359 $ to handle XDCAM with Premiere Pro CS4

[Turmap]

Indeed, Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 does not export XDCAM formats (EX, HD and others). That means you cannot save your XDCAM work in XDCAM with Premiere. To export your XDCAM project with Premiere, you’ll have to buy Mainconcept MPEG PRO HD 4 plug-in, whose price is 359 $ / 279 € (plus appl. Tax).

This situation is unfortunately not properly indicated by Adobe, that’s the least that one can say. It wouldn’t be false to say it is even hidden.

(Just in case anybody would know how to export XDCAM from Premiere Pro CS4 without buying Mainconcept plug-in, let us know, but I am pretty shure it is not possible.)

Unlike Premiere Pro CS4, many others professionnals video editing software, which can be less expensive than Premiere, like Final Cut Studio, Sony Vegas or Canopus Edius, can fully manage XDCAM without compelling customers to buy anything more.

[aedipuss]

well, it is a sony format. but xdcam is the container, the codec inside is mpeg-2. you can set pp cs4 to export mpeg-2 1920x1080 at any frame rate i or p at 25, 40, or 50mbps.

[Turmap]

I'd like it to be possible, but the MPEG2 you're talking about is not the XDCAM MPEG2 made by sony. These are two differents formats.

It is a shame that Adobe Premiere Pro CS4, one of the most important professionnal editing video software, do not handle XDCAM today.

XDCAM is indeed becoming one of the most important professionnal video format.

It is a shame to compel, without telling them, customer to pay for a plug-in licence that, unlike many others professionnals software, Adobe didn't buy itself.

[aedipuss]

you could always switch to using sony's vegas pro.

afaik there is only one mpeg-2, and both vegas and pp the same crippled version of the mainconcept encoder to produce it. i have no first hand experience trying it but others in the pp forums have said the mpeg-2 is the same and pp will use no-recompress rendering if the output is set properly.

i have both vegas and pp, but have mostly used vegas as my editor of choice, so i know little of pp.

[Turmap]

Anyway, like Final Cut Pro and Edius, Sony Vegas fully handle XDCAM formats. Using Sony Vegas, I wouldn't need to use any MPEG-2 formats which wouldn't not suit with XDCAM formats.

I repeat : XDCAM's MPEG-2 is different from MPEG-2 you're talking about. MPEG-2 is a generic video coding system which can have many forms ( http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/standards/mpeg-2/mpeg-2.htm ).

But I won't buy Sony Vegas after buying Premiere Pro CS4 !

One thing is shure : Adobe do not properly inform about the fact Premiere Pro CS4 do not handle XDCAM formats. It is important to tell the truth about it.

[aedipuss]

you're wrong. mpeg-2 is mpeg-2 and pp cs4 can encode to the same levels and bitrates used in xdcam. cs4 will even encode to xdcam HD422 mpeg-2. here's the mediainfo from an encode i just did.

General
Complete name : H:\temp\Sequence 01.mpg
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 31.1 MiB
Duration : 5s 16ms
Overall bit rate : 52.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 4s 904ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 49.7 Mbps
Nominal bit rate : 50.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Colorimetry : 4:2:2
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.800
Stream size : 29.1 MiB (93%)

Audio
ID : 192 (0xC0)
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
Duration : 5s 16ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 224 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Video delay : -67ms
Stream size : 137 KiB (0%)

from adobe press-

Adobe Premiere Pro supports every XDCAM EX format variation except for 1440x1080/23.98p SP mode with 3:2 pulldown. As an alternative, Adobe Premiere Pro offers native support for 1920x1080/23.98 HQ.

posting your illogical whining all over the net is not going to make you any friends.

[Turmap]

I am not wrong at all when I'm writing Adobe do not properly inform about the fact Premiere Pro CS4 do not handle XDCAM formats and that it is important to tell the truth about it.

And sorry to tell you that I'm not wrong either when I'm writing MPEG-2 is a generic video coding system which can have many forms.

