359 $ to handle XDCAM with Premiere Pro CS4

[poisondeathray]

As already discussed about 20 times in this thread and the other one you hijacked, https://forum.videohelp.com/topic372791.html

Re-encoding back to XDCAM is lossy.

Even if you could export XDCAM, you would be better off using a lossless format, or even a less lossy format such as h.264 at the same bitrate. The quality will be better

It's only the case when smart rendering works, that exporting to XDCAM might make sense. Do you not comprehend this? It's a very simple concept...

Premiere doesn't smart render AVCHD, or HDV , or h.264 quicktime, or MPEG2...etc, etc... either. They are re-encoded. How is that any different than the treatment of XDCAM ?

[aedipuss]

pdr - give up. it's not asking for any help, nor has it at any point. it's just whining, here and at many other forums.

[filmboss80]

Let's just give up on this one, guys. It's like talking to a brick wall. No matter what you say, he still thinks that his footage won't be degraded when he exports his native XDCAM footage back out to XDCAM. I thought I could help him understand with the .jpg analogy, but it was just a waste of time.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Wow! What an interestingly emotional thread - an entertaining read while I wait for Windows Update to finish dowloading stuff. Anyway...

I am not wrong at all when I'm writing Adobe do not properly inform about the fact Premiere Pro CS4 do not handle XDCAM formats and that it is important to tell the truth about it.

I googled "premiere pro 4 xdcam" and the #1 hit was "Supported video formats" on the Adobe website where it clearly states:

Sony XDCAM, XDCAM EX, and XDCAM HD import with browsing and metadata support - Import and edit content from Sony XDCAM cameras directly, without rewrapping or transcoding.

Also, in this 7-page document http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/pdfs/prempro_cs4_xdcam_wfg.pdf concerned purely with XDCAM support, there is absolutely no claim that you can export XDCAM out-of-the-box.

Clear as day. No trap or anything else deceitful.

So - caveat emptor. You should have done your research before buying their product.

[aedipuss]

i posted this chart from adobe before but it was selectively overlooked - http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/405/kb405978.html

Supported file formats in Premiere Pro CS4

*
Ratings:5 of 7 people found this helpful

This table lists the file formats that Adobe Premiere Pro can import and export. For more information about importing and exporting files, see Adobe Premiere Pro Help.
Video file formats
Format Import/Export support Format Details
3GPP Movie (.3gp) Import and Export QuickTime player required on Windows
Advanced Video Codec (.mts) Import only
AVCHD (.m2ts, .mts) Import only
DV stream (.dv) Import and Export
Flash Video (.flv, .f4v) Import and Export
Microsoft AVI (.avi) Import and Export Export Windows only
Microsoft NetShow (.asf) Import only Windows only
MPEG-1 (.mpg) Import and Export Export Windows only
MPEG-2 (.m2v, .mpg) Import and Export
MPEG-4 (.m4v) Import and Export
Panasonic P2 (.mxf) Import and Export
QuickTime Movie (.mov) Import and Export QuickTime player required on Windows
Shockwave Flash object (.swf) Import only
Sony VDU File Format Importer (.dlx) Import only Windows only
Windows Media (.wma, .wmv) Import and Export Export Windows only
XDCam-EX movie (.mp4) Import only
XDCam-HD movie (.mxf) Import only

[Turmap]

Third time : is Sony wrong ?

( http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-xdcam/resource.demos.bbsccms-assets-micro-hdtapeles...owAssets.shtml )

Good night Goliath Adobe !

David Turmap.

[fitch.j]

Third time : is Sony wrong ?

( http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-xdcam/resource.demos.bbsccms-assets-micro-hdtapeles...owAssets.shtml )

Good night Goliath Adobe !

David Turmap.

To answer the only point you seem to have left now, the answer is not straightforward it's kind of a yes and no....In order to get the MXF extension directly from Encoder i would presume you are right (i cant say that i have ever done it, but it would seem the case), however that extension is not needed in order for it to be XDCAM (Sony themselves on some models wrap the video in an MP4 container). What determines it is the specifics of the filetypes, and the MPEG2 settings, these CAN be set in Encoder.

Simple Enough for you to understand?

[creamyhorror]

What would be the point to compress in another format ? To damage my source format ?

Hey Turmap, where did you get the idea that staying in the same format keeps the quality high, while converting it to another format damages it?

[Turmap]

Premiere doesn't smart render AVCHD, or HDV , or h.264 quicktime, or MPEG2...etc, etc... either. They are re-encoded. How is that any different than the treatment of XDCAM ?

