WDTV Live (non Plus)

[stiltman]

Thought I'd start a new topic on this player.
I'm picking one up tonight. The main feature I like in the new one is component output.

Here's the BestBuy link

Here's a link to the AVS Forum topic

Here's a like to WDTV Forum topic

Here's a link to the B-Rad website. This is where to go for the modded OS

I'll post my first impressions after I get one

Edit: add links

[Loader09]

this looks like its going to be really good. I just found out about their players and read about them a week ago, sigh i wish i had moneyy lolzz

[jagabo]

I'll post my first impressions after I get one :)

Looking forward to your report. It sounds like navigation is much faster with the new version.

[bmo]

Looking forward to your impressions as well. I have the first version, and while it's a great player by itself, it was missing a few key features that the new version has (ethernet, component out, dts decoding). If you could test the dts decoding capabilities that would be awesome.

[ChiMarticus2]

Bummer! BB has it currently Back-ordered On-Line, 1-2 week wait estimated, but may be available at some store locations, but unfortunately again, not in my immediate area.

[stiltman]

I bought it at BB. They had 2 on the shelf. The price at the register was $139.99. I told them the website listed it at $119.99, they checked and honored the website price.

I unboxed it.
First impressions, the cables leave MUCH to be desired. Very skinny
I have it hooked up to my older HDTV via component. It automatically found the component output and set it at 480i. First impression of the menu, well it's different than the first model. Guess they had to change it up because of the added features. Kinda strange getting used too. Not bad, but you end up using the back button and navigation left arrow to get back to the top menu. The menu system seems about the same to me speed wize. I don't see how people are saying it MUCH faster.

I went to change the video settings and it strangely had composite listed, even though I was viewing it via component. I changed it to component and then to 1080i/60 which is the max for my TV. This changed the picture quality too WAY better than it was before. All the text was VERY clear.

I shut down the system, and inserted my 2 WD 500GB portable HDDs
Turned on the system. It took about 1 minute for it to scan both drives.
I went into settings and changed video to list view

They did add a new view to the video section. It's called preview. It will show the list view on the left side and on the right side it plays the video and also lists the file type/size/genre

I went to video and then all video. It had all my videos listed for both drives.
I picked one of my highest bitrate Xvid AVIs, it was like 5200kbs. It played perfect. The picture quality was much better than the original model connected via composite and the same as connected via HDMI -->DVI.
Hit FF and then Play, there is still the 3-4 second lag before the sound comes on. No chapter support via next button. If you FF then hit next while FF, it will skip 10mins. I don't know if the original did that or not.

Next up, MKVs. Played them perfectly.

Zoom went 1.1x, 1.2x, 2x, 4x, 8x

I would say the upscaler in this player is much better than my TV and also much better than my Samsung HTIB.
However you can tell it's upscaling. The picture quality also seems a bit darker. Not sure yet. I was concentrating on darker videos to see if there was much pixilation. I compared 2 videos, both from the same exact source. 1 encoded Xvid at 94% constant quality and the other encoded H.264 at 65% constant quality. The H.264 looked better. I looked at both of them zoomed in at 4x. The H.264 really won out big time.

All my encodes have the original AC3 audio, and when you play a video it will tell you for 2-3 secs what audio stream is playing.

What most people want to hear about
Sorry, I do not have a network connection yet. I did try a USB wireless dongle, but I knew it wouldn't work. It's a FA1200G and it takes a special driver. It actually locked up the player while trying to power down. I pulled it out and the system then shut down. I knew WDTV's were picky about the wireless adapters.

I didn't try hooking it up via my HTIB HDMI input. The original wouldn't work that way and I doubt this one will because it went from 1.2 to 1.3 compliance

I will have to download some HD test clips to see the real picture quality hooked up via component.
In any event, I'm keeping it, as it has component output and it looks better than the original I had hooked up via composite. It will also allow me to hook up wireless without using one of those modded OSs. Funny how they call it firmware when it's just Linux I'll also most likely hook up the toslink output to my HTIB for full surround sound.

From reading, it doesn't support USB hubs
It turns off power to the USB portable drives when you turn the unit off. I like that! Not just stopping the spining, but all power.

[jagabo]

Thanks for the report. This post has links to some challenging high def files:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17329247#post17329247

Regarding navigation speed, did you have it in thumbnail mode? I seem to recall that's what was really slow with the original WDTV.