If you do go on this link you'll see some of them : http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/standards/mpeg-2/mpeg-2.htm . You'll also discover you have to pay if you want to know more precisely how these coding system are made (in order may be to finance the Moving picture experts group). And let me tell you that for shure, Sony did transform one of these generic MPEG-2 coding system to create its own XDCAM's MPEG-2, in order to sell it (Adobe making the mistake not to buy it till today).

Moreover, the MPEG-2 information you wrote are nothing but superficials. A video format do not mainly consist in bit rate, colorimetry, width an eight, pixel size, frame... It is mathematicals models much more complicated than that.

[aedipuss]

ok..... just a final thought for you. mpeg stands for the motion picture experts group. mpeg-2 is a standard controlled by them. no one changes it but them. the entire tv broadcast system worldwide would come tumbling down if that kind of crap happened.

[poisondeathray]

I believe Turmap is concerned about smart render and export of XDCAM (i.e no generation loss).

While you could export as MPEG2, (PP CS4 supports XDCAM, so there is no red render bar within the sequence), but there is a lossy re-encoding stage upon export

For example, you can do this with DV in PP - just pass through and smart render, but you can't with XDCAM without the 3rd party plugin.

But aedipus is also correct - there is nothing special about the XDCAM MPEG-2, and it adheres to MPEG-2 standards. For example, it's a fixed 12-GOP (for PAL), with 2 consec bframes for XDCAM-EX. If you import a "generic" MPEG-2 footage, PP CS4 will handle it the same way (i.e. no smart render without the plugin) , so it's not a unique scenario to XDCAM

Turmap - before you go off buying that plugin, please note the current version doesn't smart render with PP CS4

* Smart rendering is not available under current Premiere Pro CS4 releases, because of a defect in its plug-in API. Future updates of Premiere Pro CS4 and MPEG Pro HD 4 will solve this.

[Turmap]

Adobe Premiere Pro supports every XDCAM EX format variation except for 1440x1080/23.98p SP mode with 3:2 pulldown. As an alternative, Adobe Premiere Pro offers native support for 1920x1080/23.98 HQ.

Premiere Pro CS4 does not support any XDCAM formats : it imports XDCAM formats, it allows you to work on XDCAM formats and then, it does not let you export any of them. This trap has to be known and must be given an end.

posting your illogical whining all over the net is not going to make you any friends.

Regrettable reality is not whining. My target here is not to get friends but to inform and be informed honestly. Adobe is not my friend but my software.

Appart from that, the joke telling worldwide tv broadcast system would collapse without MPEG-2 controlled by the Motion picture experts group is funny, but far away from the point.

Poisondeathray : I do not say XDCAM MPEG 2 is not MPEG-2 otherwise, I wouldn't call it XDCAM MPEG-2. I say Premiere Pro CS4 does not export it because it doen't have the precise XDCAM MPEG-2 plug-in. I say you have to pay 359 $ / 279 € (plus appl. Tax) in order to have this plug-in. I say this is clearly dishonest because Adobe do not properly inform customers about that.

Let me tell you to finish I have allready tried to export XDCAM (EX) with MPEG-2 from Adobe Media Encoder and that it didn't work properly because it is impossible to get the precise XDCAM MPEG-2, so it has been impossible to get a lossless export. Such situation is of course a pity, because when you do edit a documentary you've worked several months on it, you want to archive it as well as you would archive, for exemple, a number one movie reel.

Dear Adobe Managers, the ball is in your hands.

[Abas-Avara]

360 $ for a software is crazy, just download from torrents or use Vegas Pro

[aedipuss]

turmap - do some reading and educate yourself. all you have to do is set the mpeg-2 encoder to the mpeg-2 level standard listed in the below chart to match the level you recorded the hdcam at.

from fcp - http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/professionalformatsandworkflows/index.ht...8%26section=14

XDCAM HD can record 1080-line HD video using MPEG-2 compression at four quality levels.
Format

MPEG-2 bit rate

Frame dimensions

Color sample ratio

MPEG-2 standard
LP

18 Mbps (VBR)

1440 x 1080

4:2:0

MPEG MP@HL
SP (HDV)