Isn't it quite a problem Premiere Pro CS4 doesn't smart render nothing except DV ? I think so.

As you wrote it on this thread on Sep 07, 2009 22:49, Poisondeathray, When correctly setup with matching project properties and export settings, Vegas 9 Pro does smart render, whereas PP CS4 does not.

As you wrote it on this thread on Sep 07, 2009 21:19, The term "support" can have different interpretations here - and maybe it is purposely vague on Adobe's end...

I do really think i didn't buy the proper professional video editing software because of bad documentation.

[Turmap]

To answer the only point you seem to have left now

...

I had to go to bed, but here are a few others points :

Within one or two mouse clicks maximum,


Vegas Pro documentation says :

Capture, Import, and Export
Vegas Pro 9 software has extensive capture, import, and export support for video and audio. With the Vegas Pro 9 collection you can efficiently edit and process DV, AVCHD, HDV, SD/HD-SDI, and all XDCAM™ formats in real time, fine-tune audio with precision, and author surround sound, dual-layer DVDs.

( http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro/io )


Edius documentation says :

Supported Video Formats

* Canopus DV
* Canopus HQ
* Canopus Lossless
* Infinity JPEG 2000
* 3GPP
* AVCHD
* AVC-Intra
* DirectShow video*
* DV25
* DVCPRO 50 (including P2)
* DVCPRO HD (including VariCam, P2)
* GFCAM
* H.246 TS*
* MPEG-1 (system or elementary** stream)
* MPEG-2 (program or elementary** stream)
* MPEG-2 (HDV)
* MXF*
* QuickTime*
* Uncompressed (AVI)
* XDCAM (SD and HD)
* XDCAM EX
* Windows Media Video

* Not all streams are supported. May require additional third-party decoders, not supplied with the software.

** Import only.

( http://desktop.grassvalley.com/products/EDIUS/index.php )


Final Cut Studio documentation says (in a chapter named Supported Formats and I/O*) :

# Native editing for HDV including 1080i 50/60, 1080p 24/25/30, 720p 24/25/30/50/60
# Sony XDCAM HD at 25-Mbps CBR, 18- and 35-Mbps VBR at 1080i 50/60 and 1080p 24/25/30/VFR with free Sony software
# Sony XDCAM HD422 1080i 50/60, 1080p 24/25/30, 720p 50/60 with free Sony software
# Sony XDCAM EX 1080p 24/25/30, 1080i 50/60, 720p 24/25/30/50/60 with free Sony plug-in
# AVCHD editing support using Apple ProRes

( http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/specs/ )


So within one or two mouse clicks maximum, we do know precisely which video formats these professionals video editing software import, edit and export. Within two clicks, we do know for example that Edius and Vegas do export XDCAM, AVCHD and HDV formats (mpeg-2 HDV says Edius documentation), while Final Cut does export XDCAM formats but only edits AVCHD and HDV.

Nothing similar regarding Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 documentation ( http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/features/?view=topnew ), Premiere Pro CS4 which appears to be the poorest professionnal software concerning the exportation of all these differents video formats (but to know it, you have to look for these informations like if it was an hidden treasury).

[Turmap]

the answer is not straightforward it's kind of a yes and no....In order to get the MXF extension directly from Encoder i would presume you are right (i cant say that i have ever done it, but it would seem the case), however that extension is not needed in order for it to be XDCAM (Sony themselves on some models wrap the video in an MP4 container). What determines it is the specifics of the filetypes, and the MPEG2 settings, these CAN be set in Encoder.

Simple Enough for you to understand?

You may think I am stupid, but i am not only right about MXF extension : you forgot to precise Adobe Media Encoder MPEG2 settings do not allow to export XDCAM PCM audio codec.

Would you be like me victim of bad Adobe documentation ?

[Turmap]

Hey Turmap, where did you get the idea that staying in the same format keeps the quality high, while converting it to another format damages it?

From life : for example, i need to preserve my original argentic films to be abble to make good digital copies of them.

And from dictionnary : To convert : to change (something) into another form, substance, state, or product; transform: convert water into ice.

(You can of course convert back ice into water, but video formats are not H2O molecules.)

[poisondeathray]

Again, there is nothing special about XDCAM audio, it's just twos (signed PCM big endian). You can just use PCM audio for export. Maybe you should do some more basic reading...I think you might have a misunderstanding of some very basic concepts here.

If you've ever used professional software, you would know smart rendering isn't very common. Certainly it is not an expected feature. Vegas 9 only recently offered it for XDCAM in April 2009. It's not surprising since XDCAM is a Sony proprietary format

The Adobe documentation clearly states XDCAM is import only. Can you not see this? Is there a language translation issue?

