Restoring VHS: VHS to ?

[creamyhorror]

Turn "interlacing on" in x264 and show me a better progressive encode.

What?

[PuzZLeR]

Turn "interlacing on" in x264 and show me a better progressive encode.

What?

I'm talking about enabling "interlaced encoding" in x264.

--interlaced

Using a progressive source will reveal how smeary and horrible it is. Even with an interlaced source it's still not nearly as good as MPEG-2 encoding (at the higher bitrates and with a good encoder).

Why do so? You need to enable "interlaced encoding" in x264 to get SD content, progressive or interlaced, to play on blu-ray, otherwise Scenarist won't accept the streams. And even if they play as is with a more lenient player, or via a hack, you are not guaranteeing compatibility throughout and/or they will not be stable.

It also takes twice as long to encode with it.

This is just one reason why I don't believe x264 is viable for professional or serious projects. Outside of mobiles and "distributed online video" I seriously don't see any use, or advantage, in using it, which all along was my original point to begin with.

[PuzZLeR]

Ok guys look. I was up late frequenting the forum as a light pre-bedtime “nightcap brandy” after packing for a trip, and appeared rushed as a result of it, but honestly I do have enough respect for you folk to post examples of what I’m talking about.

With all sincerity my friends, I can’t do it now. My work calls for travel frequently. (And is there any way we can do this without all this thread hijacking?).

But in a few days when I return I will point out a few sources of exactly what I’m talking about either here, or in a nearby available thread.

Promise.

[jagabo]

Using a progressive source will reveal how smeary and horrible it is.

Then there is something wrong with your processing or the software you're using. I suspect interlaced YV12 isn't being handled correctly.

[creamyhorror]

Why do so? You need to enable "interlaced encoding" in x264 to get SD content, progressive or interlaced, to play on blu-ray, otherwise Scenarist won't accept the streams. And even if they play as is with a more lenient player, or via a hack, you are not guaranteeing compatibility throughout and/or they will not be stable.

Well, given that SD material on Blu-ray must be encoded as interlaced anyway (by Blu-ray specs), I don't see why this is a problem. Don't you do the same with MPEG-2?

If you're saying that x264's output in interlaced mode is terrible compared to MPEG-2's, then we should certainly test that.

This is just one reason why I don't believe x264 is viable for professional or serious projects. Outside of mobiles and "distributed online video" I seriously don't see any use, or advantage, in using it, which all along was my original point to begin with.

Are you saying this about all H.264 encoders, or just x264?

but honestly I do have enough respect for you folk to post examples of what I’m talking about.

Sure, take your time if you're busy.


edit: Just to emphasize the crux of the debate:

x264 only does well with clear, progressive video source and nothing else, which is where praise for it comes from and solves a problem nobody has. It does not even come close to MPEG-2, with a good encoder, at the higher bitrates, with interlaced source, interlacing encoding, noisy or restoration projects, or any "real stuff" like a project like this would entail.

This is your core claim - that x264 encodes interlaced, noisy or restored video much worse than MPEG-2. Let's keep the focus on that.

[PuzZLeR]

Using a progressive source will reveal how smeary and horrible it is.

Then there is something wrong with your processing or the software you're using. I suspect interlaced YV12 isn't being handled correctly.

Using MeGUI and the blu-ray profile for this, enabling interlaced encoding and the source is DV or MPEG-2 (progressive and interlaced). (Mostly TV captures which can be challenging).

I get much better x264 encodes, with interlaced encoding disabled, ceteris paribus.

[PuzZLeR]

Why do so? You need to enable "interlaced encoding" in x264 to get SD content, progressive or interlaced, to play on blu-ray, otherwise Scenarist won't accept the streams. And even if they play as is with a more lenient player, or via a hack, you are not guaranteeing compatibility throughout and/or they will not be stable.

Well, given that SD material on Blu-ray must be encoded as interlaced anyway (by Blu-ray specs), I don't see why this is a problem. Don't you do the same with MPEG-2?

Yes indeed. But enabling interlaced encoding in x264 introduces new artifacts.

If you're saying that x264's output in interlaced mode is terrible compared to MPEG-2's, then we should certainly test that.

Yes I am saying that and it's a well known fact that x264 can't handle interlaced content. We can test it if you want sure.