25 Mbps (CBR)

1440 x 1080

4:2:0

MPEG MP@HL-1440
HQ

35 Mbps (VBR)

1440 x 1080

4:2:0

MPEG MP@HL
HD422

50 Mbps (CBR)

1920 x 1080, 1280 x 720

4:2:2

MPEG 422P@HL

The SP format uses a constant bit rate (CBR) and is compatible with 1080i HDV. The LP and HQ formats use variable bit rates (VBR) and provide extended recording time with lower-than-HDV quality (LP) and quality that surpasses that of the HDV recording format (HQ). The HD422 format uses 50 Mbps CBR.

XDCAM EX can record footage at two quality levels.
Format

MPEG-2 bit rate

Frame dimensions

Color sample ratio

MPEG-2 standard
SP (HDV)

25 Mbps (CBR)

1440 x 1080

4:2:0

MPEG MP@HL-1440
HQ

35 Mbps (VBR)

1920 x 1080, 1280 x 720

4:2:0

MPEG MP@HL

[poisondeathray]

Poisondeathray : I do not say XDCAM MPEG 2 is not MPEG-2 otherwise, I wouldn't call it XDCAM MPEG-2. I say Premiere Pro CS4 does not export it because it doen't have the precise XDCAM MPEG-2 plug-in. I say you have to pay 359 $ / 279 € (plus appl. Tax) in order to have this plug-in. I say this is clearly dishonest because Adobe do not properly inform customers about that.

Let me tell you to finish I have allready tried to export XDCAM (EX) with MPEG-2 from Adobe Media Encoder and that it didn't work properly because it is impossible to get the precise XDCAM MPEG-2, so it has been impossible to get a lossless export. Such situation is of course a pity, because when you do edit a documentary you've worked several months on it, you want to archive it as well as you would archive, for exemple, a number one movie reel.

Dear Adobe Managers, the ball is in your hands.

Turmap - PP CS4 "supports" MPEG2 but doesn't export it identically either without 3rd party plugins. Should they remove the terms "MPEG2 support" from their marketing documentation?

The same can be said about AVCHD, or Quicktime, or any of the other video format except DV. e.g. you can import AVCHD and work with it fine, but native pass though or smart rendering isn't supported.

What you are asking for is native pass though or smart editing, and the Premiere documentation makes no claims whatsoever that the software is capable of this for XDCAM

If you want a truly lossless export, use a lossless format like lagarith or huffyuv.

Keep in mind even if you bought that plugin, the smart render doesn't function currently, so in effect, exporting generic MPEG2 would give you identical results

PS. I'm not defending Adobe, it's just you are making assumptions that the literature clearly doesn't state. Perhaps this is a language translation issue?

[Turmap]

Aedipuss, are you paid by Adobe to be so agressive ? It is so bad ! Thanks for the link below, but as I allready wrote, Final Cut Pro do indeed export XDCAM. Unfortunately, the MPEG-2 standart used by Final Cut Pro to export XDCAM EX (called here MPEG MP@HL) doesn't exist on CS4. (I remind you Premiere does not export XDCAM formats.)

Poisondeathray (sorry about my poor english), if Premiere Pro CS4 does import and export MPEG-2 generic codec, Adobe doesn't have to remove the term "MPEG2 (generic) support" from its marketing documentation.

What you are asking for is native pass though or smart editing, and the Premiere documentation makes no claims whatsoever that the software is capable of this for XDCAM

Thanks for recognizing that Premiere does not export XDCAM formats. Vegas, Final Cut Studio either Edius, which do export XDCAM formats, make no claims either. To import any format without exporting is a trap. It is dishonest, especially when it is not clearly indicated. Anyway, after I've informed people, Adobe will be able to know wether such a behaviour is a problem or not. Customers will have the last word.

Thanks about lagarith and huffyuv codecs, but from what I understand, my XDCAM camcorder do not use them.

Keep in mind even if you bought that plugin, the smart render doesn't function currently...

Do you mean the 359 dollars Mainconcept MPEG PRO HD 4 plug-in which is said to be necessary to export XDCAM from Premiere Pro CS4 is useless ?

