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  1. Originally Posted by vhelp
    There's a second letdown part. That is, I have the first disc of the show on dvd. Its a fullscreen version only, and per store clerk, no widescreen version is available.
    That's so fans will buy the 4:3 DVD now, then buy the "enhanced for widescreen" DVD again later.
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  2. Member
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    "I dont like small video. "

    Get a bigger TV.

    Do you go to your local theatre manager and complain about the wall at the end of the screen? Not all movies fill a given screen all the time. It is no different than the bars around a widescreen vid.

    I don't watch the bars at the top and bottom. I watch the video. I don't notice the bars.

    My current tv is a 65" HD set. The next one will be bigger. My last (still in use) is a 62 SD set. I usually do not watch regular TV on a regular basis. I use it mainly for movies and videos. I have nothing against regular tv, there just hasn't been anything interesting enough for me to invest the time in viewing it.

    Basically, I don't watch tv unless I am paid to do it (work).
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  3. Originally Posted by jagabo
    Originally Posted by Wile_E
    Netflix has been getting on my nerves lately. I watch it using my XBOX and a lot of content is getting cropped to 16:9.
    Are you talking about streaming video? All the 4:3 video's I've watched on my HTPC are pillarboxed (Netflix is sending a 4:3 DAR image, the HTPC is pillarboxing it for a 16:9 HDTV).
    I meant some of the movies on Netflix. They chop the sides off and resize to fit 16:9 screens instead of showing it in 2.35:1, 1.85:1, etc.
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  4. Originally Posted by Wile_E
    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Originally Posted by Wile_E
    Netflix has been getting on my nerves lately. I watch it using my XBOX and a lot of content is getting cropped to 16:9.
    Are you talking about streaming video? All the 4:3 video's I've watched on my HTPC are pillarboxed (Netflix is sending a 4:3 DAR image, the HTPC is pillarboxing it for a 16:9 HDTV).
    I meant some of the movies on Netflix. They chop the sides off and resize to fit 16:9 screens instead of showing it in 2.35:1, 1.85:1, etc.
    I still don't know if you are talking about streaming movies or DVDs. If DVDs, Netflix has no control over that. Unless they're intentionally buying 16:9 cropped DVDs when the full width DVDs are available. I guess I don't watch the same movies -- I haven't seen the problem.
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  5. Useful Idiot Phlexor's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manono
    Originally Posted by RLT69
    What the hell was that? Are you being sarcastic or serious?
    Dead serious. And he was talking about DVDs, not TV shows, if you had bothered to read his post. Or maybe you know of some 2.35:1 TV shows?
    Star Wars: The Clone Wars
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  6. Originally Posted by Phlexor
    Originally Posted by manono
    you know of some 2.35:1 TV shows?
    Star Wars: The Clone Wars
    According to IMDB it's 16:9. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0361243/
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  7. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Originally Posted by vhelp
    There's a second letdown part. That is, I have the first disc of the show on dvd. Its a fullscreen version only, and per store clerk, no widescreen version is available.
    That's so fans will buy the 4:3 DVD now, then buy the "enhanced for widescreen" DVD again later.
    I should have seen that one, but I was more interested in seeing what the show was about and see if it were interesting enough to look futher into it..however, I only just found out that this disc has 4 episodes and not a one-episode-only I had originally thought.

    . . .

    Oh, and lets now forget that we already knew some broadcasters crop widescreen to fill a 1.78 screen instead of pillaring it or letter boxing it. We know that on some sources that are 2.35, they may not show the borders but instead will crop it to fill a 1.78 widescreen--the replacement to fullscreening. Still, I would rather go with the cropped widescreen then the old way..at least these sources are not totally butchard.

    -vhelp 5202
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  8. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Per the credits and Google, the Disney show "Sonny with a Chance" (first season) was shot (four HD video camera) at Stage 11 NBC Burbank and edited on an Avid Media Composer Nitris DX at "Keep Me Posted" Burbank. The AVID can export in a variety of formats.

    Stage 11 was the old "ER" and then "Ellen" home. Now it is used for the new Leno 10PM show.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_With_a_Chance
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    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1252374/
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    To the original question:

    My main television is a 50" 4:3 3xCRT rear projection Toshiba Cinema Series. Bright, clear and fast. I don't watch much broadcast television, but when I do it is usually sports. I enjoy football, hockey and autoracing. All of those sports have fast moving images and I find that when I watch them at friend's places who have new, expensive, 42"+ widescreen LCD TVs that the image is not clear and fast motion is garbled at best. Each to their own, but more people seem to want to watch sports at my place...but it's probably just my chicken wings.

