Windows 7 Upgrade Makes Some PCs Unusable

[Jim44]

as a side note, i'm not sure it's technically possible to upgrade from a 32 bit OS to a 64 bit OS regardless of the OS in question, you are correct that it's not possible to upgrade to 64 bit win 7 from a 32 bit OS but i'm also fairly certain that its not possible to do that with any OS, not linux, not unix, not solaris, and not OS X.

It absolutely is possible:

http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/upgrade_02.asp

And, to hopefully put an end to this, please read the last two paragraphs very carefully -> while this doesn't meet *my* (overly?) strict definition of a "clean" install (having the "windows.old" folder left over), this is the route I will be taking with one of my upgrades (the others will be similar, just 32-bit to 32-bit). Having the "windows.old" for a "just in case" situation does seem pragmatic.

Note I'm bowing to pragmatism only - I still think you are wrong in your admonishments about "illegal" and "piracy" regarding the absolute-clean install with upgrade media I referred to earlier.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Dual booting is so 1990s. KVM two systems or virtualize.

That's why I currently pentaboot (one more and I'll be able to wear my sexy boots) and have about four VMs. I also Remote Desktop since running more than 100' of VGA and USB cable is a bit inconvenient. In fact I'm doing so right now.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Any version of Windows Vista can host virtual machines (VMs), whether in Microsoft's Virtual PC solution or a rival product like VMWare Workstation. However, only two retail version of Windows Vista are licensed for use as a guest OS in a VM: Windows Vista Business and Ultimate. (A third--non-retail--Vista version, Vista Enterprise, has different licensing terms, which I'll address in a bit.)

Let that one sink in for a second. You cannot install Windows Vista Home Basic or Home Premium in a virtual machine, at least from a legal standpoint.

are you capable of understanding this or an i just "inventing laws that don't exist" again?

Nice use of Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V. Thurrott goes on to say:

So why "restrict" users like that? Well, as it turns out, there's no massive conspiracy. Currently, the majority of Microsoft's virtualization users fall into exactly two groups: business customers and enthusiasts. Business customers will want Vista Business and enthusiasts will use Vista Ultimate. Simple. And though pundits might like to complain about this apparently arbitrary decision, the reality is that very, very few people can ever come up with a legitimate reason to run, say, Vista Home Basic in a VM. And those that want to, can, if they don't mind violating the Vista EULA and not receiving support.

Selectivity at its best. Good job. Better look up the chronic effects of warfarin exposure.

[Ethlred]

what the f are you talking about?

Legality. Which you don't understand.

At all.

A license is in no way a law.

If you break a law you can be imprisoned or fined by a government.

If you break a license the Licensor must sue the Licensee. In this case the Licensor is Microsoft and they have yet to enforce YOUR interpretation of the license. They haven't even told Paul to remove it from his site.

taken right from his website, on the page where he talks about doing a clean install using Vista upgrade media:

Yes, right from Paul's site, and it has been there since Vista was released.

Microsoft has NEVER even hinted that he should take it down. Nor SUED, much less prosecuted, him for actually doing it, as he clearly states he tested it.

It isn't a law so it isn't illegal. And MS hasn't enforced it even if they think your interpretation is the correct one.

Proceed at your own risk.

Yes, as I said that was over two and half years ago. Its still there. There is no risk nor a law.

now using your, and a few other's, argument i could justify using a crack to bypass windows activation,

Learn how to read. I never said anything resembling that.

I said that if you OWN the qualifying product AS STATED ON THE BOX, you have the right to purchase the upgrade product. If you have the right of purchase then it is STRONGLY implied that you have right to use it.

are you capable of understanding this or an i just "inventing laws that don't exist" again?

Yes, to both.

Learn what a law is vs. a license.

Again the cops enforce laws. Companies TRY to enforce licenses. Sometimes.

Ethelred

[deadrats]

what the f are you talking about?

Legality. Which you don't understand.

At all.

A license is in no way a law.

If you break a law you can be imprisoned or fined by a government.

If you break a license the Licensor must sue the Licensee. In this case the Licensor is Microsoft and they have yet to enforce YOUR interpretation of the license. They haven't even told Paul to remove it from his site.

taken right from his website, on the page where he talks about doing a clean install using Vista upgrade media:

Yes, right from Paul's site, and it has been there since Vista was released.

Microsoft has NEVER even hinted that he should take it down. Nor SUED, much less prosecuted, him for actually doing it, as he clearly states he tested it.

