Canon hf200 best shooting modes

[jim_joh]

[i] am new to hd camcorders so would appreciate any and all help. I have a new Canon hf200 and it has 5 shooting modes, mxp,fxp,xxp+,sp and lp. I have looked every where and cannot find in plain english which & when is the best mode to shoot. I realize I can shoot in all of the modes and determine but my experience is not there so any ideas would be helpful. I have a new quad core 64bit Gateway with 3 hard drives (2,4 ter) so space is not a problem. jim_joh

[minidv2dvd]

since hard drive space isn't an issue why not always record in the highest mode. mxp is 24mbps. as long as you have enough 32GB class 6 memory cards also....

[edDV]

Best for what?

Higher bit rate rates (e.g. MXP 24Mb/s) have higher picture quality but require the expensive Level 6 flash cards and use them up fast.

This all should be in your manual in more detail.

From Spec Sheet (for Level 6 32GB flash card)

Maximum recording time
LP (5 Mbps) 12 hours 15 minutes
SP (7 Mbps) 9 hours 35 minutes
XP+ (12 Mbps) 5 hours 45 minutes
FXP (17 Mbps) 4 hours 10 minutes - Allows 1920 x 1080 Full HD Recording
MXP (24 Mbps) 2 hours 55 minutes - Allows 1920 x 1080 Full HD Recording

[jim_joh]

I appreciate your answers but I guess what I am hoping for is say xp+ a good mode as to quality or in other words is mxp so far ahead of the other modes don't bother with anything less. I sure hope this question makes sense. jim_joh

[lordsmurf]

Shoot some tests, use your eyes.

[jim_joh]

lordsmurf thanks but I explained my reasoning in my first post. I am hoping for experienced users thoughts and ideas. I thought that is one of the main benifits of this forum. jim_joh

[poisondeathray]

I would always use mxp for everything, if you have enough space. The higher bitrate always means less lossy than lower bitrates, and you can never go wrong using the highest quality mode. Just offload more often.

You will notice a huge difference bewteeen mxp and xp+

But the difference between fxp and mxp is tiny, but on some content/scenarios can make a significant difference (lots of motion, complex scenes you can tell the difference in individual frames, but not necessarily in real time playback unless you have a good eye).

[jim_joh]

thank you poisondeathray. your answer is exactly what I was hoping for. jim_joh

[edDV]

lordsmurf thanks but I explained my reasoning in my first post. I am hoping for experienced users thoughts and ideas. I thought that is one of the main benifits of this forum. jim_joh

If you are shooting for the future (important family documentation), use MXP and buy enough level 6 32GB flash cards ($32-49) to keep you going when away from the computer. Even if you don't see much difference today it will make a difference on future HDTV displays.

Also very important is save the camera original files to at least two media (e.g. HDD and DVDR) as the archive. Don't archive conversions.

[SingSing]

Even if you don't see much difference today it will make a difference on future HDTV displays.

Future HDTV display ? Are you drinking Moonshine again ?

[lordsmurf]

lordsmurf thanks but I explained my reasoning in my first post. I am hoping for experienced users thoughts and ideas. I thought that is one of the main benifits of this forum. jim_joh

I know, but I still support the idea of testing for yourself, not just blindly trusting others.
Advice is only half the issue, trying for yourself is the other half.

[edDV]

Even if you don't see much difference today it will make a difference on future HDTV displays.

Future HDTV display ? Are you drinking Moonshine again ?

AVCHD is heavily compressed even at MXP 24Mb/s 1920x1080i mode. FXP mode at 1440x1080i gives about the same compression per pixel. Lower bitrates will take a huge quality hit. As I said above, 24Mb/s AVC is more appropriate for 1280x720p @60 fps. Pro cams would be shooting 35-100Mb/s.

The reason you want to shoot important home videos at the highest quality you can afford is at some point you will want to decompress and process the video (e.g. crop, filter, edit, resize, color correct, format convert). Heavily compressed AVC video does not recompress well. Likewise, straight playback of AVCHD through a current technology Blu-Ray player gets mixed results for picture quality. As HDTV processors improve, extra source bit rate will make a difference.

Think of AVCHD as similar to S-VHS-C ten years ago. Even at the highest quality setting, there is significant artifacting to the recorded picture. Many justified shooting standard VHS or even EP mode because of tape cost. Today even S-VHS SP archive is marginal. The same will be true for AVCHD recordings viewed 10 years from now.