    I have a media center/HTPC connected to my 50" Toshiba that acts as my DVD player and also has a cable tuner. Using it's software I can adjust ratios to fit the original to the screen or make the screen display as the original. When letter boxed to a 16:9 ratio it is still a very large image. The black bars are not a concern as it is usually a movie and the room is dark and all one concentrates on is the actual image. I have a very large SD DVD collection and have no desire to start converting over to HD at this time. When I see an SD DVD played on one of the new large screen 1080p LCD TVs it is the same as the broadcast sports, acceptable at best.

    So, to answer the question: faced with the daunting task of spending much money on a new, big, wide screen LCD TV to replace an older, but still very nice, 4:3 TV and to have to upgrade all of my media to HD in order to achieve an acceptable picture, if it is even available in HD, it is not worth it for me at this time. I am usually one of the first ones to run out and update to new technology. Not this time. I do not see the benefit to me. I am assuming that other consumers feel the same way and that the broadcasters know that widescreen is not primetime...yet. It will be someday soon.

    BTW - most of my friends who have bought new widescreen LCD TVs still watch only SD DVDs on them. They can't believe the massive amount of quality improvement they see by watching an SD DVD on their HD TV. I guess it boils down to: "if you can make them believe its true, then it is..."
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  10. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Umm, you started out well relating CRT performance to sports. What is the model number of your Toshiba Cinema series CRT projector? Is it SD or HD?

    Are your friends watching only the SD cable broadcast or ATSC HD for sports? LCD sets come in tiers for deinterlace performance. High motion sport is the roughest test. The older or cheaper models will suffer most for sports.

    As for DVD on LCD, you start to lose me. Are the DVD discs sports or movies? Are they using progressive DVD players set up correctly with analog component or HDMI connections? The 1080p LCD screens should look fine for movies and probably better than your CRT (model number?).

    Then,
    Originally Posted by Video Head
    So, to answer the question: faced with the daunting task of spending much money on a new, big, wide screen LCD TV to replace an older, but still very nice, 4:3 TV and to have to upgrade all of my media to HD in order to achieve an acceptable picture, if it is even available in HD, it is not worth it for me at this time. I am usually one of the first ones to run out and update to new technology. Not this time. I do not see the benefit to me. I am assuming that other consumers feel the same way and that the broadcasters know that widescreen is not primetime...yet. It will be someday soon.

    BTW - most of my friends who have bought new widescreen LCD TVs still watch only SD DVDs on them. They can't believe the massive amount of quality improvement they see by watching an SD DVD on their HD TV. I guess it boils down to: "if you can make them believe its true, then it is..."
    You can wait as you please but SD DVD should look fine on new LCD screens. But I must ask if any of your friends are watching HD broadcast source? There should be a large improvement over DVD. Sports should look great on ABC, FOX or ESPN which use 720p HD broadcast even if the deinterlacer sucks.
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  11. Member edDV's Avatar
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    I finally caught this Disney show on Comcast-HD. The show just before "Hanna Montana" was 4:3 pillarbox 720p. "Sonny with a Chance" was 16x9 720p at 10-15Mb/s variable bitrate. I didn't realize DisneyHD was unblocked to IEEE-1394 here

    The SD Disney channel was showing side cropped 4X3 without pan or scan, just a center crop.

    This is a screen cap of a VLC frame cap. Click on the pic for full size.
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  12. Member edDV's Avatar
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    480i SD Disney Channel capture.

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    I have noticed that 16:9 material isn't always treated the same way when it is broacast in SD. For example, PBS tends to letterbox it, while the commercial networks tend to use pan-and-scan. Personally, I have a slight preference toward seeing it shown letterboxed, in most cases.