It isn't a law so it isn't illegal. And MS hasn't enforced it even if they think your interpretation is the correct one.

Proceed at your own risk.

Yes, as I said that was over two and half years ago. Its still there. There is no risk nor a law.

now using your, and a few other's, argument i could justify using a crack to bypass windows activation,

Learn how to read. I never said anything resembling that.

I said that if you OWN the qualifying product AS STATED ON THE BOX, you have the right to purchase the upgrade product. If you have the right of purchase then it is STRONGLY implied that you have right to use it.

are you capable of understanding this or an i just "inventing laws that don't exist" again?

Yes, to both.

Learn what a law is vs. a license.

Again the cops enforce laws. Companies TRY to enforce licenses. Sometimes.

Ethelred

you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you? software licenses are the law, it's the software license that determines what you are legally permitted to do. when the FBI, or any other law enforcement agency, shuts down a software piracy operation, what crime are the defendants accused of committing?

there is no law on the books that says you can't pirate microsoft's or apple's software, there's no law on the books that says you can't use a crack, just as there is no law that says you can legally make as many copies of linux or freebsd as you like, its the respective software licenses they are distributed under that dictates how you are legally allowed to use the software.

with regards to breaking a law, the possible consequences are determined by the nature of the crime you commit, the prosecutor has the sole discretion to bring a criminal action, and for certain offenses the penalty can be both a criminal proceeding and a civil proceeding brought by the state or the federal government.

for certain criminal offense the only potential penalty is a civil proceeding brought by the attorney general office of the respective state or federal government.

furthermore certain agency rules have the weight of law, for example OSHA rules or board of health regulations, are not codified in law per se, however there is language that says their rules must be obeyed and that said agencies have the right to enforce their rules.

in a similar vein, the labels on chemicals are the law, there is no law per se, codified in EPA regulations, that says i can't apply carbaryl on a mattresses, for the treatment of bed bugs, in the state of ny, the label (which can be thought of as a chemical license that spells out permitted uses), explicitly places restriction on which locations can be applied and by what individuals, thus the label is the law.

software licenses function the same way.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Software licenses are essentially a contract between the Licensor and the Licensee. Any violation of the license by either party can be resolved either out of court or in a CIVIL court. Such courts do not deal with criminal (i.e., illegal) acts. They deal with breaches of contract. They cannot award punitive damages. Criminal action applies when the contract has clauses that are in themselves illegal such as "if you install the software on more than one computer then we will take your spouse hostage". If kidnapping is illegal in the jurisdiction specified by the contract then the contract is void. Where criminal action is alleged to have occurred between Licensor and Licensee then criminal charges can be brought against the victim of the alleged crime. Sadly, most individuals cannot afford to bring a civil suit against the other party due to the insane requirement that even if the plaintiff wins then have to pay court costs. Been there, done that.

To summarize, you are wrong (though your commentary on OSHA and labeling is correct where the illegal use is codified. If I choose to inhale toluene vapors near a candle then I am at liberty to do so even if the label carries the appropriate warning signs but my Hazmat training prevents such stupidity on my part).

[deadrats]

Software licenses are essentially a contract between the Licensor and the Licensee. Any violation of the license by either party can be resolved either out of court or in a CIVIL court. Such courts do not deal with criminal (i.e., illegal) acts. They deal with breaches of contract. They cannot award punitive damages. Criminal action applies when the contract has clauses that are in themselves illegal such as "if you install the software on more than one computer then we will take your spouse hostage". If kidnapping is illegal in the jurisdiction specified by the contract then the contract is void. Where criminal action is alleged to have occurred between Licensor and Licensee then criminal charges can be brought against the victim of the alleged crime. Sadly, most individuals cannot afford to bring a civil suit against the other party due to the insane requirement that even if the plaintiff wins then have to pay court costs. Been there, done that.

you guys are about 12 years behind the times:

Prior to the enactment of the NET Act in 1997, copyright infringement for a non-commercial purpose was apparently not punishable by criminal prosecution, although non-commercial infringers could be sued in a civil action by the copyright holder to recover damages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

Copyright infringement (or copyright violation) is the unauthorized use of material that is covered by copyright law, in a manner that violates one of the copyright owner's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NET_Act

The United States No Electronic Theft Act (NET Act), a federal law passed in 1997, provides for criminal prosecution of individuals who engage in copyright infringement, even when there is no monetary profit or commercial benefit from the infringement. Maximum penalties can be five years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines. The NET Act also raised statutory damages by 50%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act

violating the software license is a criminal offense, its as simple as that.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Oh dear, oh dear.