The good news is archive storage costs are way down vs. S-VHS tape. You need to pay up for enough level 6 flash cards to handle a trip, but the cost to archive at high quality is low and getting cheaper by the year. There is no good reason to shoot camcorder AVCHD under 1440x1080i 17 Mb/s unless you are low on flash ram capacity.

If you don't want to spend around $100 for a working supply of flash ram, consider an HDV camcorder instead. Tape costs are around $3 per 13GB (62 minutes), about 20% the cost of Level 6 flash ram.

[jim_joh]

"edtv If you are shooting for the future (important family documentation), use MXP and buy enough level 6 32GB flash cards ($32-49) to keep you going when away from the computer. Even if you don't see much difference today it will make a difference on future HDTV displays. "
I see in your reply you say 32gig class 6 cards are $32-49. The manual says class 4 cards are req. and where do you find class 6 $32-49. Every place I have seen is double that. thanking you jim _joh

[edDV]

"edtv If you are shooting for the future (important family documentation), use MXP and buy enough level 6 32GB flash cards ($32-49) to keep you going when away from the computer. Even if you don't see much difference today it will make a difference on future HDTV displays. "
I see in your reply you say 32gig class 6 cards are $32-49. The manual says class 4 cards are req. and where do you find class 6 $32-49. Every place I have seen is double that. thanking you jim _joh

Canon usually asks for class 6 but class 4 should handle 24 Mb/s. I found those prices in a previous thread but flash ram prices have gone up. Trick is to buy during sales. Black Friday looms over the horizon.

[motoyen]

I have the exact same camera and exact same question. The documentation isn't exactly clear as to how the different bit rates relate to picture quality. I shot some test footage on all 5 modes but couldn't see much of a difference.

From what I'm reading for basic Youtube or Vimeo content FXP should be good enough?

Also what about the setting called Frame Rate which has 3 modes:
60i
PF30
PF24

How does these setting effect the quality of the video?

TIA

[poisondeathray]

I have the exact same camera and exact same question. The documentation isn't exactly clear as to how the different bit rates relate to picture quality. I shot some test footage on all 5 modes but couldn't see much of a difference.

From what I'm reading for basic Youtube or Vimeo content FXP should be good enough?

Also what about the setting called Frame Rate which has 3 modes:
60i
PF30
PF24

How does these setting effect the quality of the video?

TIA

"good enough" is up to you. I assure you there are differences between the modes, but less so between the top 2 bitrate modes. It depends on what you are shooting. The reason there is less difference bewteen the top 2 is that the lens/sensor combo on consumer cams is not as good as "pro" cameras. The image is saturated almost completely at 17Mb/s. You can tell the difference between 24Mb/s and 17Mb/s on some higher complexity content (eg motion scenes). It's always better to shoot at 24Mb/s, unless you don't have space.

60i is interlaced , 30 frames per second or 60 fields per second. This needs to be deinterlaced for the web.

PF30 is progressive 30 frames per second, but it's wrapped in the same 60i container. Some programs handle this correctly, some don't. Editors like Premiere, Vegas can handle this to extract the progressive frames correctly. You have to do this, otherwise you will might get combing when you upload to web

PF24 is progressive 24 fps, but also wrapped in 60i. Premiere and Vegas do not handle this correctly. You have to use other programs like avisynth to recover the frames by IVTC. You have to do this, otherwise you will get combing when you upload to web.

Technically you have more bitrate per frame by shooting lower fps, but 24fps requires very very stable shots (e.g. tripod), or you get jerky motion. The higher the frame rate, the smoother the motion. But for the web, you usually single rate deinterlace (instead of double rate to 60 fps, you convert it to 30 fps), so you lose that smooth motion anyway. For archiving and important stuff, you usually shoot 60i and 24Mb/s. Youtube and the other sites re-encode everyhting. So if you send crap, it will become worse crap. If you send something great, it still becomes crap, but just slightly better than if you sent crap.

Bottom line like lordsmurf said, is do some tests for yourself to see if you *think* it's good enough. Other people can tell the difference but if you can't that's all that matters right? But you will regret not shooting the highest quality on important stuff.

[edDV]

I have the exact same camera and exact same question. The documentation isn't exactly clear as to how the different bit rates relate to picture quality. I shot some test footage on all 5 modes but couldn't see much of a difference.