    One new TV show I watch that is definitely shot in SD is "Legend of the Seeker" a syndicated fantasy series. I enjoy the program, but I don't think they don't have a huge budget to work with. The special effects are not the best I have seen.
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  14. Member netmask56's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Originally Posted by Phlexor
    Originally Posted by manono
    you know of some 2.35:1 TV shows?
    Star Wars: The Clone Wars
    According to IMDB it's 16:9. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0361243/
    In Australia definitely 2.35:1

    Our digital TV philosophy is different to the US inasmuch if it is digital TV SD or HD the transmitted frame is always 16:9 and other aspect ratios are fitted within that canvas size. It's quite funny to watch our SBS TV news service that is international news first followed by national and finally local, the intro from the anchorperson is 16:9 followed by something from PBS (US) and it is 16:9 but clearly from a 4:3 source so it appears postage stamp size followed by something from the UK that was shot 14:9. Analog service generally takes a center cut or letterbox approach and is of course 4:3 . All local production for TV is shot 16:9
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  15. Member lacywest's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JohnnyMalaria
    There are plenty of people who still have 4:3 CRT TVs and no desire to change (such as me) - the typical content isn't worth it. Also, a lot of revenue will come from selling the product to non-domestic markets that may have an even smaller demographic of widescreen viewers.
    All come now ... Dude .... give in .... the picture is great ... I love it.

    I use a Sony 32" LCD HDTV for my PC monitor ... In my bedroom I have a Panasonic 42" Plasma HDTV ... nice ... very nice.

    In my living room ... I've got a Sony projection type ... 51 " HDTV ... but it dont have a digital tuner in it ... but I have it connected to a Directv HR10-250 DVR ... it provides the HD effect. Plus I have a Panasonic DMR-EZ27 DVD Recorder connected to it. I use a Pioneer VSX 1015 Receiver to connect everything. I use component cables for the HD signal.
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Umm, you started out well relating CRT performance to sports. What is the model number of your Toshiba Cinema series CRT projector? Is it SD or HD?

    Are your friends watching only the SD cable broadcast or ATSC HD for sports? LCD sets come in tiers for deinterlace performance. High motion sport is the roughest test. The older or cheaper models will suffer most for sports.

    As for DVD on LCD, you start to lose me. Are the DVD discs sports or movies? Are they using progressive DVD players set up correctly with analog component or HDMI connections? The 1080p LCD screens should look fine for movies and probably better than your CRT (model number?).

    Then,
    Originally Posted by Video Head
    So, to answer the question: faced with the daunting task of spending much money on a new, big, wide screen LCD TV to replace an older, but still very nice, 4:3 TV and to have to upgrade all of my media to HD in order to achieve an acceptable picture, if it is even available in HD, it is not worth it for me at this time. I am usually one of the first ones to run out and update to new technology. Not this time. I do not see the benefit to me. I am assuming that other consumers feel the same way and that the broadcasters know that widescreen is not primetime...yet. It will be someday soon.

    BTW - most of my friends who have bought new widescreen LCD TVs still watch only SD DVDs on them. They can't believe the massive amount of quality improvement they see by watching an SD DVD on their HD TV. I guess it boils down to: "if you can make them believe its true, then it is..."
    You can wait as you please but SD DVD should look fine on new LCD screens. But I must ask if any of your friends are watching HD broadcast source? There should be a large improvement over DVD. Sports should look great on ABC, FOX or ESPN which use 720p HD broadcast even if the deinterlacer sucks.
    My answer to the question has been given. Cross-examination is not required.

    Thank you for allowing me to "wait as I please" and make my own decisions.
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  17. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Then you are watching SD cable broadcasts?
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  18. Originally Posted by usually_quiet
    I have noticed that 16:9 material isn't always treated the same way when it is broacast in SD. For example, PBS tends to letterbox it, while the commercial networks tend to use pan-and-scan.
    It's really annoying when an HD channel upscales and pillarboxes widescreen material that has been letterboxed for 4:3 SD. You end up with a tiny fuzzy widescreen picture letterboxed and pillarboxed.
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  19. Useful Idiot Phlexor's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Originally Posted by Phlexor
    Originally Posted by manono
    you know of some 2.35:1 TV shows?
    Star Wars: The Clone Wars
    According to IMDB it's 16:9. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0361243/
    No, not the old one which is just Clone Wars, but the new one, THE Clone wars.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0458290/technical
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  20. Yeah, but in the US anyway, it's broadcast at 1.78:1.
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  21. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Turns out in the past Disney Channel saved money by shooting 4x3 the first season but this series is based on a "TV show inside a TV show" theme so was shot multi-cam HD at the vacated NBC Stage 11. The stage building seems to be a character in the show.

