U.S. court rules software owned, not licensed!!!

[deadrats]

file this under the "i can't believe i'm reading this" section:

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/AutoCAD-Autodesk-Court-License-Software,news-4806.html

But there may now be some hope for consumers. In its battle to prevent the second-hand sale of its software, Autodesk has discovered that the "products are licensed" theory just doesn't jive with the government. According to Out-Law, the US District Court for the Western District of Washington is backing eBay retailer Timothy Vernor who was selling legitimate copies of Autodesk software in his eBay store.

this has huge ramifications, for years people, including myself, felt that once you bought a piece of software, such as a copy of windows, we should be allowed to install the same copy on as many computers as we owned, software companies, such as microsoft, obviously disagreed since clearly their business model is based on them getting a fee for every single install and in the process, through numerous pieces of legislation that they bought and paid for and numerous lawsuits, they managed to enforce their view point and make a shit load of money on the process.

i know i have engaged in numerous debates, mostly online but also in person, with those that felt the 1 licensed copy per install model was not only just but it was immoral of anyone to disagree with said viewpoint (hell, there have been a few debates in this forum along the same lines).

now it seems that there is at least one judge in our legal system that has a functioning brain and has ruled that when you buy software, you actually buy software, not merely receive a license to use it.

and all i can say is it's about damn time!!!

[otpw1]

This is probably going to be appealed......and let the the games begin!

[jagabo]

The ramifications are not huge. The judgement was very narrow and based on the fact that Autodesk's license didn't clearly state the software had to be returned to them at some point in time. All software manufacturers have to do is have their click-through license state this explicitly.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1557653/software-owned-licensed
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/10/06/software_ownership_ruling/

[Noahtuck]

Yeah this should be good.

I don't think you "own" it as in you can alter it and call it your own or sell as many copies of it as you want.

the US District Court for the Western District of Washington is backing eBay retailer Timothy Vernor who was selling legitimate copies of Autodesk software in his eBay store.

But if i have the original windows install disc of XP pro , or autodesk, or any original program disc, and i am no longer going to use it i should be able to sell it or buy as many used original copies and resell them all i want!!
As long as they are all legit!

But i also think if you have an original copy of XP Pro and want to install it on 3 machines YOU own in your own home you should be able to!!
Not let your friends use it, or relatives, but you yourself in your own home on your own personally owned machines.

I have had at least 4 systems going at once in my home for the last umpteen years and it's not cheap installing a full version of windows on each and every one of them!!

Although i must admit i have walked in the "gray" area a couple of times, but only because M$ and or E-Machines wanted to gouge more $$$ out of me/? after already buying a legit copy of windows!!

EDIT:
Okay i see this is more of an "Autodesk" issue.
I have never heard that they want you to return the product to them instead of selling it ?
Do they give you back what it's worth ?

[usually_quiet]

I expect this argument won't be resolved until the Supreme Court rules on it.

As I understand it, if I buy a full license for a Windows OS, I can only install it on one computer at a time. If I get a new computer, I can install it on that one, but I can't continue to use it on the other one too.

If I buy an OEM license for a Windows OS, it is tied to the motherboard on the original machine. I can replace everything but the motherboard, and re-install the OS as many times as I need to, but only if it's on a machine with that motherboard.

This would be terribly unfair, except for the fact that I agreed to it, and an OEM license costs half as much as a full one. If the terms of the license are clearly defined, for example, that I can't resell the software, or I can only use it with an individual motheboard, and I have made an informed decision to abide by those restrictions, then I don't think I'd win a challenge in court.

Lets not forget that a lot of free software comes with licensing agreements too, with provisions such as: I can't use it at my job, or sell it, or sell a product I develop using the open-source code provided for the software. Those agreements would go away as well if software licensing is voided. Where would that leave those who want to provide free software with some restrictions they think are fair?

[ZQX]

Lets not forget that a lot of free software comes with licensing agreements too, with provisions such as: I can't use it at my job, or sell it, or sell a product I develop using the open-source code provided for the software. Those agreements would go away as well if software licensing is voided. Where would that leave those who want to provide free software with some restrictions they think are fair?

That's a GOOD thing! Wrapping laws & restrictions around free software sucks IMO, I don't care what anybody else thinks.

[jman98]

It's pretty far fetched to reason that because you can resell a piece of software that you buy that you are therefore allowed to buy 1 copy and install it on as many computers as you own. That's not at all what the ruling decided.