From what I'm reading for basic Youtube or Vimeo content FXP should be good enough?

Also what about the setting called Frame Rate which has 3 modes:
60i
PF30
PF24

How does these setting effect the quality of the video?

TIA

It comes down to how you want to use the camera and your tolerance for "picture quality".

Most people buy a camcorder to preserve family and activity memories. For these people it doesn't make much sense to shoot at other than maximum quality settings (24 Mb/s for 1920x1080i or 17 Mb/s 1440x1080i). Unlike past analog S-VHS and Hi8 formats, digital archival storage is very cheap.

If you are doing amateur movies that will later be edited, you also want to shoot in high quality modes because editing reduces quality.

If you are "shooting for the web" and just want good enough quality for that and no intention to use the clips in future productions, then it still makes sense to shoot high bit rate because for video compression, higher quality in gets higher quality out. The only reason to shoot at the lower settings would be for low quality documentation of long events (e.g. a long lecture) where picture quality is a low priority.

The only other reason to shoot low quality is if you don't want to invest in adequate flash memory. Cheap flash cards can only handle about 8 Mb/s. It make more sense to but a cheaper camcorder (maybe used) and appropriate flash memory.

Further to poisondeathray's mode descriptions I will add ...

60i (60 interlaced fields per second) is what you want to use for general hand held family or travel videos intended for viewing on a large screen HDTV display. 1920x1080i will match the pixel resolution of the HDTV and 60 fields per second allows easy conversion to 60p, 120p or 240p in the TV processor maximizing smooth fluid motion. 60i can be software deinterlaced to 60p or 30p for web distribution.

PF30 (30 frames per second sequenced as 60i) may be easier to use if you only intend web distribution. You can skip the deinterlace step. 30p will look more jerky on an HDTV and won't work as well for frame interpolation to 120p or 240p. 30p mode will require a tripod or other camera stabilization. Single frame bit rate (or bit rate per pixel) is the same as 60i mode.

PF24 (24 frames per second sequenced as 60i) should be used if you need to match film frame rate or if you want to increase compression in the final product by reduction of frame rate by 20%. To extract 24p from the 60i recorded stream, you must inverse telecine. 24p requires film shooting technique (e.g. tripod mount, low use of pan or zoom, narrow depth of field lenses) to manage the low frame rate. A camcorder frame in PF24 mode will have the same bit rate per frame (or bit rate per pixel) as PF30 or 60i modes. It will just have 20% fewer frames per second after inverse telecine. 24p mode is by far the most difficult to use.


PS: One other advantage to shooting 24p is easier conversion to 25fps "PAL" formats for international distribution. This is why most TV series are shot 24p.

[diwigo]

The answers to the question(s) were also for me very helpful! Thx to poisondeathray and edDV!

[threelittlerugrats]

Hello -

Please help I am new to HD video and purchased this camcorder I want to shoot in the highest quality setting possible. I choose MXP and got the following message "Cannot create AVCHD discs that include scenes recorded in this recording mode High Quality 24 Mbps" - what did I choose wrong. I am planning to video gymnastics. I plan on using my Adobe Premiere Elements 9 software. Can someone tell me what exact setting I should use. I appreciate your help very much.

[edDV]

Hello -

Please help I am new to HD video and purchased this camcorder I want to shoot in the highest quality setting possible. I choose MXP and got the following message "Cannot create AVCHD discs that include scenes recorded in this recording mode High Quality 24 Mbps" - what did I choose wrong. I am planning to video gymnastics. I plan on using my Adobe Premiere Elements 9 software. Can someone tell me what exact setting I should use. I appreciate your help very much.

Is your SD card level 6 ?

Does it let you record despite the warning?

[threelittlerugrats]

My SD card was part of a package deal on amazon...It says Class 4 - so I guess that is a level 4? I am so new to this. It says "full HD video - great speed for Full HD Video" thanks for help

[edDV]

My SD card was part of a package deal on amazon...It says Class 4 - so I guess that is a level 4? I am so new to this. It says "full HD video - great speed for Full HD Video" thanks for help

If the camera won't let you shoot that mode, it may have determined the SD RAM is not fast enough.

Cannot create AVCHD discs that include scenes recorded in this recording mode High Quality 24 Mbps

Another way to read that message is an "AVCHD" DVDR or BD Blu-Ray disc used to be loosely defined as 16 or 17 Mbps. They may be warning you some players may not accept 24 Mbps. Most current players will.