[poisondeathray]

I think you've missed the important parts about everything I said...

When you re-encode with a lossy format (including XDCAM), you lose quality

Smart rendering is the key here. Smart rendering means no quality loss on unrendered sections. E.g. only sections with effects like fades, overlays etc. get rendered, all the segments without those effects pass through with 100% quality and speed (i.e. no time spend rendering). So only sections with red render bar need to be rendered and re-encoded

So if you bought that plugin, you can export XDCAM, but it's a lossy 2nd generation version. If smart rendering functioned properly (which they claim will be "fixed" eventually), it would allow pass though or 100% quality on those sections that didn't have effects. Even simple cut editing would be passed though 100% quality. Right now, because smart rendering doesn't function, everything is re-encoded - so everything has quality loss.

Most people don't use XDCAM as a final format, it's an acquisition format. It's not suitable for delivery e.g. blu-ray, web etc...
If you wanted to archive a master, you should archive the original. Re-encoding with a lossy format means quality (generation) loss. This is why smart rendering is important.

In contrast, Vegas claims not only support for XDCAM, but also smart rendering for it as well. None of the Adobe literature claims this. The term "support" can have different interpretations here - and maybe it is purposely vague on Adobe's end - but a claim against them would never hold up, for example in a legal context.

I hope that is more clear...

[Turmap]

So Premiere Pro CS4 does not really support native XDCAM like it is written on Adobe documentation ?

[poisondeathray]

It does support it natively (i.e. you can import and edit without red render bar or proxies) , but there are no claims for smart rendering or export in the documentation.

It's the exactly same scenario for other file types e.g AVCHD, Quicktime, etc....native support, but no smart render. You can make the same argument for those types. They don't claim smart render for those either....(ie. they are re-encoded), and I don't see Adobe getting in trouble for misrepresentation or false marketing claims... I guess it comes down to what "support" is interpreted as, but they never claimed smart render export.

[Turmap]

So I repeat :

"Thanks for recognizing that Premiere does not export XDCAM formats. Vegas, Final Cut Studio either Edius, which do export XDCAM formats, make no claims either. To import any format without exporting is a trap. It is dishonest, especially when it is not clearly indicated. Anyway, after I've informed people, Adobe will be able to know wether such a behaviour is a problem or not. Customers will have the last word."

[poisondeathray]

So I repeat :

"Thanks for recognizing that Premiere does not export XDCAM formats. Vegas, Final Cut Studio either Edius, which do export XDCAM formats, makes no claims either. To import any format without exporting is a trap. It is dishonest, especially when it is not clearly indicated. Anyway, after I've informed people, Adobe will be able to know wether such a behaviour is a problem or not. Customers will have the last word."

Unfortunately, you're wrong. They do make those claims

ttp://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro/videoediting
Vegas Pro 9 software allows you to capture, edit, and render 24p for DV, XDCAM MXF render , HD-SDI and more


http://desktop.grassvalley.com/support/supportdocs/docs/edius_v46/How_to_Use_XDCAM_wit..._KH021108C.pdf
page 14: Exporting XDCAM...


The difference is they claim to export...Adobe does not.


It's the same thing with AVCHD camcorders. All the NLE's claim "support" for AVCHD in that they can edit it natively (and they do), but they cannot export in the exact AVCHD specification. But you can export in a re-encoded h.264 format. What's the difference here between the XDCAM scenario? (well Vegas can smart render for some AVCHD streams, but that's besides the point).

It's an unfortunate situation, but everything is in the documentation

[aedipuss]

sony vegas pro 9 does not have any rendering templates labeled xdcam, so do they not support or export xdcam also?

[poisondeathray]

sony vegas pro 9 does not have any rendering templates labeled xdcam, so do they not support or export xdcam also?

Vegas Pro 9 does. There is no labelled template for project settings (just like there isn't for AVCHD either), but when exporting look under sony mxf, there are presets there

[aedipuss]

Vegas Pro 9 does. There is no labelled template for project settings (just like there isn't for AVCHD either), but when exporting look under sony mxf, there are presets there

there are presets but, they aren't labeled -"xdcam"- which was my point, just like the mpeg-2 in pp.

