In search for an uncompressed video capture card

[xyzxyz]

Hello

I would really like to convert all my old VCR tapes into digital content.
Most of those tapes if not all of them were recorded via composite so the quality is really not that high.

My issue is that I currently have this Hauppauge PVR-150 TV card with composite input that lets me record from the VCR, BUT - it has this hardware MPEG-2 encoder that just saves all my captured recording as MPEG-2 video with me having no control what so ever on the final video.
I can convert it later to DivX but the card built in MPEG-2 encoder really messed up the video source already (+the audio sync..).

Besides, I just hate MPEG-2 content, its so 1996.
I would prefer a cheap used card that can capture an uncompressed video stream, leaving me the flexibility to encode it later with DivX or maybe even MPEG-4 AVC for best quality and size.

That card can even have only composite input, as all my content are old video tapes.
I would prefer a card that can capture uncompressed video up to 1080 whice can uses me for future capturing, but I'm guessing i don't have the $$$ for those type of cards yet

Thanks in advance for your help

[hech54]

I'm staying out of this one. There is SO much wrong with what you want and the reasons for wanting it...I don't know where to begin...

[filmboss80]

I share hech54's sentiments, but I'm dumb enough to try to help anyway...

Using the type of card you described for VHS captures is akin to buying a 10-liter bucket to contain 3 drops of water. All the same, you can certainly look at the products at www.blackmagic-design.com to find something close to what you're looking for.

However, ADS and Canopus make nice analog-to-digital interfaces that will allow you to capture to DV-AVI, which is a fine codec for VHS and DV sources, and is great for frame-accurate edits.

Unless you are doing multi-generational enhancements to the video footage, uncompressed video would not really be necessary.

And DV-AVI may also be "so 1996" (or whatever year it came out), but we are talking function, not fashion. Do you want to get the job done?

[jman98]

I also wondered if I should even reply, but I have a few things to say.

The PVR-150 is supposed to be able to do AVI capturing. I have the PVR-350 which uses a different chipset and the 350 definitely cannot do AVI capturing, but I'm positive that I read that the 150 can. Have you tried that? While the PVR-250 and 350 are top notch cards, the 150 is a completely different animal. The 250 and 350 work for basically everyone who installs them (I have never had a sync issue with mine). The 150 works for some people and others have nothing but problems. That's just the nature of the card. And if you have problems with this card, there probably is nothing you can do to fix them.

MPEG-2 is fine. Yes it's old, but it doesn't suck. It's good enough for a lot of needs. Although I hate their cards, a lot of ATI cards were able to record AVI from video input. Perhaps one of them would work well for you, although again, I don't recommend them.

I have not personally seen a video capture card capable of recording VHS input at 1080. Perhaps a card exists somewhere that can do that, but I don't know about it. I'm finding it difficult to understand why you want to do this since VHS tape has a resolution lower than DVD. One source says its roughly equivalent to 333x480. I don't think that capturing VHS at 1080 is going to look very good.

[bendixG15]

................. I'm finding it difficult to understand why you want to do this since VHS tape has a resolution lower than DVD. One source says its roughly equivalent to 333x480. I don't think that capturing VHS at 1080 is going to look very good.

I have put hundreds of VHS tapes on DVDs and I really believe jman98 is correct. You are doing good if you can get your tape close to DVD quality.

[usually_quiet]

Hauppauge's FAQ page for the WINTV PVR 150 says this:
"The WinTV-PVR-150 records directly to MPEG using onboard Hardware encoders. Most third party capture applications are looking to attach to a card or driver that supports uncompressed video recordings. Like AVI files. These programs cannot capture video directly using the PVR-150. (ie. MovieMaker, Media Encoder, Pinnacle Studio, Adobe Premiere)"

It looks like the WINTV PVR 150 does not support DV-AVI.

As others advised, to capture VHS as DV, look for a used PYRO A /V Link capture device from ADS or a used ADVC55 from Canopus, but they will not be as inexpensive as most used MPEG-2 TV cards.

Nothing capable of capturing in 1080i or 1080p resolution will be cheap. The HD TV cards I have seen either capture a TV transport stream as-is or convert it to H.264. I looked at Blackmagic's Intensity cards a while back They are the only ones I have seen that can capture HD input as uncompressed video. I hope you have some very large hard drives, if you plan to do that.