    Since Leno took over Stage 11 for his new 10PM nightly show, "Sonny with a chance" is moving for season 2 (airs Nov '09).

    BTW, NBC is building a new west coast facility across from Universal City on Lankershim Blvd. The old NBC Burbank will be sold.
    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-128696.html

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  22. Member Verify's Avatar
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    Just for those of you that have multiple big HDTVs and Blue Ray players:

    We do not have a TV (although we do have Time Warner cable connected to):
    1. A 14” diagonal Magnavox CRT monitor/RS170 display with an attached GO Video dual VCR,
    2. A 17” diagonal GEM monitor with an attached PC that contains an ATI 850DV card,
    3. A NEC 20WMGX2 (1680x1050) with analog tuner with attached PC that contains an ATI TV-Wonder card,
    (The NEC is also has an attached Sony DVD player and a Mitsubishi VCR. So I suppose that one could say that this is the equivalent of having 5 TVs - analog only, no set-top box. There are no TV sets anywhere else in the house.)

    We sometimes watch analog TV on the #2 set-up.

    If I watch TV it’s usually on the NEC while running the Guide Plus+ TV guide (using the TV Wonder -the TV signal appears in a 320x240 window at the top left corner of the guide). So I am watching at ¼ full broadcast-resolution. Usually has plenty of detail for me and having the guide continuously available means that I can be discrimination in my channel-surfing (I watch at about a 20” viewing distance).

    If I record a show on the attached VCR I usually play it back in a 640x480 window – wow full resolution.

    If I watch a DVD I usually do so at 720x540 (with black all-round for 4:3) or whatever the Sony decides the format is - since the NEC is set to “use native #pixels.”

    Occasionally I even watch TV ~full screen on the NEC (using its tuner) - wow big picture.

    As an exercise, I have adjusted the size of the TV window on the NEC while trying to judge the size at which I can see the most detail (while watching a black and white movie). It turned out to be close to 640x480 pixels (the NEC pixels just become noticeable at about 18”) so I am probably seeing about as much detail as is available.

    Don’t care if there is black on sides and/or top just want circles to be circles everywhere on the picture!

    We may someday get a 1920x1080display, an ATSC tuner, and a set-top box so we can watch some sports and wildlife in higher resolution, who knows. : )

    Enjoy your set-up (we enjoy ours).
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  23. Useful Idiot Phlexor's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manono
    Yeah, but in the US anyway, it's broadcast at 1.78:1.
    Doesn't matter, the show is shot in 2.35:1
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  24. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Phlexor
    Originally Posted by manono
    Yeah, but in the US anyway, it's broadcast at 1.78:1.
    Doesn't matter, the show is shot in 2.35:1
    Display varies by broadcaster and by program. "The Clone Wars" can be ordered 2.35 to 1 letterbox or 1.78 to 1 panned 16x9. The individual broadcaster makes the decision which to order.

    TNT HD can be letterbox, 16x9 (1.78 to 1 crop) or non-linear stretch. HBO mostly does the 16x9 crop, but I have seen them run the original Star Wars in letterbox on the HD channel. AMC HD, Encore HD can be either.

    There is lots of pillar box 4x3 on the HD channels but some H stretch.

    On the SD channels Discovery, History and NG usually do a full or side cropped letterbox (taller than full letterbox). PBS locals usually letterbox but I'm seeing more side crops from them.

    In other words, it varies by network and local channel policy.
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  25. Originally Posted by Phlexor
    Doesn't matter, the show is shot in 2.35:1
    Of course it matters. That's what we see - no black bars when viewing in Hi-Def. Even the DVD (one, so far), is 1.78:1. My guess is that although it may have been created at 2.35:1, care was taken not to have any important information at the edges so cropping to 1.78:1 wouldn't lose anything.
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  26. Originally Posted by edDV
    480i SD Disney Channel capture.

    Which just goes to show that many 16:9 shows are shot with a 4:3 "safe area" - the actors are nicely framed for 4:3 but look too central with the 16:9. The extra material is just fluff and distracting fluff at that.
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  27. Member zzyzzx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by redwudz
    It may just be economics in relation to the mentioned TV series. Widescreen cameras are more expensive to lease, and the production company may not have suitable equipment for editing it. The way TV series come and go, if it makes it to next season, they may shoot it then as WS digital.
    I was also thinking that they were just using old equipment.
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