Possible solution to the Audio Sync Problem

[AlterEcho]

I think I have finally figured this problem out. I was having an audio sync problem. I started out basically using SEFY's guide. I used the following programs: Smartripper, DVD2AVI, TMPGEnc and Nero. My DVD ripped, served and encoded fine. The burn went also went well (make sure to use the newest NERO if you want FF in SVCD). But after a few minutes the audio started to lag very badly. So I tried everyone's RIP guides, from SEFY to LLAMA. None would rectify the sync problem. I even tried DEMUX and split with BBMPG and encoding with this same program. I also tried the newest TMPGEnc (version 2.5...I think)and two versions of DVD2AVI. Also I tried different OS's (NT, 2000, and XP).

Then it dawned on me. The difference between regular NTSC and film and the frame conversion. So instead I turned the "force film" off in DVD2AVI. Even though the preview said film (percent rate was greater than 95) and the frame rate is at 29 fps (NTSC). Once DVD2AVI was finished I encoded in TMPGEnc. But here is the important part. I used the NTSC template and did not....I repeat...did not use "inverse telecine". I also used DVDRIPGUIDES.COM's SVCD templates. So in a nutshell, I followed the above's rip guide...I just didn't "force film" and I didn't use "inverse telecine". This fixed my audio sync problem from begining to end. Last note.....keep both versions of DVD2AVI around (1.76 and 1.85). I found that sometimes I would have to use 1.76 because TMPGEnc would scream "unsupported file" when browsing to the *.d2v file. Once I used the older DVD2AVI frame serving it would allow the encoding.

This will probably work for VCD also.......

*Update* SEFY pointed something to me which I had missed. Do not use the "force film" option if the movie is NTSC (29 fps). Thanks again SEFY!

[Sefy]

Glad to be of help! keep up the good work

[oberkfell]

I'm going to uncheck the force film and see if this works. I don't know why but lately my files have become out of sync.

Some people say you have to select force film in order for the final product to be encoded properly.

When am I suppose to select force film?

[Sefy]

I don't know who tells you that, but for example, don't use Force Film on PAL, personaly, I don't use Force Film on any movie i've done so far, and i've not had a single A/V sync problem from a DVD rip!

You are supposed to do (not HAVE to do) a Force Film on movies that specificly use the NTSC Film standard and are detected as 23.976.

[oberkfell]

Sefy:

When you deselect Force Film, do you still use the NTSC FILM template in TMPGenc? Does it really matter if you use either template. I have used both, not knowing what they were, and they turn out fine.

[Sefy]

I've only used the NTSC Film Template once, I did not like the quality, so I stopped using it, I find no reason to reduce the Frame Rate to a 23.976 when the movie is going to be displayed ANYWAY in 29.976.

I'm not saying i'm doing the correct thing, i'm saying for ME it works, i'm sure someone else will come and tell you i'm all wrong and that you must enable it and for whatever reason it may be.

I'm saying that for ME, I don't use Force Film and I don't use the Film Template.

[oberkfell]

Sefy:

Sure enough, I turned forced film off and all is in sync.

Thanks

[Sefy]

I'm glad to have been of some help to you
Atleast it shows my stubborness works sometimes for other people too

[alanwong]

I have tried your method but I noticed there were too many horizontal lines in the movie so I turned on the Even Field Deinterlaced but I got outof sync problem at the end of the encoding process. I'm using Smartripper, DVD2AVI(Force Film Off), TMPGenc253.

Pls help.

[Sefy]

I apologise for the late reply, as for your problem, can you give me all the details regarding the movie you are trying to copy ?

[sean madison]

when u turn off force film, u WILL have interlace problems but i know how to fix that now!!!

De-interlace (and it is imposible to unsync ur movie)

De-interlace- even field adaptation this option shows no visible diference in preview window but in encoding, ur interlace free!

[Sefy]

Sean, I never use Force Film, explain why I never had Interlacing problem on any of my 90 movies so far ?

[sean madison]

u havent? probably cuz, just guessing, u use vcd instead of svcd

Now, u may also inverse telecine, i dont go out and do all that if thats what u do.

