Windows 7 Upgrade Makes Some PCs Unusable

[JohnnyMalaria]

so i don't what you or anyone else in this thread is thinking when they say it's the users fault for not backing up, in what way do you guys think that would have helped?

Er, let's see, they would be able to get the system back to the state it was in before attempting the upgrade. Where on earth did you get any hint that I was talking about user data backup - I'm talking about a full system backup as used for recovery after other catastrophic failures.

Not backing up prior to a major OS update is as stupid and deserving of the consequences as not having antivirus software (and using it).

Did you recently hose your system without a backup and are ranting so as to shift the blame elsewhere? Seems as such.

[Noahtuck]

Micro$oft upgrade discs ARE full versions - they just have some 'extra' code to check for previous version or ask for previous version install disc.
I've done a complete install (many times) with brand new HD using upgrade disc - all you have to do is put the previous version install disc in when it asks.

Now that you mention it, i remember doing stuff like that back in the day with win95 & 98

I still have windows 3.1 on a disc i used to use to install win95 on a freshly formatted drive.
It would ask you to locate it, i would browse to the cd and open the folder, then after it found it i would put the other disc back in and install.


I forgot all about that!!

But i never bothered with XPpro or Vista Ultimate, i just bought the full versions, but never at retail prices.

[deadrats]

Did you recently hose your system without a backup and are ranting so as to shift the blame elsewhere? Seems as such.

i'm going to assume that you are not aware that vista and win 7 automatically back up your current windows install to Windows.old and if something goes wrong during the install of the new OS the install routine will automatically restore your old install from the backup that was made. this behavior is present in the "full" variants (i have encountered and talked about this before) and i had always assumed that it was present in the "upgrade" variants as well.

something obviously is going wrong for these folks, for whatever reason the install routine on the student upgrade versions isn't doing what it was designed to do.

no matter which way you look like at it, the problem lies with the software and not the end user.

now it's possible to restore your previous windows install manually if you know what you're doing by booting off your old windows media, entering the command console and copying the contents of Windows.old to their proper directories and then fixing the mbr, but if you don't have the original media you're SOL.

in all honesty it's irrelevant, when you purchase a piece of software it should do what it promises, i would expect the small apps you code to perform the task you claim they do and i would expect you to man up if they didn't, not to tell me that it sucks to be me.

when the software a company sells to the public doesn't perform as claimed then the company has effectively ripped off the consumer and they deserve all the piracy that comes their way.

[rallynavvie]

OMG I was ripped off twice!

[deadrats]

OMG I was ripped off twice!

you certainly were if you actually bought 2 copies of win 7 ultimate which costs $300 for the retails version and $200 for the oem version, you could have bought a family pack (3 licenses) of win 7 home premium for $150, or win 7 pro for $30 (that's the student version, if you feel bad for bill and co just sign up for a class at the local community college, buy the software and then drop the class).

as the old saying goes "a fool and his money are soon parted", anyone that would spend $600 on 2 win 7 ultimate licenses needs to have his head examined.

[rallynavvie]

Or I spent $50 each on them because I work in IT and know where to acquire things. I don't need actual boxed copies anyway since I have an MSDN and TNP subscriptions. These are for family.

[ranchhand]

can't tell you how many times over the years i bought software that didn't do what it promised, was buggy as hell, crashed constantly or had some other problem and the developer would only tell me it's my computer hardware's fault

I know I'm coming in late on this, but I couldn't agree more. I can't even begin to count the number of "shoemaker" software packages I have purchased for the last 30 years, and ended up tossing. Hell, I remember spending hours sitting in front of old Windows 3.xxx trying to fix the latest corruption crash. Look at Windows ME - I will never forgive M/Soft for pawning that manure on the public, and they new damn well that folks were going to confuse it with the new NTFS system M/Soft had in the works that every one was expecting around the turn of our century. I remember forums were loaded with bewildered posters trying to fix their crashed and corrupted systems. And sure enough, XP came out a few months later. No pity on my end for software companies.

[stiltman]

Or I spent $50 each on them because I work in IT and know where to acquire things. I don't need actual boxed copies anyway since I have an MSDN and TNP subscriptions. These are for family.

