where you'll see that five scans of the same disk (on the same drive), using four different make/model drives, did not produce the same results, taking the drives separately, or between drives.

    The only way to determine the quality of media by "testing" is to use very expensive equipment, and have specially trained personnel interpret the raw results of the test.

    If there are independent scientific laboratories performing such tests, I'm sure we would all welcome references to their published results so we can compare them with our own.
    That's just not going to happen. It would cost a fortune to even take a snapshot of the interaction of all media, all drives, and all firmware at a given moment in time. To maintain a constantly up to date reference is just not financially feasible...unless you can convince Bill Gates to foot the bill. Good luck on that.

  29. ...C O P Y L E F T JohnnyBob's Avatar
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    Do you work for Verbatim? Why do you feel compelled to try to change my opinion? You can't, so just forget it! I use DVD/CDSpeed to evaluate media quality and believe it's reliable. I will continue to do so. Period! End of story...but you can have the last word, if you wish.




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