My guess is that the Supreme Court will not rule on this. The lower courts have been pretty consistent in applying the doctrine of first sale. Maybe finally software companies will get the message that this is fight they cannot win.

@usually_quite - What the heck are you talking about with regards to free software? Almost nothing has any restrictions on selling a product developed under it. Paranoid ramblings do no one any good. List specific examples or go away. Now many free software products do require you to give away the source code with the product if you use the free software to develop your product, but that's not the same as saying you can't sell it. And there are a variety of licensing models for free software such as the GPL and its various successors, Apache, and BSD.

[usually_quiet]

It's pretty far fetched to reason that because you can resell a piece of software that you buy that you are therefore allowed to buy 1 copy and install it on as many computers as you own. That's not at all what the ruling decided.

My guess is that the Supreme Court will not rule on this. The lower courts have been pretty consistent in applying the doctrine of first sale. Maybe finally software companies will get the message that this is fight they cannot win.

@usually_quite - What the heck are you talking about with regards to free software? Almost nothing has any restrictions on selling a product developed under it. Paranoid ramblings do no one any good. List specific examples or go away. Now many free software products do require you to give away the source code with the product if you use the free software to develop your product, but that's not the same as saying you can't sell it. And there are a variety of licensing models for free software such as the GPL and its various successors, Apache, and BSD.

@jman98 You are over-reacting. I never said that all software provided at no cost has all those restrictions. I never mentioned GPL or Apache, or BSD. That was on purpose.

Software publishers don't always have to use those licenses for programs they give away, or source code they decide to make available. They can also choose to create their own terms for licensing what they have written.

I don't remember off hand which one(s) had that restriction on the use of source code, and it is way too much trouble to read through all of them again just to please you.

In any case, you are not a moderator, so who are you to tell me to go away, particularly for making an unsupported statment in an informal discussion?

[RLT69]

so who are you to tell me to go away, particularly for making an unsupported statment in an informal discussion?

Fine, you are a flaming jackass who apparently is a pedophile that likes little boys. I read it somewhere but don't remember where.



You are in breach of the forum rules and are being issued with a formal warning.
/ Moderator Baldrick

[Noahtuck]

It's pretty far fetched to reason that because you can resell a piece of software that you buy that you are therefore allowed to buy 1 copy and install it on as many computers as you own. That's not at all what the ruling decided.

Who said that ?

[TBoneit]

It's pretty far fetched to reason that because you can resell a piece of software that you buy that you are therefore allowed to buy 1 copy and install it on as many computers as you own. That's not at all what the ruling decided.

Who said that ?

Deadrats the OP said:

"this has huge ramifications, for years people, including myself, felt that once you bought a piece of software, such as a copy of windows, we should be allowed to install the same copy on as many computers as we owned, software companies, such as microsoft, obviously disagreed since clearly their business model is based on them getting a fee for every single install and in the process, through numerous pieces of legislation that they bought and paid for and numerous lawsuits, they managed to enforce their view point and make a shit load of money on the process. "

[johns0]

If I buy an OEM license for a Windows OS, it is tied to the motherboard on the original machine. I can replace everything but the motherboard, and re-install the OS as many times as I need to, but only if it's on a machine with that motherboard.

I have replaced my motherboard about 5 different times now with my vista64 oem and never have a problem getting the new system activated,i just phone and say i''m upgrading.

[Noahtuck]

It's pretty far fetched to reason that because you can resell a piece of software that you buy that you are therefore allowed to buy 1 copy and install it on as many computers as you own. That's not at all what the ruling decided.

Who said that ?

Deadrats the OP said:

"this has huge ramifications, for years people, including myself, felt that once you bought a piece of software, such as a copy of windows, we should be allowed to install the same copy on as many computers as we owned, software companies, such as microsoft, obviously disagreed since clearly their business model is based on them getting a fee for every single install and in the process, through numerous pieces of legislation that they bought and paid for and numerous lawsuits, they managed to enforce their view point and make a shit load of money on the process. "

Well, that not exactly what the OP said, but i do agree to a point as i stated in my post.

If I buy an OEM license for a Windows OS, it is tied to the motherboard on the original machine. I can replace everything but the motherboard, and re-install the OS as many times as I need to, but only if it's on a machine with that motherboard.