Or like me and have my buddy that works for MS pick up a copy from the employee store

[Ethlred]

Dear Mr. DeadRats:

Go to Paul Thurot's windows supersite and get a clue.

It is NOT illegal to make a clean install with Windows7. Its just tricky and MS won't tell you the tricks. They never told the tricks for Windows Vista either but they also didn't stop them with two service packs and now with Windows 7. Clearly they don't want to broadcast the method but clearly they also don't want to stop it. Its needed for people whose HDD die.

And what ever happened to Geeks using their using their brains.

DUAL BOOT people.

Really, dual booting is the way to go especially if you have XP. Keep the old while you get used the new and get a clean install at the same time.

I recommend this to anyone with even a modicum of skill. For those without a clue as to how to dual boot they are afraid of installing themselves anyway.

Ethelred

[johns0]

If its like any other upgrade versions of windows to do a clean install just pop in the disc and start to install,it will ask for the original vista disc to verify that its being upgraded,then pop out the disc and put in the upgrade disc and continue the install.

[Ethlred]

That worked with XP. Not anymore. Not since Vista.

Neither Vista nor Windows 7 works that way. Both require that the qualifying product be INSTALLED on the computer. An appearance of installation, such as a copy of an installation from another machine or a hard drive from another, may be close enough. Installing Windows 7 twice works, if done right. But just switching out the disk for an old installation CD won't work.

License wise the rule is that you must own a previous version of Windows, either XP or Vista. If you own it you are qualified to buy an upgrade. I saw someone say that Windows 2000 works but I don't remember it being on the box.

I take it that isn't an upgrade version of Vista in your Computer Details? I am using an OEM XP myself but this requirement of an actual installed qualifier is well known. It apparently is due to the changes in way new PCs are sold without install disks. Which is likely the reason that the double install work around functions as well. No install disc for most so most can't simply swap disks anymore.

What idiot decided that its "disc" for singular and "disks" for plural? I am tempted to rebel against this stupid spelling rule that seems based on the tendency for English to have irregularities just to be difficult.

Ethelred

[lordsmurf]

Dual booting is so 1990s. KVM two systems or virtualize.

[deadrats]

It is NOT illegal to make a clean install with Windows7.

i did not say it was illegal to do a clean install with windows 7, i said it's illegal to do a clean install with windows 7 upgrade, big difference.

furthermore, Pauly is advocating piracy and giving instructions on how to do it. as i pointed out already, the Win 7 EULA explicitly forbids the user from working around any technical limitation of the software and microsoft makes a point of disabling the "clean install" option on "upgrade disks", therefore it is illegal to perform a clean install using "upgrade" media, pure and simple.

if you have a problem with that i suggest you take it up with microsoft themselves, better yet, contact microsoft tech support and ask them what microsoft's stance on the matter is.

edit: hopefully this will put all this to rest:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=1477&tag=content;col1

So, does this mean I can install an upgrade version on a new PC I’m building?

From a technical point of view, yes. But from a licensing point of view, absolutely not. The discounted price for an upgrade applies because you already paid for a license on the system you’re upgrading. If you are building a new PC, you need a full license from a retail or OEM package.

who's your daddy?

[rallynavvie]

Dual booting is so 1990s. KVM two systems or virtualize.

This.

Not sure about the VirtualPC instance of XP that can be added to Win7 but I know with VMware you can use the free converter to capture your existing Windows machine into a VM that can then be used with Workstation (not free) or Player (free). Before wiping my old laptop to Linux I used P2V to grab a VM of the XP build which was on it so that I could pull it up and reference settings or docs that I didn't back up from it on any of my computers (even my Mac). The only thing virtualization doesn't allow still is use of some of your PCI devices (like TV tuners for instance) but there are creative workaround to these such as using USB peripherals (as USB passthrough is pretty well-supported in VMs).

[Jim44]

It is NOT illegal to make a clean install with Windows7.

i did not say it was illegal to do a clean install with windows 7, i said it's illegal to do a clean install with windows 7 upgrade, big difference.

And there a big difference between doing a clean install on a system that already has a legal copy of Windows, and as you quoted below, a clean, never-been-used computer. I agree with your quote about the latter, however you seem to be missing the former point most (at least, I) have been making.