When you quote Wikipedia you really should read the references. Go and read the NET Act and show me where is says that you can't install Windows 7 in the way described by Jim44. This is all I've been talking about - I have not been talking about piracy. But if I were then the NET Act would not permit criminal prosecution if I made a copy of the install disk and gave it to a friend. The Licensor would have to resort to civil action if it wanted to get a court judgement.

To reiterate, I have only been talking about using an upgrade disk for a clean install. It is not illegal because it does not infringe copyright. Even if it did, you would not meet the minimum retail value required for prosecution.

Next...

[Ethlred]

Give up Deadrats.

All you have to do is admit that you are wrong and you stop looking like a stubborn troll.

Then you look like a reasonable. Logical. WISE.

If you just keep repeating nonsense you will continue to look like you just like argue.

Badly.

As opposed to me, as I like to argue, but I like to do it well. Unfortunately Videohelp discourages Flamewars. I suspect that torching you would be entertaining. Possibly for both of us but I doubt that you would actually like it.

Must restrain self with both hands lest I

Ethelred

[deadrats]

Must restrain self with both hands lest I

don't you usually "restrain" (i didn't realize that's what they're calling it these day) yourself with 2 fingers?

[Ethlred]

Don't learn do you?

License rights does not equate to copyright rights. It is not a copyright violation to install a program that you have legally purchased.

Obviously one finger is enough to disable you. However two is traditional.

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk

Fnjord

Oh Meow as well.

Ethelred

[ocgw]

Must restrain self with both hands lest I

don't you usually "restrain" (i didn't realize that's what they're calling it these day) yourself with 2 fingers?

LOLZ that was good LOLZ

Knock, knock

Whos's there?

The POLICE!, we have a warrant to search your premises for evidence of "illegal" copywrite infringement

ocgw

peace

[ocgw]

Dual booting is so 1990s. KVM two systems or virtualize.

That's why I currently pentaboot (one more and I'll be able to wear my sexy boots) and have about four VMs. I also Remote Desktop since running more than 100' of VGA and USB cable is a bit inconvenient. In fact I'm doing so right now.

The beauty of "dual booting" is that you "hose" one OS you have an instant backup on the same PC

ocgw

peace

[rallynavvie]

The beauty of "dual booting" is that you "hose" one OS you have an instant backup on the same PC

The same is true of using a KVM between two computers but with the added advantage of almost instantaneously switching to the other OS. Depending on your VM implementation you can get a similar backup, even with hosted VMs when the host is lost. Obviously the guests can be instantly rebuilt or reverted to a previous snapshot, something physical builds can't do so easily.

[ocgw]

The beauty of "dual booting" is that you "hose" one OS you have an instant backup on the same PC

The same is true of using a KVM between two computers but with the added advantage of almost instantaneously switching to the other OS. Depending on your VM implementation you can get a similar backup, even with hosted VMs when the host is lost. Obviously the guests can be instantly rebuilt or reverted to a previous snapshot, something physical builds can't do so easily.

Dual booting + 2 PC's = 4 OS's

KVM seems decidely "80's" to me, needing 2 PC's to run 2 OS's, really?, now that is "old school"

Anyway we have had this conversation before, if a VM can't recognize my native hardware it is of no use to me, (I am doing a lil' more than running "office chit")

ocgw

peace

[ocgw]

I had the camera out and remembered I wanted to post this pic in this thread lol



ocgw

peace

[Bjs]

Ive lost quite a few things over the years , the only person Ive blamed is myself . Dont like Windows ? delete it and stop whining .

Yes, that's why the shrink wrap license for virtually every software package basically says: "We don't guarantee this software does anything. If it doesn't work as advertised, or if it screws up your computer, that's your problem. We are only liable for the cost of this software. No returns are allowed once you opened the package. You have no choice but to agree to these license terms because you had to open the package to see the terms. You're fucked. We're not."

That's damn hilarious lolll

The good old having to open it in the first place to read the agreement trap

As for anything related to "piracy" ... At least with windows 7 you have 30 days to test the product but to buy it before service pack 1 dose mean your a test guinea pig (beta tester)

Then there's the "trialware" ... X number of days before you either remove it or purchase ... near useless if specific features are disabled

Currently running windows 7 ultimate non-activated ... testing many products

Funny how ms send's me a message about windows server 2008 which has 90 days ... if you have not finished learning or testing the product you can reinstall it ... basically it read just reload it when 90 days expires ?