[DereX888]

Hello

I would really like to convert all my old VCR tapes into digital content.
Most of those tapes if not all of them were recorded via composite so the quality is really not that high.

My issue is that I currently have this Hauppauge PVR-150 TV card with composite input that lets me record from the VCR, BUT - it has this hardware MPEG-2 encoder that just saves all my captured recording as MPEG-2 video with me having no control what so ever on the final video.
I can convert it later to DivX but the card built in MPEG-2 encoder really messed up the video source already (+the audio sync..).

Besides, I just hate MPEG-2 content, its so 1996.
I would prefer a cheap used card that can capture an uncompressed video stream, leaving me the flexibility to encode it later with DivX or maybe even MPEG-4 AVC for best quality and size.

That card can even have only composite input, as all my content are old video tapes.
I would prefer a card that can capture uncompressed video up to 1080 whice can uses me for future capturing, but I'm guessing i don't have the $$$ for those type of cards yet

Thanks in advance for your help

You say MPEG-2 is so 1996 and you want 1080 AVCHD... well, I hate to spell it out for you, but do you realize analog VCRs are so 1978?
As previous posters said, you want 10 gallon bucket for 3 drops of water. Doesn't make sense. Its like converting VCD to BluRay...


If you have a DV camera with pass-thru and neccessary inputs, you may capture your video in DV. It's not raw/uncompressed, but still it is probably the least compressed avi you can get without buying anything (assuming you have such DV cam).o
Look, 640x480 uncompressed avi would be already more resolution than you need, more than what you have stored on those tapes.
If you don't have DV camcorder, you can get any cheap chinese unknown-brand capture card (capable of standard resolution uncompressed avi capture) and be done with it for probably $20.

[lordsmurf]

Aja Kona card with SDI, maybe? I think they all run on Mac.
You'll need a new VCR.

This is an answer to what you've asked.
But it's not really what you need to be doing, however.

[guns1inger]

Do you have a multi-terrabyte Raid array running 10000rpm discs ?

Uncompressed 1080 is going to need a lot of very fast disk - not the sort of thing you find in your average home PC.

[BJ_M]

lets see - it is what I'm using for uncompressed HD (good news it is less than 1/4 the cost of 3 years ago)


HP Z800 Workstation
• Windows Vista® Business 64
• Two (2) Intel® Xeon® Processors X5570, 2.93 GHz, 8 MB cache, 1333 MHz memory, Quad-Core
• HP 6GB (6x1GB) DDR3-1333 ECC 2-CPU RAM
• NVIDIA Quadro FX4800 1.5GB PCIe Graphics
• HP 320GB SATA 7200 1st HDD
• 16X DVD+/- RW DL Writer SuperMulti
• Integrated HD Realtek ALC262 Audio
• HP PS/2 Standard Keyboard
• HP USB optical scroll mouse
• 850W 85% Efficient Chassis
Pioneer BDR-202BK Black Blu-Ray Burner
DeckLink HD Extreme
Matrox CompressHD
Blackmagic Design HDLink Pro.


for drive array:
G-SPEED eS PRO XL storage system with (12) removable disk drives modules, 2 meter mini-SAS cable
Supports multi-stream SD, ProRes 422, uncompressed HD & 2K DPX workflows


This above will set you back about $30,000 without monitors and hard drives (scsi 320) and software - figure on another 20,000 min if you use cheap monitors and not to fancy software.

then a source HD - can run from 60k to a million depending on a number of factors - mights as well get min. 2k throughout ...

the network hardware will run you another 3-5k min.

[xyzxyz]

lol.. just wanted to rip some VHS tapes..
See.. most of my tapes are family videos.. some of the persons on those videos are no longer with us today and I hate seeing this PVR-150 card making our poor quality memories even poorer..
I guess all I need is a better capture card (still prefer one with non MPEG-2 encoding though..)

Thank you all for helping me, really appreciate you guys for explaining me all the different methods and advantages/disadvantages of my subject.