I already have a full, legal copy of XP, which I bought when I built this PC from scratch, as was appropriate. I bought upgrade media this time and will be doing a "clean" install on that same machine; i.e. I will be wiping out my existing XP install and installing 7 in it's place on the same disc, same hardware. That's an "upgrade", no matter how much you may want to disagree.

edit: hopefully this will put all this to rest:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=1477&tag=content;col1

So, does this mean I can install an upgrade version on a new PC I’m building?

From a technical point of view, yes. But from a licensing point of view, absolutely not. The discounted price for an upgrade applies because you already paid for a license on the system you’re upgrading. If you are building a new PC, you need a full license from a retail or OEM package.

As I said, this is NOT a new PC, but the same one that has XP on it. Why you can't seem to get that straight, I have no idea.

[deadrats]

And there a big difference between doing a clean install on a system that already has a legal copy of Windows, and as you quoted below, a clean, never-been-used computer. I agree with your quote about the latter, however you seem to be missing the former point most (at least, I) have been making.

I already have a full, legal copy of XP, which I bought when I built this PC from scratch, as was appropriate. I bought upgrade media this time and will be doing a "clean" install on that same machine; i.e. I will be wiping out my existing XP install and installing 7 in it's place on the same disc, same hardware. That's an "upgrade", no matter how much you may want to disagree.

As I said, this is NOT a new PC, but the same one that has XP on it. Why you can't seem to get that straight, I have no idea.

maybe if i explain this one last different way:

starting with Vista and continuing with Win 7 microsoft changed the EULA and added language that explicitly disallows the end user from circumventing any technical restriction present in the software. keep that in mind, i will be getting back to it in a second.

prior to Vista, if you had "upgrade" media, the install routine would prompt you to install a qualifying windows disk, for instance if you were upgrading to xp pro it would prompt you for a windows cd, you could pop in your win 2k, win me or win 98, the install routine would check the disk, and then prompt you to reinstall the xp pro upgrade cd and you could proceed with the installation even if the pc had no OS at all, if any of the above OSes were already installed then the xp pro installation would proceed without any prompts.

starting with Vista microsoft changed the installer so that the upgrade option is only available if a qualifying OS is already installed, if no OS is installed then the option to upgrade is not available, the installer won't prompt you for a qualifying windows media, even if you have the "upgrade" version of Vista.

do you want to know why they did that? because it was possible to trick the installer with "pirated" media, if you knew what you were doing you didn't need a working win 2k/me/98 cd, it was possible to fake it and still get the installer to install xp home/pro.

so microsoft wanted to close that loophole and make sure that what the end user was claiming was a qualifying license for upgrade was indeed legit and the only way they could do that was by requiring that upgrades only be made one a pc with a fully installed OS, and preferably one that was already activated, i.e. xp.

now do you understand, thanks to the change in the language of the EULA and to the way the windows installer now works, doing an upgrade without having a qualifying windows installation up and running is not permitted, if you buy an "upgrade" version of vista or 7, then you must have a windows OS up and running before you can use it, thus doing a clean install with an upgrade of vista or 7 is illegal, it's a consequence of the language in the EULA i quoted earlier.

now i agree with you, you purchased an upgrade license, have a qualifying xp license, but unfortunately you are not legally allowed to do a clean install with the upgrade media, you can still use it, but the only legal way is to perform a clean install of xp, then upgrade from that installation.

i'm sorry if you or anyone else doesn't like it but thats the way it is.

of course an easy way to avoid all this bullshit is to find a copy of the student edition of win 7 for $30 and not be a suckker that pays a couple of hundred for an upgrade version.

[JohnnyMalaria]

13. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible
for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software
you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from.

I already have a full, legal copy of XP, which I bought when I built this PC from scratch, as was appropriate. I bought upgrade media this time and will be doing a "clean" install on that same machine; i.e. I will be wiping out my existing XP install and installing 7 in it's place on the same disc, same hardware. That's an "upgrade", no matter how much you may want to disagree.

A clean Vista install can easily be performed even if XP is already on there. If the installer lets Jim install Vista without XP being there, it does not violate the EULA. Similarly, creating a second partition, installing Vista to it and then nuking the XP partition doesn't infringe either.