I've given you the benefit of the doubt, and I've been far too patient - but now it seems like you are whining.

Good luck

[creamyhorror]

From life : for example, i need to preserve my original argentic films to be abble to make good digital copies of them.

And from dictionnary : To convert : to change (something) into another form, substance, state, or product; transform: convert water into ice.

(You can of course convert back ice into water, but video formats are not H2O molecules.)

What makes you think that is applicable to video encoding? Did you read a guide or paper somewhere that told you so?

[JohnnyMalaria]

Nothing similar regarding Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 documentation ( http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/features/?view=topnew ), Premiere Pro CS4 which appears to be the poorest professionnal software concerning the exportation of all these differents video formats, but to kwow it, you have to look for these informations like if it was an hidden treasury.

Are you being serious or just trying to create trouble in this (and other) forums?

One - just one - click from the link you provide opens the 7-page document I mentioned which you clearly haven't read. You obviously have very strong English skills and anyone with such could not infer that the software supports XDCAM exporting out-of-the-box.

You have been slamming Adobe (almost slandering them) yet have not produced anything to support your claims that they have deliberately misled people. Personally, I dislike Adobe's products. I was an ardent Premiere user until a few years ago when I had finally had enough with the bugs etc. But I could never fault Adobe on their lack of ambiguity as far as literature and documentation are concerned.

[Turmap]

You can just use PCM audio for export.

No you can't : Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 does not export PCM in MPEG-2. I suppose your ignorance is due to the "purposely vague" supported formats documentation you talked about...

If you've ever used professional software, you would know smart rendering isn't very common. Certainly it is not an expected feature. Vegas 9 only recently offered it for XDCAM in April 2009. It's not surprising since XDCAM is a Sony proprietary format

So it's time to do it or to clearly precise it is not done.

The Adobe documentation clearly states XDCAM is import only.

How many mouse clicks to know it is ONLY imported, how long ?

I've been far too patient - but now it seems like you are whining.

Should I say the same ? I'd rather repeat what I wrote : calomny is dictator's arm.

[poisondeathray]

You can just use PCM audio for export.

No you can't : Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 does not export PCM in MPEG-2. I suppose your ignorance is due to the "purposely vague" supported formats documentation you talked about...

"Ignorance" is when you don't read the documentation, my friend. I suggest you read it and learn how to use these tools properly. You obviously haven't read the user guide, just like you haven't read the documentation on supported formats, nor did you read the Mainconcept plugin documentation.

If you require any more assistance with "real" problems, we are here to help, after all it's called "videohelp". But a little bit of friendly advice: whining isn't going to get you any farther or help you to make any friends. I can tell you've already pissed of some members who are video professionals already (that are very knowledgable and great resource people) in your short stay here, They might be unwilling to help you in your future endeavours




Good luck

[Turmap]

Johnny Malaria, from the first Premiere Pro CS4 documentation page ( http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/ ), you have to make 5 clicks to reach this page which clearly says XDCAM is not exported from Premiere :

http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/405/kb405978.html

5 clicks for such an important information is too much, especially if you do not know the way. (I remind you that others professionals video editing softwares I've mentionned allow you to get these informations in two mouse clicks maximum from their first documentation page.)

No doubt Adobe must urgently ameliorate its documentation here.

[filmboss80]

Five mouse clicks--how exhausting! My poor index finger will never be the same. Oh, woe is me!

[Turmap]

Poisondeathray, read this : http://forums.adobe.com/message/2181987 .

I found it after discovering it was not possible to export MPEG-2 with audio PCM from Premiere. It is written indeed, but once you try to do it, Media Encoder says it is not possible with such audio codec. (You have to buy 359 $ / 279 € - plus appl. Tax Mainconcept plug-in to be abble to do it.)

And please, do not threaten me anymore, wether I am wrong or not.

Thanks for proposing your help anyway.

[Turmap]

filmboss80 : Five mouse clicks are not exhausting indeed, but on such a documentation and regarding such important points, it is all but practical, especially compared with others video professionals softwares documentation I've talked about. I repeat : no doubt Adobe must urgently ameliorate its documentation here, that's the last that one can say.

[poisondeathray]

Poisondeathray, read this : http://forums.adobe.com/message/2181987 .

I found it after discovering it was not possible to export MPEG-2 with audio PCM from Premiere. It is written indeed, but once you try to do it, Media Encoder says it is not possible with such audio codec.

And please, do not threaten me anymore, wether I am wrong or not.

Thanks for proposing your help anyway.

I apologize if I sounded threatening.