[Sefy]

It's common knowledge on the forums that I prefer doing VCD's, and also the guys in this post are doing a VCD, as i've not need anyone mention a SVCD, so is your advice still valid for VCD's ?

PS: No, I don't do Inverse Telecine either, I use plain and simple VCD NTSC.

[adam]

People just do a search on this forum for forced film it has been explained dozens of times. Using forced film itself should not cause audio sync problems if you use it correctly. The problem probably lies with your dvd player's inability to telecine the video properly, causing desync. However there are known audio problems with dvd2avi. If your vobs were not ripped in movie mode in smartripper than often your audio will be out of sync, and even if they were ripped correctly dvd2avi still often results in sync problems. You should use dvd2avi to frameserve but you should use another program to extract and process your audio. Check the audio guides at www.doom9.net for other methods.

Using forced film and encoding in 23.976 as opposed to 29.97fps saves you %20 more bitrate and at (s)vcd bitrate, that literally translates to
%20 more quality.

Unless your dvd player has problems telecining an ntscfilm encoded
(s)vcd (23.976fps) than there is absolutely no reason not to use the forced flim option in dvd2avi.

Sefy if your not using the forced film option when making vcds then your not only wasting %20 of your bitrate but you are also only keeping every other field, effectively losing half of the movie. You should really look into using forced film if your dvd player can handle it, which most can.

If your source is dvd then I really can't think of many instances where you would ever want to use deinterlacing filters, except maybe on some problematic anime. There are much higher quality method of eliminating interlacing artifacts ie: forced film, IVTC, leaving it interlaced.

[oberkfell]

The audio sync problem was both on my computer and standalone dvd player. Maybe it was the previous (2) DVDs I encoded. I just turn the force film off now. I see no difference, except audio is in sync.

[Sefy]

adam, i've not used, and don't plan on using Force Film, i've used it for a couple of times, and like many others had nothing but trouble with it, and not to mention A/V Sync problems, which I never had with regular NTSC.

Also, if i'm gaining or losing quality, i've not noticed a single change in the same movie when using or not using Force Film, i'm satisified with the results i'm getting from regular NTSC.

[sean madison]

and there lies the exact answer i would say that sefy said.

We see no difference in quality. Technically it may be true but if it is so small of a change, we are not going to see it.

[adam]

To sean and sefy,

A %20 increase in quality is far from a small change. %20 is huge! Thats a fifth of your movie, thats like only having to encode 80 mins instead of 100 mins.

I would think that encoding in 23.976 would cause noticable improvement in any encode if your bitrates are as low as they are ie >3mbits, but even if you don't see a difference, besides the fact that it is there, that doesnt mean ntscfilm isnt worth using for you.

I find it kinda ironic that both of you have developed and distributed templates for encoding low bitrate (s)vcds (basically try to fit as much movie time on a single cdr in acceptable quality), yet choose to ignore the benfits of ntscfilm; THE single easiest way to fit substantially more movie time on a cdr. Even if you don't notice the increase in bitrate, you can simply encode in ntscfilm with a %20 lower bitrate. Your filesize will be %20 smaller and the quality will literally be the same. How does an extra %20 of movie sound?

Sefy like I said before, if used correctly forced film does not cause sync problems. By eliminating the interlaced frames, using forced film should actually make your encodes less problematic. I can totally understand the, "if it's not broke don't fix it mentality" but there is really no reason not to use forced film, where applicable, unless your dvd player can't handle it, which usually isnt the case. %99 of all dvds released use pulldown flags, why shouldn't you?

[sean madison]

adam,

I had to encode Office space 6 times! and on the 6th time, i finally got it in sync.

Cuz the first 5 times, i have ripped then used dvd2avi with force film enabled.

Some other post was having same problem as me and someone told someone else not to use force film and like sefy has said, dont use force film unless movie is playing strictly 23.976 w\o 3:2 pulldown.

Now, i did not use force film and office space came out perfect, so it's either force film is bad, or dvd2avi v 1.76 has a glitch.

Even if the force film does make it %20 smaller in size, which i'm not saying ur lyin, there is a bad thing about that i have noticed about AVI dvd rips

Since u gotta use the wav stripped out of the avi as the source audio file, the last few seconds of the encoded movie in tmgpenc, the program cuts the audio out!