[deadrats]

A clean Vista install can easily be performed even if XP is already on there. If the installer lets Jim install Vista without XP being there, it does not violate the EULA. Similarly, creating a second partition, installing Vista to it and then nuking the XP partition doesn't infringe either.

that's the part that everyone seems not to be able to understand no matter how many times i say it: the vista (and win 7) installer on the upgrade editions of said OSes do not allow the installation to proceed unless an existing qualifying OS is already installed, i speak from experience, this is all over the 'net, its not something i dreamed up.

that is why with vista you had to do the so-called "double install" trick, since the installer allows you to install vista (and win 7) without using a product key (you must install it within 30 days, but you can bypass that as well), you do a clean install of vista without entering a key (and the installer assumes that you have purchased a "full" version), then when that installation is up and running you would re-run the vista (or win 7) installer and this time use the "upgrade" key that came with the version you purchased.

again, this is all very well known, just google "double install trick + vista" and you'll see tons of site with the how-to.

however, as i have said about a dozen times, you are bypassing a limitation of the software if you do this and since as i already said, section 8 of the EULA explicitly forbids the bypassing of software limitations, then you are technically committing an act of piracy.

now if xp is already on their, then there is no need to do any of this, the vista/win 7 installers allow you to proceed as you wish and their is no need to "trick" the installer nor is there a need for a second partition.

anyone that doesn't believe me, try it yourself, no installed OS, no clean install using "upgrade" vista/win 7 product key, and thus you go down a road that violates section 8 of the EULA when you follow the advice of the various website on how to get around the vista/win 7 installer.

i don't knwo how i can be any clearer.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Your interpretation of Section 8 is just that - your interpretation. Mine is that - per 13 - purchasing the upgrade grants you the same licensing rights as purchasing the full version. The EULA is exactly the same for both. I certainly would not interpret the first bullet item in 8 the way you have but rather that it means you won't try to convert a Home Basic to Ultimate or Client to Server etc. But, since neither you or I are intellectual property attorneys, it is a pointless argument. If Jim44 has got an upgrade license install of Vista on a machine that had XP on it and he no longer uses that XP license then it ain't piracy.

[rallynavvie]

The silly thing is you all are arguing about consumer licensing. M$ could give two shits about consumer licensing since most people buy their computers from OEMs like Dell, HP, and Sony. The money M$ makes from licensing comes from the enterprise side where their shenanigans is amplified from these arguments by 4-5 orders of magnitude. This is mostly semantics.

[deadrats]

Your interpretation of Section 8 is just that - your interpretation.

fine then how do you interpret the following statement:

you may not work around any technical limitations of the software

i'm dying to hear what you think the above quote means.

[deadrats]

The silly thing is you all are arguing about consumer licensing. M$ could give two shits about consumer licensing since most people buy their computers from OEMs like Dell, HP, and Sony. The money M$ makes from licensing comes from the enterprise side where their shenanigans is amplified from these arguments by 4-5 orders of magnitude. This is mostly semantics.

personally i don't care, my stance on software policy is well known, this all started in another thread where a poster was asking for help doing a clean install with win 7 upgrade, a couple of posters provided links on how to perform the action, and i responded to one of them that technically its illegal to do that and that in the interest of consistency in applying this forum's rules said links should not be provided, since i wouldn't be allowed to provide a link to a torrent site where he could just download an iso. a mod didn't close the thread but did remove the links.

i then referenced that thread in this thread and some asked for links to back up what i was saying. i have done so but these same people that would start bitching if i provided torrent links for win 7 have no problem justifying what effectively is a partial piracy and "partial piracy" is no better than full piracy.

hell, if you really want to get technical about it, buying and using the student version of windows is also illegal if you are not a student at a qualifying college, but people still do it. i guarantee you these same people would be all up in my ass if i simply advised someone to just download it from somewhereontheweb.com.

basically this all started as a way of ensuring some consistency in the application of the rules of this forum and it has degenerated into a group of people that wish to justify violating the windows EULA simply because they find it inconvenient.

me, i don't like hypocrisy, if you're going to violate the EULA in one way and do something you're not legally allowed to do then i say f**k it, pirate the OS flat out and be done with it.

but don't here and act like some goody two shoes that all your software is fully legal because clearly its not.