The PVR-150 is supposed to be able to do AVI capturing. I have the PVR-350 which uses a different chipset and the 350 definitely cannot do AVI capturing, but I'm positive that I read that the 150 can. Have you tried that? While the PVR-250 and 350 are top notch cards, the 150 is a completely different animal. The 250 and 350 work for basically everyone who installs them (I have never had a sync issue with mine). The 150 works for some people and others have nothing but problems. That's just the nature of the card. And if you have problems with this card, there probably is nothing you can do to fix them.

You right, that card is a piece of junk..
I know that there are 2 or maybe 3 versions of it.. I guess I've bought the cheapest one..
I can't really check if it supports AVI encoding, whenever I try to stream the video in VirtualDubMod or any other video editing program, I just can't get the video to work.
Heck, sometimes it doesn't want to display anything even with it's own software..
(Edit: usually_quiet says it doesn't support AVI and for that reason doesn't work with any video editing software, so ignore that paragraph).

I have not personally seen a video capture card capable of recording VHS input at 1080. Perhaps a card exists somewhere that can do that, but I don't know about it. I'm finding it difficult to understand why you want to do this since VHS tape has a resolution lower than DVD. One source says its roughly equivalent to 333x480. I don't think that capturing VHS at 1080 is going to look very good.

Oh.. I meant that it would be nice to have a card which combine digital 1080 capture for FUTURE video captures (not from the VCR but from a real 1080 source)..
Just wanted to know if I should invest a few more $$ on a card that can do both Analog SD and Digital HD.. never meant to capture anything in other then its native resolution.. so we cleared that big BIG misunderstanding out

I have put hundreds of VHS tapes on DVDs and I really believe jman98 is correct. You are doing good if you can get your tape close to DVD quality.

DVD quality is better then VHS, no doubt. My problem is that the hardware encoder doesn't make it even close to DVD quality.. My mother can actually tell the difference between the source and the VHS-Rip on our SDTV.

If you don't have DV camcorder, you can get any cheap chinese unknown-brand capture card (capable of standard resolution uncompressed avi capture) and be done with it for probably $20.

I don't understand.. everyone here saying that it will cost me a small fortune to buy an uncompressed SD capture card and you telling me I can get one for 20 bucks?
Or is everyone still under the impression i meant a 1080 uncompressed capture card?
thx for the camcorder tip, got 3 neighbors with digital cam, I will check to see if they've got pass-thru


The reason I was looking for an uncompressed video capture card from the first place is that 1.5TB Hard Drives are very cheap now days, and I was looking for a way to keep the video captures untouched for a while..
See.. I only got limited number of VHS tapes (25/30) to convert to digital and since that number is final I can live with the wasted hard drive space, no biggie.
I mean.. Every 5 years or so there is a new, more efficient, less space consuming encoding, and just like 2GB of HD content looks twice as good as 4GB DVD content, who can tell what will be in the very near future.. I like to keep my options open instead of messing up the source forever.

As you can understand I'm pretty paranoid about the video quality bit by bit, but it's probably just because of my bad experience with the PVR-150.. I trust your opinion when you're all saying there is no reason in uncompressed capturing, especially when the price/outcome value is absurd.

In short, I like to be in control when it comes to my encoding, so I prefer using software encoding on my videos. It just has much more flexibility then hardware encoding (clearing the frames, cropping edges, 2/3passes, filters, etc..).
But I understand that this is a very expensive issue, so I guess what I basically want, is hardware encoder which will leave me the best possible source (on humble budget) to work with (DV-AVI?)

I understand there are 2 options:
1. Capture card that support DV-AVI like the recommended ADVC55.
2. Camcorder with pass-true and a firewire cable.

The result of both options supposed to be exactly the same, right? just a matter of convenience?

Thank you for reading my doctoral thesis lol

[usually_quiet]

@xyzxyz: There are a few things I'd like to clear up.

The Canopus ADVC55 and the ADS PYRO A /V Link are both external devices that require a firewire port to connect to a home computer.

I work exclusively with MPEG-2 TV captures. MPEG-2 video can be edited with the right software, just not the programs intended only for use with DV. Good MPEG-2 editing software only re-encodes a few frames around cuts, so very little is lost. However DV is better if you want to use filters and process the video to remove various kinds of noise or correct other problems.

You may need a TBC between the VCR and the capture device to get a good result. You may also need a better VCR for playback. Producing good-quality VHS capture is as much an art as a science. There are some guides and lots of threads available on this website on the subject of capturing VHS. You have a lot or reading to do.