[poisondeathray]

there are presets but, they aren't labeled -"xdcam"- which was my point, just like the mpeg-2 in pp.

But the "EX" moniker denotes XDCAM-EX . When correctly setup with matching project properties and export settings, Vegas 9 Pro does smart render, whereas PP CS4 does not.

[Turmap]

No, Poisondeathray, I am right : Edius, Final Cut and Vegas do not make particular claims explaining they do export XDCAM formats. Indeed, within one or two mouse clicks, their documentations do not precise they do export XDCAM formats but :

- Vegas Pro 9 software natively supports the newest professional camcorder formats including XDCAM EX and RED ( http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro ).

- Supports newer file-based formats, including Infinity JPEG 2000, XDCAM and XDCAM EX, P2 (DVCPRO and AVC-Intra), and GFCAM ( http://desktop.grassvalley.com/products/EDIUS/index.php ).

- Use the Log and Transfer function in Final Cut Pro to ingest Panasonic AVC-Intra and DVCPRO HD from P2 cards, Sony XDCAM EX, and AVCHD ( http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/finalcutpro/broad-format-support.html ).

Premiere Pro CS4, which as we clearly know now, does not export XDCAM formats, do exactly the same as these :

Tapeless camera support new : Edit video natively in the latest tapeless formats, including RED, AVCHD, P2, XDCAM EX, and XDCAM HD, without transcoding or rewrapping ( http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/features/?view=topnew ).

Then eventually, with a few clicks more, you can find more precise informations telling it exports XDCAM formats, and with a lot of clicks more, after getting lost, it doesn't concerning Premiere Pro CS4.

Customers will judge.

[poisondeathray]

Sony and Canopus both claim export or end-to-end support. Adobe does not.

Did you not see the links I posted? You can't selectively read if you are trying to make a point. People will laugh at you.

If you can find where Adobe clearly states it can export XDCAM, I will sign the petition with you. I too am an Adobe customer, but I am just pointing out the facts.


page 664
This is from the same page you linked
http://cdn1.grassvalley.com/unsecure/DL/EDIUS_5.x/documentation/ENG/EDIUS51_User_Refer..._Guide_ENG.pdf

Using Exporter
The Exporter Plug-In is used to export projects in various media formats.
The Exporter supports the following file formats (other formats are sup-
ported with third-party plug-ins):
.
.
•XDCAM HD
•XDCAM EX



http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro/videoediting

[Turmap]

Your "Page 664" documentation demonstrates what I am saying : within one or two mouse clicks, no documentation states it does export XDCAM formats but it does support them.

Concerning People, they will laugth about what they want, that's not the point.

I have informed them that Premiere Pro CS4 do not handle XDCAM formats because, unlike many others professionnals video editing sofware, it doesn't export any of them.

I have informed them that to export XDCAM formats with Premiere Pro CS4, they'll have to buy a Mainconcept Plug-in which price is 359 $ / 279 € plus appl. Tax (Mainconcept plug-in about which one you wrote it would be useless to get it because Premiere is not fixed yet to make smart rendering with it).

I have informed them that Adobe documentation telling Premiere Pro CS4 supports XDCAM formats is false.

I have informed them that others professionnals video editing sofware documentations telling they do support XDCAM formats are true.

I have informed them to be very suspicious with Adobe documentation which is eventually correct to win in court, but for shure not correct at all regarding a respectful information.

I repeat : customers will judge.

[fitch.j]

Wow Turmap...Talk about ignorance!

Firstly, Sony and Canopus DO Both claim to export, which Adobe does not. There is the huge difference that you are refusing to see, that is the big difference. You simply don't understand.

However, Your on a rant about how PP doesnt support XDCam, well i can tell you right now after using PP for years, Yes....Yes it does!... You can import it into your project, and it is supported there natively. That is what is meant by it. They make no claims to export it anywhere, so they are not misleading anyone.