[AuroEdge]

I'm one of those guys who gave Microsoft the money for the upgrade and got shafted. Basically my PC is unable to boot to Windows 7 period.

On a side note, do you guys know if I can use a product key for Windows 7 Pro on a Windows 7 Ultimate installation disc? It was my understanding all discs of Windows 7 contain everything for all versions but what was available depended on the Product Key you put in. Just wondering since the Windows 7 64-bit download installation file they provide will only install from a 64-bit operating system. How thoughtful!

[Ethlred]

i did not say it was illegal to do a clean install with windows 7, i said it's illegal to do a clean install with windows 7 upgrade, big difference.

Sorry that I failed your redundancy check.

I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE UPGRADE VERSION.

So I say it again.

It is NOT illegal to make a clean install with Windows 7 UPGRADE.

Satisfied?

Your wrong.

furthermore, Pauly is advocating piracy and giving instructions on how to do it.

False. He is telling to do things that MS allows and IS AWARE OF. He works WITH MS. He signs their NDS forms. They read his site. They know what he is doing and has been doing since he wrote the same thing about VISTA.

It is NOT piracy to install UPGRADE versions of ANY version of Windows if you have PAID for the qualifying product.

Now quit inventing laws without being elected.

if you have a problem with that i suggest you take it up with Microsoft themselves.

MS doesn't have a problem with Paul. So neither do I.

How about tell MS what they already know.

If you are building a new PC, you need a full license from a retail or OEM package.

Which I already said. A full license. Which is not the same as an INSTALLED license.

You are claiming things that MS has had YEARS to act on. They have not. They have not told Paul that what he was advocating was illegal. If they don't think it is why do you?

My Daddy is dead.

So is your argument.

Ethelred

[Ethlred]

Dual booting is so 1990s. KVM two systems or virtualize.

If only I could afford to have two good machines. Heck ONE good machine at the moment is beyond me.

VMs are not the right answer for anyone that wants a full speed install. The idea I am advocating is not keep two systems but to use the dual boot to cover people during the transition and to avoid the difficulties some seem to be having with getting a clean install.

Do you know if the Window 7 installer can recoganise a VM as a qualifying installation? If so then it would be a good way to go for many geeks. Unfortunately it won't do for most people as they have enough difficulty just installing ANY software.

Really people actually ask me if THEY, as opposed to a Computer God, can install Windows Office. Any version. At all. And will the service department install it for them.

I sometimes wonder how they managed to get to the store. Surely turning the key in the ignition is a major strain.

No I don't say that to them. I usually don't even think it while talking to them. Its after that it comes out of the abyss of my mind.

Then I remind myself that they have let fear override their sense. Few are really that clueless.

Then I try to sell them a book. Amazingly many would prefer to use a program to learn. Weird that one is.

Ethelred

[rallynavvie]

Do you know if the Window 7 installer can recoganise a VM as a qualifying installation?

Oh my, no it will not. Not unless you're installing Windows 7 within that VM. Host and guest should be treated as two separate machines.

[deadrats]

I'm one of those guys who gave Microsoft the money for the upgrade and got shafted. Basically my PC is unable to boot to Windows 7 period.

On a side note, do you guys know if I can use a product key for Windows 7 Pro on a Windows 7 Ultimate installation disc? It was my understanding all discs of Windows 7 contain everything for all versions but what was available depended on the Product Key you put in. Just wondering since the Windows 7 64-bit download installation file they provide will only install from a 64-bit operating system. How thoughtful!

the media that comes in the package doesn't change (unlike pre-Vista windows) all that changes is the product key, so you can use any key you want to install any version you want, in fact there isn't even a difference between "upgrade" media and "full" media, they are the exact same thing, there is nothing technically stopping you from using a "full" key with the "upgrade" edition you bought.

as a side note, i'm not sure it's technically possible to upgrade from a 32 bit OS to a 64 bit OS regardless of the OS in question, you are correct that it's not possible to upgrade to 64 bit win 7 from a 32 bit OS but i'm also fairly certain that its not possible to do that with any OS, not linux, not unix, not solaris, and not OS X.