[hech54]

You right, that card is a piece of junk..

Who told you this card is junk? Someone must have told you it was junk
because I doubt you've even used it correctly yet. This statement alone:

saves all my captured recording as MPEG-2 video with me having no control what so ever on the final video

...leaves me with serious doubts.

[xyzxyz]

The Canopus ADVC55 and the ADS PYRO A /V Link are both external devices that require a firewire port to connect to a home computer.

Got onboard firewire.. hope its good enough..

You may need a TBC between the VCR and the capture device to get a good result. You may also need a better VCR for playback. Producing good-quality VHS capture is as much an art as a science. There are some guides and lots of threads available on this website on the subject of capturing VHS. You have a lot or reading to do.

Will do, BTW - Is there any sense in capturing from the component output of a VCR for a video which was originally recorded via the composite input? I'm sure I saw some VCRs with component.. but then again, maybe they were DVD+VCR and the component belongs to the DVD part..

You right, that card is a piece of junk..

Who told you this card is junk? Someone must have told you it was junk
because I doubt you've even used it correctly yet.

Its just my frustration with the specific card of mine, it keeps showing me blank screen on the composite input when my receiver is connected and on and it keeps hanging in 2 different system at my house (both are Core 2 Duo).
When it finally agree that there is a composite source to record from, the only capturing option I've got in the WinTV software is a 5 or 6 resolution to choose from..
As I was saying, I couldn't get the card to work with any other software. Being limited to the manufacture mercys is just the worst.. It would be nice to have a card that is supported by all the big video capturing softwares..

[Cornucopia]

Well, I'd look at it from an End-to-end systems approach.

You've got VHS tapes as input. You want Highest Quality possible SD avi files on Harddrives as output.

Ok. So, uncompressed AVI is RGB 24bit. There are a number of cards that can do either that or uncompressed 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 YUV (the next-best, and next-next best things).

But don't stop there, because alot depends on the quality of the signal at the input.
Others here may have other opinions, but I myself can tell the difference between RGB24bit SDavi captured via composite vs. S-video vs. component (yes, EVEN for VHS, given the right source deck).

Now, there aren't very many VHS-capable decks that have component output, even the best of the pro decks, and they're $$$$. But, there's not much wrong with S-video (for VHS source), and many of the better VHS and SVHS decks have that.

Why did I say SVHS? Because pro SVHS decks usually have MUCH better electronics on the decoding side than do their VHS counterparts. Some of the great pro SVHS decks, then, will have High bandwidth, hybrid 2d+3d comb filtering for great chroma separation, SVideo outputs,...AND...a full-featured line TBC built-in. Like I used to use: a Panasonic AG-DS555.

And you might want to throw in a pro full-frame TBC in there as well (both get things the other one doesn't). And you want to have all 3 be Genlocked to a master sync source (bars&tone/black generator), and ALL with Power conditioning (makes a difference!!!).

So what's all that cost?
1. ~$500 for a used Canopus card that can do composite+Svideo+DV in
2. ~$2500 for a used pro SVHS deck (and a little more for an engineer to bring it back to pristine condition)
3. ~$500 for a used Pro TBC
4. ~$200 for sync gen
5. ~$200 for power conditioning (furman, etc)
6. ~$100 for all the cabling
7. ~$500 for a VERY good used monitor (or at least one good enought with which to discern all these differences in quality)

PLUS, you're going to need a different computer that the one you've got, because the DRIVERS for such used cap cards may not be compatible with the system you're currently using. Let's guess at a Win2K machine. So another, fully stocked PC, with plenty of HD space (30 tapes * 2Hrs each = 60 Hrs, but let's say 100 Hrs, = 360k seconds. At 270Mbps, that's ~12 TeraBytes to hold them all). So

8. ~$4000 (just a guess on that one, haven't speced in a while)

You're still looking at just shy of $10k!

--OR--

You could take your tapes to a PRO Video Xfer service shop. Even if they charge $100/hour (this used to be normal for Xfer, but I'd guess it's high now), they're just getting to the same price as doing it yourself. More likely, they charge will charge less, especially if you do it as a contracted bulk or serial deal for the whole job of all tapes. Heck, if I still had the equipment, I'd do it for $50/hour. So now you're down to $5k to get it all done, by people who know what they're doing and have the equipment to do it right. Just make sure the credentials are correct and get samples first (no $ if the quality isn't what you expected, etc). They give you files of your choice on a disc or your choice. Lot less hassle for you...