Best to call the manufacturer support line and ask them what it means.

[threelittlerugrats]

Thank you. I was allowed to record in that mode. The highest quality settings are MXP and 24F? What sd card do you recommend? If you were shooting gymnastics would you level the camcorder in sports mode? thanks so much

[edDV]

Thank you. I was allowed to record in that mode. The highest quality settings are MXP and 24F? What sd card do you recommend? If you were shooting gymnastics would you level the camcorder in sports mode? thanks so much

I wouldn't use 24F unless you are going for the NFL Films artzy look.

For motion 60i is your highest setting. Use the 1920x1080 60i mode if sports analysis is the goal.

Player software is important. The ideal sports player would allow field by field stop motion analysis. If I knew what it was I'd tell you. Last time I Googled, there was a cost for a good sports analysis player.

[e2p]

I would assume that MXP is the highest rate that the image processor on HF200 can record. But as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, does HF200 lens produce the quality of imagery input that warrants MXP? Another issue with MXP is that it takes a lot more CPU processing (time) on a computer when doing editing.

Someone did comparison shots of the different modes on a slightly different canon camcorder, but again left the judgment to viewers:

http://www.dvinfo.net/articles/camcorders/canonhf11comparison.php

It is still not clear to me how 24p would create more "arts" or "theater movie-like" look. Anyone sheds more light?

[poisondeathray]

I would assume that MXP is the highest rate that the image processor on HF200 can record. But as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, does HF200 lens produce the quality of imagery input that warrants MXP? Another issue with MXP is that it takes a lot more CPU processing (time) on a computer when doing editing.

It is still not clear to me how 24p would create more "arts" or "theater movie-like" look. Anyone sheds more light?

There is no reason not to use the highest quality mode. Media and storage is cheap these days. You're going to regret for not using a high quality mode.

24p is the traditional film rate, it's what all film producers have been using since Hollywood early years . It takes a lot more skill and equipment to produce usable footage. There are shooting guidelines and general rules filmmakers use for things like panning rates

Just test it out yourself, there is a big difference in the "look" between 60i and 24p - even non "techy" people like grandma can easily see the difference

(There are many more factors that produce a "filmic" look , but frame rate is one of the big consideration)

[edDV]

(There are many more factors that produce a "filmic" look , but frame rate is one of the big consideration)

The other main "filmic" characteristic is a short depth of field lens which the HF200 lacks. Idea is to tight focus on the actors (requires blocking character and camera movements and a focus puller to hold focus). Idea is to use focus to direct viewer attention and blur out the rest.

If you use a wide focus lens at 24p, any camera movement results in stepped backgrounds that pulls the viewer's attention off the actor (sports player in this case) to the jerky background. The only way 24p works with a camera like the HF200 is with fully locked down shots like an interview. Pans and zooms are to be avoided with 24p regardless of lens.

If 24p is a priority, use a DSLR with low f stop lens to shorten depth of field.

[stevesears]

I have been watching the MXP vs FXP debate for a year now. I have a Canon HF S21. Last year went to India and recorded in FXP and was pretty pleased with the results. Now going China and am tempted to shoot in MXP. I have plenty of SD Class 6 cards so that is not an issue. I just want to confirm that it is worth it to record in MXP. I made DVD's and BD's of the India trip and felt that there was not a huge difference in the two but that may have been due to the air pollution that really hurt the picture quality.

So should I live dangerously and just go ahead and record in MXP?

Thanks

[edDV]

I have been watching the MXP vs FXP debate for a year now. I have a Canon HF S21. Last year went to India and recorded in FXP and was pretty pleased with the results. Now going China and am tempted to shoot in MXP. I have plenty of SD Class 6 cards so that is not an issue. I just want to confirm that it is worth it to record in MXP. I made DVD's and BD's of the India trip and felt that there was not a huge difference in the two but that may have been due to the air pollution that really hurt the picture quality.

So should I live dangerously and just go ahead and record in MXP?

Thanks

Yes.

Someday you will get an HDTV and regret FXP and DVD.

[Tim Timkins]

Yes, I have the same camcorder and the 24p is almost useless due to problems with movement. I strictly use that camera in 60i mode and MXP, with much better results. Yes, it does take more time to edit/upload, but the end result is better.