You are correct, I tested it and the multiplexer appears not to function with PCM audio

You can still export elementary video & audio, and use a free multiplexer eg. tsmuxer to put into a transport stream. Tested and working

Cheers

EDIT: Tested and works fine

[Turmap]

What makes you think that is applicable to video encoding? Did you read a guide or paper somewhere that told you so?

It is not complicated to understand that digital videos formats are not molecules but complex mathematical algorithms. If you do transform them, you won't be abble to transform them back identically.

[fitch.j]

excuse my language but counting mouse clicks is the most retarded way i have ever heard of in order to judge how good documentation is.

And yet....

So within one or two mouse clicks maximum, we do know precisely which video formats these professionals video editing software import, edit and export. Within two clicks, we do know for example that Edius and Vegas do export XDCAM, AVCHD and HDV formats (mpeg-2 HDV says Edius documentation), while Final Cut does export XDCAM formats but only edits AVCHD and HDV.

Nothing similar regarding Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 documentation ( http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/features/?view=topnew ), Premiere Pro CS4 which appears to be the poorest professionnal software concerning the exportation of all these differents video formats (but to know it, you have to look for these informations like if it was an hidden treasury).

This is what you said first!

and then not long later you link this.....

http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/405/kb405978.html

So you say it doesnt exist, and then YOU find it....yet your entire point is that you CAN'T find this information!....confused?

If only you spent as much time looking at the documentation before you started this rant as you have done since to try and make points. You would have known all of this in the first place, and wouldn't be giving us all a headache with your whining!

[Turmap]

excuse my language but counting mouse clicks is the most retarded way i have ever heard of in order to judge how good documentation is.

Don't agree : it is very important regarding documentation. Many people are working on this. It is definitly important, even strategic. Any storekeeper knows that.

So you say it doesnt exist, and then YOU find it...

I've never said it doesn't exist, otherwise i wouldn't be here explaining you need five mouse clicks to reach it. I've said it is hidden on purpose. Poisondeathray wrote himself : "purposely vague".


Goog night Goliath Adobe !

David Turmap

[JohnnyMalaria]

Let's start a pissing contest about mouse click count.

I can get to Adobe's explicit statement that Premiere 4 supports XDCAM *import* in three clicks from their home page. That is very reasonable. If it is so important to have export capability, any sensible soul would further investigate to be certain.

[creamyhorror]

It is not complicated to understand that digital videos formats are not molecules but complex mathematical algorithms. If you do transform them, you won't be abble to transform them back identically.

What you don't understand is that when you edit a video without smart render, you have to re-encode the whole thing from start to end again regardless of whether the output format is the same or not. You simply can't avoid losing quality.

Your understanding is flawed.

[fitch.j]

So you say it doesnt exist, and then YOU find it...

I've never said it doesn't exist, otherwise i wouldn't be here explaining you need five mouse clicks to reach it. I've said it is hidden on purpose. Poisondeathray wrote himself : "purposely vague".


Goog night Goliath Adobe !

David Turmap

You never said it? You wrote it in BOLD remember?

So within one or two clicks maximum, we do know precisely which video formats these professionals video editing software import, edit and export. Within two clicks, we do know for example that Edius and Vegas do export XDCAM, AVCHD and HDV formats (mpeg-2 HDV says Edius documentation), while Final Cut does export XDCAM formats but only edits AVCHD and HDV.

Nothing similar regarding Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 documentation ( http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/features/?view=topnew ), Premiere Pro CS4 which appears to be the poorest professionnal software concerning the exportation of all these differents video formats.

and then again you said it....this time i've highlighted the part so you can't miss it:

By now anyway, we all begin to understand that, unlike many others professionals video editing software which, like they say, do support XDCAM formats (Final Cut, Edius, Vegas... do indeed import and export them), Adobe compel its customers, without telling them, to buy severall hundred dollars Mainconcept Plug-in to allow them to export either AVCHD or XDCAM video formats from Premiere Pro CS4.

I'm bored of this now as your really not listening so lets make it really simple for you to understand....here is what you were trying to do (again quoting you...)

Let me tell you to finish I have allready tried to export XDCAM (EX) with MPEG-2 from Adobe Media Encoder and that it didn't work properly because it is impossible to get the precise XDCAM MPEG-2, so it has been impossible to get a lossless export. Such situation is of course a pity, because when you do edit a documentary you've worked several months on it, you want to archive it as well as you would archive, for exemple, a number one movie reel.

And here lies your problem...Your trying to get a lossless export by exporting into XDCAM as you think thats what you should do. It is not, it is a Lossy format and WILL NOT be a lossless export. However if you want a lossless export, there ARE many other options to do this using Media Encoder. Understand ?