That's my take.

Scott

[lordsmurf]

Well, I'd look at it from an End-to-end systems approach.
You've got VHS tapes as input. You want Highest Quality possible SD avi files on Harddrives as output.
Ok. So, uncompressed AVI is RGB 24bit. There are a number of cards that can do either that or uncompressed 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 YUV (the next-best, and next-next best things).

Exactly. DV is not an ideal capture format. (Consumer DV25 NTSC 4:1:1)
Explained at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/video-8-capture-1614.html

--OR--
You could take your tapes to a PRO Video Xfer service shop. ........ More likely, they charge will charge less, especially if you do it as a contracted bulk or serial deal for the whole job of all tapes. ......... people who know what they're doing and have the equipment to do it right. ........ They give you files of your choice on a disc or your choice. Lot less hassle for you...

Yep. This is the sort of work I do every day, too.

VHS to DVD may sound easy when Best Buy offers $50 devices in the ads (crap devices with impossible promises, I might add!), but after you get started, you realize it's not that easy. Good quality costs a few bucks more, involves a LOT more equipment than originally thought, and it takes a lot of time to learn the hardware and software needed to tackle the project. Either pay a pro and get it done, or spend months/years sitting at a computer churning out lower quality for the same price (or more!) as a pro would have charged you.

I do want to add, however, that those "tape to DVD" or "film to DVD" stores found in a shopping center usually aren't very good. If video were food, you'd want a restaurant with an experienced chef. Those places are more like Taco Bell or McDonald's -- not an establishment with a gourmet menu.

[hech54]

Its just my frustration with the specific card of mine, it keeps showing me blank screen on the composite input when my receiver is connected

Go straight from the VCR to the card...and use the shortest, best quality cable you own.

Ithe only capturing option I've got in the WinTV software is a 5 or 6 resolution to choose from

That's all I have too(resolution is not the proper term for it however). The 12.0mBit/sec MPEG setting is higher than DVD standard allows. It leaves you a little headroom for filtering or what-have-you.

It would be nice to have a card that is supported by all the big video capturing softwares..

Yes it would...no arguments there...but I honestly don't think you've fully explored the option you have already.

[victoriabears]

A lot of posts, but I might have missed it, why not try a dvd recorder, get one, try it for a few days, of not liked, return it if that option is available in Israel.

TMPG Mpeg editor is very good in my experience.

Start simple, see if you like the results, if not , then start adding options, like a TBC and other suggestions made by the very experienced other members.

[LostEncoder]

I'm a newbie here, but I think the core of original poster's idea is logical. I think it does make sense to rip videos in an uncompressed format so that nothing is lost. Yes, if you're capturing at a higher resolution than the source, you are capturing noise, but the noise will be there anyway because it's old VHS. And the last thing I would want to do is run that noise through a MPEG codec (better to encode after filtering). The idea is that you want to preserve all the content (signal + noise) as it is now so that it does not degrade further with time. Hard drives are relatively cheap compared to memories. The other factor to consider is that digital processing technology has been improving with time and probably will be better in the future (smarter / more sophisticated algorithms, artificial-intelligence, who knows). So if you just want to preserve it, it does seem like the best way to do that is capture everything. Capturing raw requires less hardware logic than compressed, no?

[sanlyn]

I think it does make sense to rip videos in an uncompressed format so that nothing is lost.

I mostly agree, but please...stop using the word rip unless you mean rip. It's a bit ripping to keep seeing people rip words like rip, it's annoying enough to make one want to rip an aspirin.

[LostEncoder]

I think it does make sense to rip videos in an uncompressed format so that nothing is lost.

I mostly agree, but please...stop using the word rip unless you mean rip. It's a bit ripping to keep seeing people rip words like rip, it's annoying enough to make one want to rip an aspirin.

Sorry, I see your point and will stop using that word in video contexts. I hear it used a lot in place of the word copy.

[smrpix]

..