[dragonkeeper]

Though i have not completely read the Eula, I believe Deadrats statements to be correct in the most part. This comes from working at one of the largest corporations in the world. And having to invent ways to work within the Microsoft Eula when taking on new projects. The company I work for is currently on XP for the most part, I was quoted a figure in excess of 100K workstations are currently using XP. We will be buying the full version of Windows7 instead of the upgrade. I don't remember the specifics, i just remember it has something to do with the Eula.
Where you aware that it is against the Eula to use WindowsXP as a server of any kind (at least for business), i found out the hard way while working on an international project in impoverished countries.

[johns0]

I read from the microsoft site and it states to do a full install of windows and then do a clean install,if you want to do a clean install without installing the previous windows then you have to buy the full retail version.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Though i have not completely read the Eula, I believe Deadrats statements to be correct in the most part. This comes from working at one of the largest corporations in the world. And having to invent ways to work within the Microsoft Eula when taking on new projects. The company I work for is currently on XP for the most part, I was quoted a figure in excess of 100K workstations are currently using XP. We will be buying the full version of Windows7 instead of the upgrade. I don't remember the specifics, i just remember it has something to do with the Eula.
Where you aware that it is against the Eula to use WindowsXP as a server of any kind (at least for business), i found out the hard way while working on an international project in impoverished countries.

Retail and volume licensing are completely different.

[deadrats]

I read from the microsoft site and it states to do a full install of windows and then do a clean install,if you want to do a clean install without installing the previous windows then you have to buy the full retail version.

thank you, evidently there all all of 3 or 4 people involved in this thread that are a) capable of reading the english language and b) understanding what they read.

[deadrats]

Where you aware that it is against the Eula to use WindowsXP as a server of any kind (at least for business), i found out the hard way while working on an international project in impoverished countries.

that's kind of a "no, duh", of course microsoft would include language in the eula preventing you from using xp home or pro as a server, that's why they sell (at a ridiculously inflated price) the server editions, basically they are attempting to protect the market for their server products.

personally i would never use any microsoft or apple server OS, not because of any technical limitations but rather because of licensing restrictions, i would just download one of the fully baked linux server oriented distro and use that for free (in a completely legal sense) and not be bound to any vendor high pressure sales tactics or forced upgrade time table.

[vandamme]

I think Microsoft has made a huge error in not allowing upgrades from XP. There are probably millions of users who did not convert to Vista and still use XP.

Probably most of them don't have the horsepower. OTOH I put LinuxMint on a 6 year old 2GHz with 512M and it ran lots faster than XP. And Ubuntu on a 5 yr old laptop with 256M; it's slow, but doesn't cache & bog down terribly like XP does. Soo...why did I buy a new computer? To run Win7 and all its anti-virus, eye candy, and updates to come. GRRRRR.

[AlanHK]

you also misspelled patronizing. let me guess, you were trying to upgrade your browser's built in spell checker and something went wrong, so it no longer works.

Or since (s)he is in the UK, was using a UK spellchecker.

however, microsoft themselves make it clear in the eula that they do not allow for any workaround to be used to bypass any software limitation and they further make it clear in their knowledge base that clean installing using an upgrade key is not supported, thus if you perform a clean install using an upgrade version of vista (or win 7, they have the same eula) you are pirating the OS.
case closed.

What Microsoft says is the law is not necessarily so.
They are hardly offering disinterested legal advice.
Before I declared "case closed" I'd like to get an opinion from, say, a judge, who has actually considered if what MS puts in their EULA is consistent with the law.

[deadrats]

What Microsoft says is the law is not necessarily so.
They are hardly offering disinterested legal advice.
Before I declared "case closed" I'd like to get an opinion from, say, a judge, who has actually considered if what MS puts in their EULA is consistent with the law.

the problem is that the courts have repeatedly upheld the legality of microsoft's eula, don't you think any of the thousands of people microsoft has sued and/or had criminal charges pressed against, tried various different methods to have the eula declared illegal/non-binding, which would thus render any lawsuit/criminal charges un-prosecutable, but thus far no one has succeeded.

whether anyone likes it or not, the way copyright law stands in this country at the moment is that the software license IS the law, the copyright act of 1997 and the dmca give the license the force of law, i personally don't like it, i don't agree with it, i hate copyright law as it currently exists, but it is what it is.

of course, i wouldn't condemn anyone if they violated a software licensing agreement at some point in their life...