I have replaced my motherboard about 5 different times now with my vista64 oem and never have a problem getting the new system activated,i just phone and say i''m upgrading.

Either you replaced the MOBO with the "exact" same mobo or you did not have a OEM version that was locked to a specific machine.

I have had that problem at least twice over the years.
I posted bitching about it not long ago but i'm not going to search for it.

Try to upgrade a HDD or a diff. mobo and BAMM!!!
M$ & E-machines want to screw you for more money even though you have a valid OEM number & already paid for their product.

SCREW THEM!!!!!!

[johns0]

I bought the vista 64 oem separately from my system since i build my own computers,its not locked so i can upgrade motherboards without worry.

[ocgw]

I bought the vista 64 oem separately from my system since i build my own computers,its not locked so i can upgrade motherboards without worry.

Same here

ocgw

peace

[Noahtuck]

I bought the vista 64 oem separately from my system since i build my own computers,its not locked so i can upgrade motherboards without worry.

Yeah i learned about 13+ years ago to never buy a prebuilt but some people don't get it no matter how much you tell them.

I bought my only prebuilt & ended up returning it within 4 days to compusa and never bought a prebuilt again!
I think it was an HP or Compaq but i can't recall for sure ?

When i had the problem it was with other peoples PC's that needed repairing and what a PITA!!

[usually_quiet]

For my old computer, the OEM licensing for Windows XP is tied to the motherboard. I built my new one, so it is nice to know the Vista OEM license will not be voided if I replace the motherboard. It still seems strange that there are different types of OEM licenses.

For most people, prebuilt systems are fine, and the restrictive OEM licensing for the OS have isn't an issue. Most people never upgrade their hardware and they replace their system rather than repair it when something fails out of warranty. At that point, they probably need a new one anyway.

I don't play any demanding video games and do very little that requires video encoding worth mentioning. I do watch video using my computer, and have started using, Hulu. Fancast, and the network websites. I built a computer to have more control over the parts used, and for the experience. For what I do, I most likely could have found a another pre-built system that would be good enough. I don't know yet whether I will want to build another system in the future. Oddly enough, finding a case I liked and could afford was the hardest part.

[jagabo]

It still seems strange that there are different types of OEM licenses.

From what I've read big OEMs like Dell and HP only pay about $35 for a preinstalled OEM Windows Home Premium -- about 1/3 of what you can buy it for. That's why their restrictions are greater.

it is nice to know the Vista OEM license will not be voided if I replace the motherboard.

Microsoft could change that policy at any time. In the mean time tell them your replacing a failed motherboard. Not replacing and old computer. It still pisses me off that you have to call them to activate.

[Noahtuck]

In the mean time tell them your replacing a failed motherboard. Not replacing and old computer. It still pisses me off that you have to call them to activate.

Did that a month or two ago, M$ said yep, your key is valid, but we can't help you, you have to call e-machine, e-machine said oh it's out of warranty so you'll have to pay us

Screw them!!!!!

I did not need a new part, i already replaced the mobo.
Same PC, same HDD, same everything except that one part & windows would not go past the first screen saying it needed the key code.

[usually_quiet]

It still seems strange that there are different types of OEM licenses.

From what I've read big OEMs like Dell and HP only pay about $35 for a preinstalled OEM Windows Home Premium -- about 1/3 of what you can buy it for. That's why their restrictions are greater.

...but what do vendors such as NewEgg pay, since they are buying them for resale in rather large quantities? I suppose MS operating systems could be a loss-leader, but it seems more likely they make a reasonable profit selling them. Like most who buy OEM licenses, I bought through a vendor.

[jagabo]

It still seems strange that there are different types of OEM licenses.

From what I've read big OEMs like Dell and HP only pay about $35 for a preinstalled OEM Windows Home Premium -- about 1/3 of what you can buy it for. That's why their restrictions are greater.

...but what do vendors such as NewEgg pay, since they are buying them for resale in rather large quantities? I suppose MS operating systems could be a loss-leader, but it seems more likely they make a reasonable profit selling them. Like most who buy OEM licenses, I bought through a vendor.

NewEgg sells Window Vista Home Premium OEM for about US$110.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116674
They probably pay somewhere around $85.

Actually, I think the $35 price I quoted was for XP Home OEM for Dell/HP/etc. The equivalent now is Vista Home Basic. Vista Home Premium must cost them a little more.