Why you'd want to export XDCAM i dont know anyway as at present you can't smart render it, so you adding another generation of loss. Your original point about always archiving in the source format is void here as that derives from always using the least amount of lossy encodes, that can be avoided here by not re-encoding to XDCAM.

Finally....should you REALLY want to...learn what XDCAM is first before you start ranting. It's MPEG2 with a certain set of parameters (as you have been shown above) and guess what, Media Encoder exports MPEG2!



Basically I think your annoyed with yourself as you didn't bother to read the documentation properly first, and are now trying to blame Adobe.

[Turmap]

Lately, my girl friend heard a radio program about people whose duty is to defend enterprises on forums. I wouldn't say this is the case here with my interlocutors, but i wouldn't say this is not.

These interlocutors use mainly five arguments to convince people i am wrong :

- I am ignorant, not well educated, i am posting illogical whining, people will laught at me, etc.
Even if i am far from knowing everything (i am also here to learn), I think such a poor behaviour can be interpreted as weakness. Calomny is dictator's arm.

- Adobe documentation does not say Premiere Pro CS4 exports XDCAM formats.
I think that because Adobe documentation says XDCAM formats are supported by Premiere Pro CS4, Premiere should import and export them. To support is not only being able to receive the ball, but to throw it also. Acting such a way, Adobe soccer team would never win anything.

- Others professionnals video editing software documentations do the same.
I think that Adobe documentation is the most "purposely vague" on these questions (that the least one can say), and that philosophy telling one can be bad because others are is not relevant.

- To export XDCAM is useless.
I think that any format change implicates a bigger loss, so the best way to archive properly XDCAM videos (in order to preserve family or professional movies, documentaries, etc.) is to use XDCAM formats. Then, depending on demand and need, you can of course export a copy from these archives in any video format.

- To export XDCAM, using Mpeg-2 from Adobe media encoder is the best.
I think that, for example, you should explain why XDCAM builder Sony itself says you must use Mainconcept plug-in to export XDCAM from Premiere Pro CS4 (as you can see in the video tutorial downloadable here : http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-xdcam/resource.demos.bbsccms-assets-micro-hdtapeles...owAssets.shtml ). Is Sony wrong ?

[filmboss80]

The error you are making is in assuming that you should save back to XDCAM format simply because the source is XDCAM. Ordinarily it would be best to maintain the source format (as in DV), but only when very little additional re-encoding and re-compression is done.

Think of it like a .jpg still image. If you keep saving back to .jpg, you will recompress and recompress the image until it is vastly degraded. That is why many people who crop or alter .jpg images will save to uncompressed image formats like .tif, .bmp, etc.

It seems you think you are preserving the quality of the original by exporting your edited project back to XDCAM, while in reality, the quality will be degraded because it requires another round of encoding and compression.

It may not be such a bad thing that Premiere tends to steer you away from exporting back to that format.

[Turmap]

The error you are making is in assuming that you should save back to XDCAM format simply because the source is XDCAM. Ordinarily it would be best to maintain the source format (as in DV), but only when very little additional re-encoding and re-compression is done.
What do you know about my editing video work ? Like a documentary-maker, i mainly cut, copy and paste, add a few titles... What would be the point to compress in another format ? To damage my source format ? I am not an After Effect user.
You'd better change Ordinarily it would be the best by "it is much better indeed".

It may not be such a bad thing that Premiere tends to steer you away from exporting back to that format.
Asserting that it is good that we do bad because we cannot do good so it will allow you to discover others things is the height of argumentation.

...many people who crop or alter .jpg images will save to uncompressed image formats like .tif, .bmp, etc.
My "uncompressed" format is my source format.

Let me repeat my question to finish : why XDCAM builder Sony itself says you must use Mainconcept plug-in (359 $ / 279 € - plus appl. Tax) to export XDCAM from Premiere Pro CS4 (as you can see in the video tutorial downloadable here : http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-xdcam/resource.demos.bbsccms-assets-micro-hdtapeles...owAssets.shtml ) ? Is Sony wrong ?