[AlanHK]

the problem is that the courts have repeatedly upheld the legality of microsoft's eula, don't you think any of the thousands of people microsoft has sued

"thousands of people"?
Citation?

Note: many people are certainly THREATENED by Microsoft, and make a deal. The case never goes to court.
Fighting a case against Microsoft with its unbounded resources is bound to cost a fortune and take years, so almost everyone just settles and the legalities are never tested.

[deadrats]

"thousands of people"?
Citation?

Note: many people are certainly THREATENED by Microsoft, and make a deal. The case never goes to court.
Fighting a case against Microsoft with its unbounded resources is bound to cost a fortune and take years, so almost everyone just settles and the legalities are never tested.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/microsoft-lawsuits,news-1626.html

Microsoft was busy filing 21 federal lawsuits against alleged software pirates.

http://www.crn.com/it-channel/18809815;jsessionid=1CKY4WBVPW4ZFQE1GHRSKHWATMY32JVN

http://www.allbusiness.com/crime-law/criminal-offenses-cybercrime/11875687-1.html

Microsoft Corp. announced Thursday a global crackdown on counterfeit
computer software sales online, putting a small South Florida business in its legal crosshairs.

The software giant filed 16 federal lawsuits against people or companies based in the United States suspected of selling knock-off software through online auction sites. In addition, the Redmond, Wash.-based company initiated criminal and/or civil actions in 11 other countries, including New Zealand, Japan and the Dominican Republic.

http://starredreviews.com/microsoft-files-lawsuites-against-software-pirates/135/

Microsoft has filed 52 lawsuits against businesses and individuals around the world for using illegitimate versions of its Windows, Office, and other products.

http://www.allbusiness.com/technology/computer-software/429989-1.html

a federal grand jury in Boston has charged a Massachusetts Institute of Technology student with a felony crime for using a bulletin board to give away an estimated $1 million in pirated business and entertainment software.

student with a felony crime for using a bulletin board to give away an estimated $1 million in pirated business and entertainment software.

note that the above 2 criminal cases involving pirated software pre-date both the dmca and the copyright act of 1997, as far back as 1994 (and even before that) people have been charged with felonies for using and distributing pirated software.

the list is endless...

[jagabo]

There have been a few cases where terms of EULA's have been addressed. At least some of the most egregious terms have been overturned. But otherwise it's been a mixed bag. Wikipedia has some examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_User_License_Agreement

[AlanHK]

"thousands of people"?
Citation?

Note: many people are certainly THREATENED by Microsoft, and make a deal. The case never goes to court.
Fighting a case against Microsoft with its unbounded resources is bound to cost a fortune and take years, so almost everyone just settles and the legalities are never tested.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/microsoft-lawsuits,news-1626.html

Microsoft was busy filing 21 federal lawsuits against alleged software pirates.

http://www.crn.com/it-channel/18809815;jsessionid=1CKY4WBVPW4ZFQE1GHRSKHWATMY32JVN

http://www.allbusiness.com/crime-law/criminal-offenses-cybercrime/11875687-1.html

Microsoft Corp. announced Thursday a global crackdown on counterfeit
computer software sales online, putting a small South Florida business in its legal crosshairs.

The software giant filed 16 federal lawsuits against people or companies based in the United States suspected of selling knock-off software through online auction sites. In addition, the Redmond, Wash.-based company initiated criminal and/or civil actions in 11 other countries, including New Zealand, Japan and the Dominican Republic.

http://starredreviews.com/microsoft-files-lawsuites-against-software-pirates/135/

Microsoft has filed 52 lawsuits against businesses and individuals around the world for using illegitimate versions of its Windows, Office, and other products.

http://www.allbusiness.com/technology/computer-software/429989-1.html

a federal grand jury in Boston has charged a Massachusetts Institute of Technology student with a felony crime for using a bulletin board to give away an estimated $1 million in pirated business and entertainment software.

student with a felony crime for using a bulletin board to give away an estimated $1 million in pirated business and entertainment software.

note that the above 2 criminal cases involving pirated software pre-date both the dmca and the copyright act of 1997, as far back as 1994 (and even before that) people have been charged with felonies for using and distributing pirated software.

the list is endless...

You don't list "thousands".
And some of those are ten years old.
And all of them are of Microsoft "filing suits" None say what the result was.
And all of them are of people selling copied software, not violating the EULA of software they bought.

So, you haven't answered or even addressed my question.