[stiltman]

Thanks for the report. This post has links to some challenging high def files:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17329247#post17329247

Regarding navigation speed, did you have it in thumbnail mode? I seem to recall that's what was really slow with the original WDTV.

Yeah, I've been through the AVS thread

No thumbnails, so I never use that view. That was until I heard that naming a small jpg the same as the movie would show you a thumbnail(broken in network viewing). Plus someone at AVS posted a link to a movie poster site that they use. Guess I have to figure out what the thumbnail size has to be in order to work.

Here's what I plan on doing
Folder for each rating system (G, PG, PG13, R/Unrated)
folder.jpg of the rating
Then in each folder have all the movies with their associated jpg thumbnail

[jagabo]

I don't like thumbnails and prefer to see as much text information as possible. Like Windows Explorer in Details mode.

[stiltman]

If you are wondering which wireless adapters work, here's the link
http://products.wdc.com/library/other/WDTVLive_Wireless_Adapter_Compatibility_List.pdf

It was a pain, as google search kept going to the same page and the same link kept going to their KB article for USB drives

Finally on the third try, it went to this pdf

Belkin F5D8055 Wireless N+ USB Adapter
Belkin F5D8051 N1 Wireless USB Adapter
Buffalo WLI-UC-G300HP Nfiniti™ Wireless-N High Power Compact USB 2.0 Adapter
Buffalo WLI-UC-G300N Nfiniti™ Wireless-N Compact USB 2.0 Adapter
Buffalo WLI-UC-GN Nfiniti™ Wireless-N Ultra Compact USB 2.0 Adapter
D-Link DWA-140 RangeBooster N® USB Adapter
EnGenius EUB-9701 Wireless-N USB Adapter
Linksys WUSB100 RangePlus Wireless Network USB Adapter
Linksys WUSB600N Wireless-N USB Network Adapter with Dual-Band
TRENDnet TEW-644UB Wireless N USB Adapter
TRENDnet TEW-645UB High Power Wireless N USB Adapter
TRENDnet TEW-664UB 300Mbps Dual Band Wireless N USB Adapter
Sitecom WL-329 Wireless Dualband USB Adapter

I'm not going to get one unless they fix the broken USB hub support, or untill the modded version comes out for USB hubs and DVD-Roms

[stiltman]

Well, it looks like the ppl at AVS are complaining about upscaled SD picture quality compared to the original WDTV. I'll do some more testing and also hook it up via HDMI-->DVI to see if that makes a difference. I knew there was a difference between the 2, but for me it's not a deal breaker. It still looks better hooked up via component as apposed to composite. That's the whole reason I wanted it.

[T-Fish]

was the remote control bug addressed ?
i got a samsung le40b530 which is the main reason i didn't get a wdtv.

couldn't see anything related to that problem..

[stiltman]

What remote bug?
At least for me, I had no problems with the WDTV and now the WD Live TV

[ChiMarticus2]

What remote bug?
At least for me, I had no problems with the WDTV and now the WD Live TV

Thanks stiltman for all your info. Please continue on with any further experiences.

I expect to get one whenever becomes available again at local BestBuy or on-line. Wow, Christmas comes early for me, as WD Live TV, Official Win7 Release and a HTPC i7 is immediate.

[Squash]

was the remote control bug addressed ?
i got a samsung le40b530 which is the main reason i didn't get a wdtv.

couldn't see anything related to that problem..

It looks like it's been taken care of.

A few months ago I described my fix for the Samsung remote/WDTV problem in this post:
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic358929-480.html#1979631
When I got the WDTV2 last night, that's one of the things I checked, so I'd know whether to transfer my mylar films from the WDTV1 to the WDTV2.

Fortunately, with the WDTV2, I've had no problems with the remote malfunctioning in any of the Samsung's energy-saver modes.

Of course, YMMV based on the IR reflectivity of your room, or unknown factors, but on my TV (a Samsung LNA40A650), it's no longer an issue.
I'm sure there'll be other reports on this as time goes by, but it looks OK so far.

[The old guy]

I have V1 so I picked up V2 so as to compare.

Detected HDMI connection, detected and connected to wired network on first power up! Powers up faster than V1 in my opinion even with 2 500G passports connected to it.

Played several .TS, MPG, Xvid AVI's, Windows WMV, and .MKV over the network. Every once in awhile video would stop and I'd see an error of lost the network connection. Power off and then on and same video played just fine. That only happened twice. Dunno what that is all about.