This is just one reason why I don't believe x264 is viable for professional or serious projects. Outside of mobiles and "distributed online video" I seriously don't see any use, or advantage, in using it, which all along was my original point to begin with.

Are you saying this about all H.264 encoders, or just x264?

Not all H.264 encoders. I do seriously believe in the H.264 advantage over MPEG-2, don't get me wrong. But x264 has remarkably the highest useless factor relative to how good it is.

Sure, take your time if you're busy.

Thanks for understanding. I will rejoin the discussion real soon. I simply don't have time right now to cut, prepare, encode, upload, post, etc samples today.

This is your core claim - that x264 encodes interlaced or noisy video much worse than MPEG-2. Let's keep the focus on that.

My core claim actually is that x264 is not very useful for serious, challenging and compatible and serious projects.

All along I've said that x264 is the best in the world for mobiles, "online distribution", low bitrate video, has an excellent quantizer, great GUIs, solid, reliable and is an excellent encoder with great community support. Did I say otherwise? I never said "it sucks". I still use it myself with HandBrake for years now.

I just find it has too many shortcomings for professional projects. You can't edit it, takes forever to encode and won't play on blu-ray with any confident compatibility. And it's not much better than other lossy codecs, if at all, at the higher bitrates. It isn't especially with some source, filters, etc, more than others. That's my claim.

[creamyhorror]

Yes I am saying that and it's a well known fact that x264 can't handle interlaced content. We can test it if you want sure.

Apparently a French broadcaster has chosen it over other encoders via blind testing, even though it's not as efficient as it could be on interlaced content. So I have some confidence that it's simply not as bad as you say.

I just find it has too many shortcomings for professional projects. You can't edit it, takes forever to encode and won't play on blu-ray with any confident compatibility. And it's not much better than other lossy codecs, if at all, at the higher bitrates. It isn't especially with some source, filters, etc, more than others. That's my claim.

Yes, x264 is not ready for Blu-ray (but nearly there, supposedly). The other things are entirely debatable or apply to H.264 generally (can you edit any H.264 easily? is there any faster consumer H.264 codec?). The part about higher bitrates is a bit strange; isn't the point to preserve an equivalent level of quality at a smaller bitrate? Every codec is going to look around the same, if the bitrate is high enough. Nonetheless, I'd like to find out what those sources and filters are that seemingly give bad results.

Remember that x264 was recommended in this thread for backing up the OP's old home videos for future playback - not a "professional" project by any means.

[Wile_E]

LG Blu-Ray burner $169
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136175

I've seen 25GB discs as low as $3.25 each. Take the MPEG2 files, author to Blu-Ray and be done with it. I converted a lot of my VHS to DVD's for the past year. But now that I have a Blu-Ray burner, I'm using Sony Vegas Pro 8 and DVD Architect 5 to author and burn Blu-Ray. I can fit a lot more on one disc, plus have nicer pop-up menus. Good thing I kept all my DV-AVI original files on hard drives. Instead of having close to 100 DVD's, I think I will be able to fit them all on 35-40 Blu-Ray Discs. That's not much money at $3 each.

[jagabo]

Here's a fun little test for you. I took a 720x480 VOB file, reduced the frame size to 360x240 and stacked it horizontally with a reversed version of itself. I then flipped it horizontally and interlaced the flipped and regular versions.

src=MPEG2Source("VTS_04_1.d2v").Deblock().ConvertToYUY2().BilinearResize(360,240)
v1=StackHorizontal(src,Reverse(src))
v2=FlipHorizontal(v1)
Interleave(v1,v2)
AssumeFieldBased()
AssumeTFF()
Weave()
AssumeFPS(29.97)
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)

This creates an interlaced video that contains one video in one field and another video in the other field (really four versions of the same video but reversed and flipped). The ultimate interlace test as it were. I encoded with both x264 and HC, 2-pass VBR, interlaced, 8000 kbps (min 0, max 15000). Use the provided AVS scripts to view them. Can you see major differences? Unfortunately, it's not the most colorful video to start with

http://www.mediafire.com/?b9ldlyvjmgb

Crap, I just noticed that I forgot to change the filename inside the AVS scripts (I renamed the MP4 and M2V files before zipping them). I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Since the AVS scripts use DirectShowSource() be sure your DirectShow MPEG 2 decoder isn't set to deinterlace. The AVS scripts should give you this (frame 1768):