[theewizard]

i think sayln was yanking your chain

AFAIK rip does mean copy, direct copy of files and folders ( no change of format of Any kind )

too many people use Rip, when they mean convert

they will say rip to AVI Mkv etc..

then again, langauge and SLANG evolves and changes and meanings and context change

[sanlyn]

Yeah, I hope I didn't sound furious. "Rip" is a pet peeve in the forum. Used incorrectly, it often leads to a lot of bad advice and resulting angst for the recipient. Sorry if it came off the wrong way

[jagabo]

Oops, wrong thread.

[theewizard]

I caught your drift

i'm electrician and technician by trade 'retired' and people are always saying 'short' when they mean 'No connection',
no power to the fuse, pump, light "i must have a short"

Nope .. a short will burn something and let all the 'magic blue smoke' out of your wiring
you have a bad connection

yeah i understand pet peeves

Yeah, I hope I didn't sound furious. "Rip" is a pet peeve in the forum. Used incorrectly, it often leads to a lot of bad advice and resulting angst for the recipient. Sorry if it came off the wrong way

[LostEncoder]

So they really meant to say an "open" instead of a "short".

In any case, can anyone recommend a USB video capture device that can capture in uncompressed format? All it has to do is simply have a very good analog to digital converter, no need for extra hardware logic for compression as my computer can handle that part. I want to first preserve the raw copy and then eventually filter it before encoding to DVD, Blu-Ray or whatever comes along in the future. My logic is that I don't want the hardware to attempt to compress noise as that will only degrade quality. I want to preserve the signal while eliminating as much noise as possible before compression. Capture -> filter -> compress rather than capture -> compress -> uncompress -> filter -> compress.

[Videogamer555]

Speed 30fps
FrameH 1080lines
FrameW 1920pixels
ColorChanels 3channels
ColorDepth 1byte

BytesPerSecond = 1920*1080*3*30 = 186,624,000
MBytesPerSecond = BytesPerSecond/(1024^2) = 178


To record raw (uncompressed) RGB video at 1080p 30fps you would need to have a storage device capable of writting at a rate of at least 178 MB/s which isn't all that fast. Any modern HDD; in fact any HDD that isn't basically an antique (read as "any HDD that has been made after the year 2000") should be capable of easily writing 178MB/s.

And even if your main PC's HDD isn't that fast, the video camera should be equiped either with a builtin high speed HDD or solidstate storage that it would write to for temporary storage, and then output from there over a slower connection (like USB) or to a slower medium (such as a typical SD card, which is slower than a magnetic HDD, as SD cards are flash memory, and flash-mem is inherently slow). Then once transfered directly to the desired computer over USB or Firewire (or indirectly via a flash memory card), you can then procede to compress the video for viewing on a conventional device (such as a DVD player), while maintaining your raw/uncompressed "master" copy. In fact once you have than uncompressed master copy, you can throw away your analog original source, as you now have a perfect digital copy. Truth to be told, there is NO reason to avoid raw video format. If your main PC's HDD is too small, just get a bigger one and use it for dedicated video storage. Any 1TB (or larger) drive should be easilly enough for the storage or raw video, even for a 2hour long "feature film" like StarWars. In fact with a modern PC and a decent video camera that can film in raw format, almost anybody now can make movies that are just like the pro Hollywood movies, and use raw format for editing just like pro movie editors use.

I don't see why people would ever suggest that you NOT use raw (if it is available to you). Raw is ALWAYS the best.

[jagabo]

178 MB/s... Any modern HDD... should be capable of easily writing 178MB/s.

Wrong. For example, a 4 TB WD Black writes from about 70 to 150 MB/s:

http://forums.tweaktown.com/storage-devices-methods/51018-western-digital-black-4tb-ve...tb-review.html

Even the 1 TB Velociraptor can barely exceed 178 MB/s at the very outer edge of the platters.

[Brad]

Oh boy. Anytime someone starts quoting RGB numbers for capture stats, you know they haven't been doing too many captures lately.

1920x1080 29.97 fps YUY2 data rate: 994332672 bits/sec = 124291584 bytes/sec = 121.38 MiB/sec

But who captures uncompressed? My CPU is sitting there idling while my HDD is getting a workout. Throw Ut Video Codec at that data rate and you cut it down by 3:1 on typical content.