Using ClownBD, I usually convert DTS to AC3. Converted XMEN and kept DTS in there and video and DTS audio played just fine on V2. I'm not using the passthru to a receiver.

The only gotcha I have found so far is I have a Thermaltake BlacX docking station. V2 did not detect the drive in the dock using USB connection to computer. Changed BlacX to the ESATA and it detected the drive and played the .TS files on that drive with no glitches.

And I feel V2 the remote and the menus respond faster. Overall I'm very pleased with V2.

[misterbill]

Well, it looks like the ppl at AVS are complaining about upscaled SD picture quality compared to the original WDTV. I'll do some more testing and also hook it up via HDMI-->DVI to see if that makes a difference. I knew there was a difference between the 2, but for me it's not a deal breaker. It still looks better hooked up via component as apposed to composite. That's the whole reason I wanted it.

Come-on Stiltman, you can't leave these people hanging on the PQ issue. Tell them what the ppl at AVS know.

[Rudyard]

Hey Stiltman, can you use chapters on MKV files?

[jagabo]

Come-on Stiltman, you can't leave these people hanging on the PQ issue. Tell them what the ppl at AVS know.

Here are a few posts I saw:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17348246#post17348246
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17348650#post17348650
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17349122#post17349122

Note that these three posts were from the same person and in the last one he says picture quality was fine, it was a setup issue. I'm still reading through the thread...

<edit> later in the avsforum thread the same guy was complaining again. A few others too. </edit>

I picked one up last night. I don't have the first version to compare to but running a few quick torture tests with it connected to my Samsung LNT 4665 via HDMI at 1080p60 RGB (pixel for pixel mapping) it looks pretty good. Scaling is about the same as my Nvidia 8600 GT and Philips DVP-5990 at the same settings on the same TV. I'll report more about the device later.

[stiltman]

Hey Stiltman, can you use chapters on MKV files?

Nope., well I should qualify that.
You can't hit the skip button and go to the next chapter.
You can hit FF, then skip and that will move 10mins ahead
You can hit option and then select chapters (far right) and then select chapters that way. However, it's stops the movie.


PQ issue, I don't have it. I think it's a setup issue with everyone and myself included.
I adjusted my Contrast, Brightness, Color, and Sharpness on my TV and it looks REAL great now.
I had to boost everything except sharpness just a little bit. I decreased sharpness just a hair.

I did a few tests, and found no difference between WDTV1 and 2 on HDMI-->DVI. They were exactly the same in PQ.
I did another test comparing my Samsung HTIB via HDMI-->DVI compared to my WDTV2 via component.

Same exact movie ~5200kbs Xvid .avi
Both units were set to upscale to 1080i/60
Both units were set to upscale to 720p/60
Both units were set to 480i

The WDTV2 blew away my HTIB by a WIDE margin. The quality was just SO MUCH better, I couldn't believe it. It's too bad my TV can't negotiate HDCP like it's claimed to do. Cuase now I want to get a new surround sound system. However, my Toshiba HD-DVD doesn't work via HDMI-->DVI so I doubt any modern surrounds will too. I don't think there are any upscaling DVD/component/Surround systems out there anymore... Not going to replace the TV yet

[jagabo]

I'll start at the beginning:

1) Output

I connected the WDTV2 to my Samsung LNT 4665 via HDMI and set it up to output 1920x1080p60 RGB. The TV is set to "just scan", Samsung's pixel-for-pixel mode with no overscan. I used a 1920x1080 Belle Nuit test chart to verify that each pixel of a source image and video is displayed pixel for pixel all the way from the file to the HDTV.

An uncompressed BMP of the Belle Nuit chart viewed in slideshow mode filled the screen perfectly and there was perfect pixel-for-pixel mapping. The individual lines in the "1" area, both vertical and horizontal, were fully resolved, both black/white and red/blue.

This is harder to test with video because most compressed format use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling. This causes the thin colored lines to be blurred together. The black and white lines aren't effected by this. I couldn't find any non sub sampled video formats the WDTV2 supports so I just converted the image file to a 1920x1080 square pixel Xvid AVI (4:2:0 subsampling). The WDTV2 showed perfect pixel-for-pixel mapping of the black/white lines. The colored lines were blurred, as expected.