[turk690]

It may or may not be his fault, but I know how Turmap feels when he finds out the end-to-end XDCAM issues when he tries CS4 out AFTER buying it.
This is probably similar to when AVCHD was, by some measure, already a popular consumer acquisition format when CS3 was there and because of its seeming popularity people fully expected CS3 to support it (okay, import only) out-of-the-box, or provide a later plug-in that will do the job. Understandably a lot were miffed when they found out about CS3's lack of AVCHD abilities after buying it (whole websites are dedicated to this issue, some vitriolic). Maybe these people also did not have the energie to go through the required number of mouse-clicks to get to the information in Adobe's hallowed site that says anything about this.
The moral is: just because it is a format out there (popular, unpopular, and everything in between) does not guarantee an NLE program will import and export it. Progenitors of that program will do everything in their power to obfuscate the program's weaknesses (including but not limited to lack of import/support in some formats) with some hammy techniques like requiring twenty mouse-clicks to get that information, barely toeing the legal line, but it's the buyer's duty to sift through all that documentation and not assume anything at first.
On the other hand, although exporting to a lossy format like XDCAM is kvetchy and one can always argue that there are better-qualified and more efficient formats out there to do so, I'm with Turmap when he says he should have been able to export to XDCAM when and if he chooses to do so for whatever reason.
Unfortunately that ideal professional NLE that imports AND exports with impunity on ALL formats it claims it supports WITHOUT needing additional (costly) plug-ins is NOT here yet.
Like, for dealing with AVCHD, CS4 is no better than CS3 even if CS4 can natively open it. Even on CS4 scrubbing an AVCHD timeline is a lame procedure even on an all-singing, all-dancing i7 processor-equipped PC. To be of any use with that format, US$99 has to be invested with Cineform Neo Scene on top of the $799 or so already spent for CS4. In the end, the heave-ho over CS3's lack of AVCHD support seems like a tempest in a teacup. Okay, in a draft beer barrel.

[Turmap]

Poisondeathray,

Thanks for your honesty. Otherwise, to export high bit rate audio PCM codec using much more compressed MPEG audio codec in order to then re-encode this audio codec with a free multiplexer is not appropriate at all. I do not want to lose more than two-thirds of my sound information !

Moreover, to me, sound is as important as images. Like I am used to say : I make images to "show" sounds.

Best regards.


JohnnyMalaria,

Everybody can indeed get to Adobe's explicit statement that Premiere 4 supports XDCAM *import* in three clicks from their home page. But I was speaking about getting to Adobe's explicit statement that Premiere doesn't export XDCAM formats. To get that information, you need 5 mouse clicks from the Premiere Pro CS4 home page (when you only need 1 from Final Cut Pro, Vegas and Edius home pages - Final Cut Pro, Vegas and Edius which, unlike Premiere, do export XDCAM formats).

I do think anyway that the fact you need 5 mouse clicks to reach such important informations demonstrates a willingness not to communicate them too much, that's the last that one can say...


Creamyhorror,

What you don't seem, nor don't want, to understand is :

- It is time for Adobe Premiere to smart render MPEG-2 (among others).
- It is time for Adobe Premiere to allow, for example, MPEG-2 exportation with uncompressed XDCAM EX audio codec PCM, without compelling customers to buy 359 $ / 279 € (plus appl. Tax) Mainconcept plug-in.
- It is time for Adobe Premiere to properly inform customers.


Fitch.j

What I did write is that within one or two clicks maximum, we do know precisely which video formats Final Cut, Edius and Vegas import, edit and export, which is not the case regarding Premiere Pro CS4.
What I did write is that Adobe compels its customers, without telling them, to buy severall hundred dollars Mainconcept Plug-in to allow them to export either AVCHD or XDCAM video formats from Premiere Pro CS4.
Nothing else.

Regarding Adobe Media Encoder solutions to export XDCAM formats you're speaking about, it is much more lossy than it could be. For example, how does it that it is impossible to export XDCAM EX Mpeg-2 with its PCM audio codec ?

Moreover, I repeat that it is time for Adobe Premiere to smart render MPEG-2 (among others).


Turk690

It's quite conforting that you're helping me to restore the truth !

Even if that ideal professional NLE that imports AND exports with impunity on ALL formats it claims it supports WITHOUT needing additional (costly) plug-ins is NOT here yet, it was important to demonstrate that, unlike Premiere Pro CS4, most professionals video softwares documentations do inform properly and do import, edit and export much more video formats than Premiere.