Whereas, if its encoded straight 29.97, its fine. It stays in sync all the way thru but the last few seconds is just cut out.

[Sefy]

Adam, there are more people reporting problems with NTSC Film then for those who use regular NTSC, my personal reason is i've seen alot of movies that were done in Film mode and the entire movement stuttered in my view.

More Frames is better and cleaner movement in my opinion, I could be wrong and you can prove me wrong, but that is my opinion, and i've not had a single problem with regular NTSC, only with Film, and not just for me, but for alot of people.

So weather it is good or not, that's for everyone's choice, i'm sticking to the fully compatible and non-problematic NTSC.

[vince]

I have to agree with Adam. Using NTSC Film does give noticeable better quality. I always had problem with forced film, it is not the fault of NTSC Film. I do not use forced film in DVD2AVI, I think there is a bug in this program. However, I do perform IVTC for every single NTSC movie and the quality is great. It takes an extra hour to do IVTC, but it is worth. I also noticed that I have to choose correct field order before IVTC to get the best result.

Thanks,

[Sefy]

I've not seen a quality improvment, so either those 20% are non-visible, and besides, it's just VCD, how much can you boost quality and stay in standard! lets face it, those who want quality go to X formats or SVCD.

And all this extra time and extra settings and optimization, personaly it's not worth it for me, maybe for others, but not for me.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not disaggering with adam or ditching what he says, I take his word on the quality and everything, but for me personaly, it's just trouble I don't want to get involved in.

[amjm]

I Had Audio Sync problem, I followed an advice on this Forum (not this thread) and think I fix it.

I like my CD images with chapters every 5 minutes and I dont have ABC Alias here so I download the image from alt.binaries.multimedia.alias extract the SVCD file from the image using the virtual CD Daemon tool and with TMPGEnc tools I selected all the mpgs and join them into one but I was GETTING Audio Sync problems.

I asked my self why a Sync file get unsync someone wrote that it may be the Ligos Codec and indicated that the best way to uninstalled it compeatly is with DXman at http://www.analogx.com/contents/download/audio/dxman.htm I looked further with GRAPHEDIT and realize that the Mpeg was using the Morgan Codec (http://www.morgan-multimedia.com) to play back the Video so I did a test and using DXMAN UNINSTALLED the Morgan Codec and my problem was solved.

There is still a GX400 and a Bicubic resizer on the video Stream that I could uninstall it probably.

I had Audio Sync problems with DIVX5 too but I havent don any test yet after removing the codec

[adam]

Sean I don't think you understand what forced film is or how to use it correctly. It has nothing to do with divx (what I assume you mean by "avi dvdrips") and absolutely will not work in that way. As I said before I have posted how to use forced film literally dozens of times but I suppose I will do it once more.

Forced film will ONLY work on dvds which store their content in the original 24fps and use RFF/TFF flags to telecine the video to 29.97fps. While this does apply to most dvds there are always exceptions. In order to make sure you are using forced film correctly you need to preview your vobs in dvd2avi and let it get past the opening credits. If it shows
%95 film and stays like that then forced film will work. If not then you must uncheck forced film and either leave it at 29.97fps or do an IVTC.

Dvd2avi has bugs regarding its audio processing. You will need to extract and process your audio using a separate program. Check the audio guides at www.doom9.net and pick the one that you like best.

To all those having sync problems using forced film, dvd2avi very well may have bugs that affect sync when using forced film on certain dvds, however, I am guessing that in most cases sync problems are caused because the person doesnt use the forced film option correctly. I have used forced film on hundreds of dvds and I have never had a single sync problem and most of my svcds have been tested on multiple dvd players.
Simply put, the solution to audio sync problems is to ensure that you are authoring/encoding properly.

More Frames is better and cleaner movement in my opinion, I could be wrong and you can prove me wrong, but that is my opinion, and i've not had a single problem with regular NTSC, only with Film, and not just for me, but for alot of people.