[deadrats]

You are claiming things that MS has had YEARS to act on. They have not. They have not told Paul that what he was advocating was illegal. If they don't think it is why do you?

what the f are you talking about? taken right from his website, on the page where he talks about doing a clean install using Vista upgrade media:

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_upgrade_clean.asp

This is an interesting and viable workaround for anyone who owns a previous Windows version but would like to perform a clean install of the new operating system on their existing hardware. While I'm a bit nervous about legal implications and Microsoft's ability to cut off this process in the future, I'm glad that innocent Windows upgraders do in fact have all the options that were available to them in previous Windows versions. For its part in this silliness, Microsoft gets a virtual slap on the wrist: Sometimes, it seems, the company forgets that Windows is expensive and paying customers should be able to easily install the new OS without taking on the added clutter of a previous Windows installation.

and he also says:

Proceed at your own risk.

now i will grant you that he doesn't address any legal issues in his win 7 article but win 7 and vista have the exact same eula and the same technical limitations with it's installer that vista has, so...

now using your, and a few other's, argument i could justify using a crack to bypass windows activation, since activation is a technical limitation and you, and a few others, seem to think that when it says "you may not bypass any technical limitations in the software" it really means "do whatever the f**k you want".

as i said, do whatever you want, hell i've pirated software before, i ran a pirated copy of win 2k for years, i considered it payback for the screwing i received by buying Win Me and all the times that damned OS crashed and i lost what i was working on or all the times it crashed and f**ked up the fat32 filesystem and i lost all my data and didn't have any recourse to get my money back (and some compensation) from microsoft.

i also feel for anyone that spent their hard earned cash on an "upgrade" license for win 7 or vista just to find out that a) there is on easy way to do a clean install with upgrade media and b) student get to buy the full version for $30 at certain colleges when you spent $200, so do what ever you want, but just don't lie to us or yourself that what you are doing is any better than someone that is flat out pirating the OS is doing.

[deadrats]

Do you know if the Window 7 installer can recognize a VM as a qualifying installation? If so then it would be a good way to go for many geeks. Unfortunately it won't do for most people as they have enough difficulty just installing ANY software.

assuming the win 7 eula is the same as vista's eula (and for all practical purposes it is, just the word vista is replaced with win 7), it would be illegal to do that with certain win 7 versions:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/29/microsoft_vista_eula_analysis/page2.html

Things will be different with Vista. Buried deep in the back of the EULA, in the sections titled "MICROSOFT WINDOWS VISTA HOME BASIC" and "MICROSOFT WINDOWS VISTA HOME PREMIUM," are two identical clauses:

4. USE WITH VIRTUALIZATION TECHNOLOGIES. You may not use the software installed on the licensed device within a virtual (or otherwise emulated) hardware system.

and with ultimate you have the following restrictions:

It gets better, however. If you comply with Microsoft's licensing and use Ultimate within a virtualized environment, you still have to comply with section 6 of the "MICROSOFT WINDOWS VISTA ULTIMATE" appendix to the Vista EULA:

6. USE WITH VIRTUALIZATION TECHNOLOGIES. You may use the software installed on the licensed device within a virtual (or otherwise emulated) hardware system on the licensed device. If you do so, you may not play or access content or use applications protected by any Microsoft digital, information or enterprise rights management technology or other Microsoft rights management services or use BitLocker. We advise against playing or accessing content or using applications protected by other digital, information or enterprise rights management technology or other rights management services or using full volume disk drive encryption.

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_licensing.asp

Any version of Windows Vista can host virtual machines (VMs), whether in Microsoft's Virtual PC solution or a rival product like VMWare Workstation. However, only two retail version of Windows Vista are licensed for use as a guest OS in a VM: Windows Vista Business and Ultimate. (A third--non-retail--Vista version, Vista Enterprise, has different licensing terms, which I'll address in a bit.)

Let that one sink in for a second. You cannot install Windows Vista Home Basic or Home Premium in a virtual machine, at least from a legal standpoint.

are you capable of understanding this or an i just "inventing laws that don't exist" again?

[jagabo]

Microsoft knows that DRM is dead when you use a VM. All VM's can be made to look like the same computer.