Conclusion: I can get perfect pixel-for-pixel mapping all the way from a 1920x1080 image or video to the screen of the HDTV. Scaling of any other frame size will be done solely by the WDTV2. The HDTV will not resize the image again so what I see on the screen is strictly a product of the WDTV2's scaling. Since the WDTV is set up to output 1920x1080 progressive there will be no deinterlacing within the HDTV.

I have my HTPC set up the same way so I can directly compare the WDTV's playback with the computer's. I'm using a Nvidia 8600 GT with Windows XP Pro SP3. Most tests from the computer were run with MPCHC.


2) (up)Scaling

Looking at 720x480 4:3 DAR MPEG files with sharp, high contrast edges, it appears the WDTV2 is using a Bicubic upscaling filter. Similar to VirtualDub's precise bicubic resizing filter and AviSynth's BicubicResize(). This causes a little overshoot and undershoot at sharp edges. It enhances noise and DCT ringing artifacts. Upscaling is very similar to the computer with MPCHC set to use the "EVR Custom Pre" with Bicubic A=0.75. I usually use EVR's Precise Bilinear which isn't as sharp but avoids those over sharpening artifacts.


3) Deinterlacing

I ran several interlaced MPEG test files through the WDTV2. It does not suffer from the common "chroma upsampling error" that many players (hardware and software) display. It shows no blending between the the two fields' chroma channels.

It appears to use something slightly better than a simple Bob. When playing some standard definition animated material most high contrast horizontal edges bounce and flicker. Very similar to VLC's Bob deinterlacer. I don't have a WDTV1 to compare to. KMPlayer's ffmpeg deinterlacer works better.


I'll post some more tomorrow about playback containers and codecs...

[T-Fish]

was the remote control bug addressed ?
i got a samsung le40b530 which is the main reason i didn't get a wdtv.

couldn't see anything related to that problem..

It looks like it's been taken care of.

A few months ago I described my fix for the Samsung remote/WDTV problem in this post:
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic358929-480.html#1979631
When I got the WDTV2 last night, that's one of the things I checked, so I'd know whether to transfer my mylar films from the WDTV1 to the WDTV2.

Fortunately, with the WDTV2, I've had no problems with the remote malfunctioning in any of the Samsung's energy-saver modes.

Of course, YMMV based on the IR reflectivity of your room, or unknown factors, but on my TV (a Samsung LNA40A650), it's no longer an issue.
I'm sure there'll be other reports on this as time goes by, but it looks OK so far.

that sounds good so far, thank you

[MJA]

does anyone own the ASUS O!Play and WDTV2?

btw I think the WD was selling for less than $70 few days at newegg.com using a %10 off coupon

[jagabo]

btw I think the WD was selling for less than $70 few days at newegg.com using a %10 off coupon

Probably the older WDTV. Or the Mini version.

[MJA]

btw I think the WD was selling for less than $70 few days at newegg.com using a %10 off coupon

Probably the older WDTV. Or the Mini version.

you are right.it's the mini.

[stiltman]

The mini will do Realmedia encoded files, but doesn't do HD

[stiltman]

I'll start at the beginning:

snip snip snip


I'll post some more tomorrow about playback containers and codecs...

Great technical review.

[stiltman]

Here's a great write up by B-Rad (the WDTV alternate OS modder)
http://b-rad.cc/974/wdtv-live-unboxing-undressing

Now I'm looking forward to his WDTV2 modded OS to support DVD drives and USB hubs

[yoda313]

So is the only major difference between the wdtv2 and the original model the ethernet port?

I don't really need that and I barely use my wdtv as it is. Now if I didn't have a ps3, xbox360, and my vista pc hooked up to my hdtv with cable internet I'd be more interested.

So this also has network sharing ability as well as interent access? Does it support a keyboard or is it just remote control only with its own point and click browser?

It is an interesting change to the unit but I am not in the market for it.

But thanks stiltman for giving the update.

[jagabo]

It can access files on Windows (or other SMB) shares. Windows computers can see the files on its attached USB drive. It has native support for YouTube right now. It has a lot more RAM and internal flash memory so lots of future updates are possible. I'm hoping for Hulu.com and NetFlix support someday. In the mean time (or maybe forever) I'll check out PlayOn.

No keyboard support. Same remote. Same GUI but faster (so I hear -- I haven't used the original). Like the original it runs Linux and is open source. It has a lot more RAM and flash memory so there's lots of room for growth.