Actually the number of frames is identical. Remember we are dealing with the ntsc standard here, it has to be played at 29.97fps regardless. The difference is that with ntscfilm you only have to encode 23.976fps, which is %20 less. The dvd player will do a telecine of the film as it plays so it will always play at the same speed so using forced film has no effect on movement.

the vcd standard is where ntscfilm is MOST needed. With such a low bitrate limit that extra %20 goes a long way. Also its really irrelavent to mention variations of standards (xvcd and xsvcd) since ntscfilm will have the same benefits there as well. If you want quality yes you should switch to xvcd or svcd but in all cases you should still encode in ntscfilm.

for me personaly, it's just trouble I don't want to get involved in.

Fair enough. Do what works for you, but if you ever do switch to using ntscfilm I think you'll find it worth the extra trouble, especially since all you have to do is click one extra button.

[Sefy]

As i've mentioned, i'm not disaggering or ditching what you are saying, and it's not really "click an extra button" cause most people here who have A/V sync problems is because of NTSC Film, as it is harder to do for some reason and as for quality, I mentioned I did try it, and I did not see any quality boost and I did get the A/V Sync problem as well.

[hitechjunkie]

with all of the templates floatin' around ("160 minutes on one 74min CD-R zero macro-blocks, GUARANTEED!!"), i thought we all had super human, macro-block detecting, artifact discerning, optics in our head.

seriously though, my experience with 23.97fps vs 29.97fps XVCDs has been that if i set the max video bitrate > 1800kbps (CQ_VBR), i can safely play a 23.97fps XVCD on my standalones. everytime i've tried a 23.97fps XVCD with a max of 1350kbps or less (to get the whole movie on one disc), i get video stuttering.

adam, i'm not sure i agree with ur statement about a 23.97fps XVCD being played at 29.97fps anyway. if u encode an 23.97fps MPEG-1 stream, there is no way to turn on "3:2 pulldown on playback", so i would think the player would play the XVCD at its encoded rate of 23.97fps. now MPEG-2 (SVCD!) is a different story.

[adam]

adam, i'm not sure i agree with ur statement about a 23.97fps XVCD being played at 29.97fps anyway. if u encode an 23.97fps MPEG-1 stream, there is no way to turn on "3:2 pulldown on playback", so i would think the player would play the XVCD at its encoded rate of 23.97fps. now MPEG-2 (SVCD!) is a different story.

Hitechjunkie if you check the vcd standards you will see that 23.976fps is a supported framerate, unlike with svcd. This means that according to the standard, any hardware player that plays a vcd encoded at 23.976fps MUST do an autotelecine to 29.97fps. Since 23.976fps is not a supported framerate according to the svcd standard, often a 3:2 pulldown flag is needed to instruct the hardware player to do the telecine.

Its really quite academic. The ntsc standard, which is completely independant from the vcd, svcd, or dvd standards, requires 29.97fps at playback in order to be displayed correctly. If your ntsc encoded film plays correctly on an ntsc tv then it is being played at 29.97fps, period.

[hitechjunkie]

Hitechjunkie if you check the vcd standards you will see that 23.976fps is a supported framerate, unlike with svcd. This means that according to the standard, any hardware player that plays a vcd encoded at 23.976fps MUST do an autotelecine to 29.97fps. Since 23.976fps is not a supported framerate according to the svcd standard, often a 3:2 pulldown flag is needed to instruct the hardware player to do the telecine.

so, if i create a 23.97fps SVCD, but do NOT enable "3:2 pulldown on playback", and burn/load/play that SVCD on my SVCD capable player, will the hardware player output a 23.97fps video stream or a 29.97fps video stream?

[adam]

It depends on the dvd player.

Since ntscfilm is a supported framerate for vcd, all dvd players are supposed to recognize this and do the telecine. With svcd its really at the discretion of the player since its not supported in the standard. Some dvd players will auto telecine any material that is encoded at ntscfilm regardless of whether its a vcd or svcd. In this case you will always get 29.97fps so the 3:2 pulldown flag is really redundant but it doesnt hurt to have it either. I believe that most dvd players, however, are not like this and will not telecine svcds unless instructed to in the form of a 3:2 pulldown flag. In this case the dvd player will output 23.976fps.

Its very easy to notice when your dvd player isnt doing the telecine. Your video will play for a few seconds, jump back a second or two and continue this process throughout the movie, making it unwatchable.