decent vcr replacement

[yuhr]

My old VCR is almost dead: it plays tapes, records manually (i. e. when I press the red RECORD button, even does programming but never actually records according to schedule. So, I decided to replace it with DVD recorder. My TV is one of the last CRT sets made, so the image quality is superb and therefore I don't need HD recorder. Other requirements: the gizmo should functionally be as close to a VCR as possible, i. e, it should have a build-in TV tuner and be programmable, allow up to 8 hours of recording (double-layer DVDRW?), a function similar to VCR "fast forward", to zip through commercials and... I think, that's it. I can copy DVDs on my PC, and I do no editing; once I watch a show, I can do next recording right over it; once in a blue moon my wife wants to keep a show or a movie, so for those rare occasions I can use CDs (what are they now? a quarter a piece?).
I did some preliminary search, the starting prices begin around $100. I do not want to buy the cheapest one (in the end they turn out to be the most expensive!). On the other hand, I don't want to pay for features I'll never use. Finally, I do no understand some terms at all, like "upconversion"; since virtually all of them have this, I have no choice anyway. And I think, I do not want one equipped with HDD: I want to record a show, watch it and then to record another one over it. It does not make sense to me to do double recording: first time to HDD, then to DVD, plus to waste my time on "editing".
So. I consider myself a virtual novice in the field and humbly ask for advice - what should I but and where. I hear that Amazon has good return policies, better than many manufacturers (just in case). Please advise.

[orsetto]

If I had a nickel for every American consumer who thought they "didn't need a hard drive", and then regretted not buying a DVD recorder with HDD, I'd be a millionaire. At this late stage, with DVD recorders on life support and almost nothing in stores worth buying anymore, the time for indulging this attitude is past.

In other words, get over it: you DO want a recorder with HDD. Why? Because its completely idiotic to buy a recorder without an HDD when you can buy one with an HDD for nearly the same price. Because its silly to erase a DVD over and over and over again, wearing out the recorder for nothing, if you don't actually want to keep the DVD for your library. Think about it: if you don't want a DVD, why burn one? A hard drive is designed for unlimited record/erase cycles, doesn't wear out with every use, never runs out of space, allows you to record 80 hours at the high quality speed, and allows you to play "catch up" with a show that may have started while you were out. An eraseable DVD, by contrast, will kill a recorder dead if its used many times over. It cannot hold more than two and a half hours without using horribly bad slow recording speeds (eraseable dvd is nothing like VHS: put any thoughts of 4, 6, or God forbid 8 hour recording speeds out of your mind). Forget dual layer discs: half the time they don't work, the only brand thats reliable is Verbatim, and they're too expensive to be practical.

Remember also, we have now completely switched over to digital broadcasting, and cable is also going digital. Along with all the other nightmares this has caused, the switch to digital requires a digital tuner in any recorder you want to use (unless you get TV thru a cable box or satellite box). Almost all the digital tuners built into DVD recorders are defective, interfering with timer recording and randomly stopping the machine in the middle of normal recording. There are only two recorders available today with digital tuners that aren't a complete disaster: the Panasonic EZ-28, and the Magnavox H2160. They cost about hte same when you find them, $230. The Magnavox has a hard drive, the Panasonic does not. Panasonic therefore loses: buy the Magnavox from Wal*Mart online. If you look around on the internet, reputable dealers like J&R in New York occasionally have sales on refurbished Magnavox H2160s for $159 or less: at that price they are the steal of the century. Buy one, while you still can. In todays market, nothing else is worth the prices they're asking.

[yuhr]

Thanks, orsetto!
You are right about recording (indefinitely) to HDD, instead of DVD. It just never occurred to me: my old 2003 or so PC has 80 GB HDD but I never thought of it in terms of recording volume! Now I know what to look for. So far (very preliminary superficial search) I found this very negative review:
http://www.amazon.com/Magnavox-H2080MW8-recorder-digital-tuner/product-reviews/B001HVB...owViewpoints=1
as well as this inexpensive no-brand name gizmo with excellent reviews: http://www.heartlandamerica.com/browse/item.asp?product=dvd-recorder-with-80gb-hard-dr...3AFF94&DL=IVU1, $179.
I will continue to look further but would appreciate your opinion about the latter. I already threw out 3 or 4 different Sony machines, including VCR and VCR/DVD combo, PC DVD burner, etc. I mean to say that a famous brand name does not equal top quality, and often a generic product easily beats famous names.
As I understand now, I even do not need a DVD recorder as such. A HDD with a RELIABLE tuner will do it for me, but for my wife I'll go with HDD/DVD Recorder combo; besides, I suspect that "naked" HDD with tuners do not exist. I watch so little TV that it does not pay for me to subscribe - I just put a Y-splitter on my PC cable and connected it to my TV, directly, without a cable box. I get over 30 channels, which is more than enough for me.

[johns0]

In other words, get over it: you DO want a recorder with HDD. Why? Because its completely idiotic to buy a recorder without an HDD when you can buy one with an HDD for nearly the same price. Because its silly to erase a DVD over and over and over again, wearing out the recorder for nothing, if you don't actually want to keep the DVD for your library.

I bought a dvd recorder without a hdd cause i record a show with a dvdrw and copy to my computer where i edit it and burn it.Not all people need a dvd recorder with a hdd and be called an idiot. :P

[jagabo]

Magnavox H2160 https://forum.videohelp.com/topic341172.html at Walmart.

[orsetto]

I bought a dvd recorder without a hdd cause i record a show with a dvdrw and copy to my computer where i edit it and burn it.Not all people need a dvd recorder with a hdd and be called an idiot. :P

That isn't what yuhr said he wants to do: yuhr wants to simply timeshift and erase, no archiving or editing at all. For that purpose, a DVD recorder without HDD is indeed "idiotic", because you'll kill its burner by repeatedly burning an RW in real time, and the capacity limits of a DVD/RW mean you can't record a long string of programs unless you use the really lousy super-slow speeds. For pure timeshifting in high quality with any degree of flexibility, you need the HDD. Your reasoning for your own purposes is also flawed: I would not be caught dead without a HDD in my recorder, even if my intent is to re-author all its recordings on the PC. Why? Because the same benefits apply! Ability to record very long movies or sports or show marathons or keep up with many shows when I'm away. Ability to record everything at the higher quality speeds, splitting long recordings across two RWs for import into my PC. I mean, if you're going to freaking bother archiving at all, why hamstring yourself with a klutzy non-HDD recorder? Theres no good reason: it kills me how many people will piss a thousand dollars away on a "must-have" PS3 or WII and games for it, who blow $90 a month on their cell phones, spent another thousand or more on a flat panel display, and who knows how much on their computer and authoring software, but then suddenly feel "oh no, $50-100 more for an HDD in my video recorder is a total ripoff, I'll take the crippled DVD-only recorder, thanks". Its just a bizarre attitude, and it destroyed the market for good recorders in North America.

yuhr, the links you posted both seem to be for the Magnavox 2080. I forgot about that one, for your needs its perfect and even cheaper than the H2160. The H2160 is newer with a somewhat better tuner (for cable), better remote, and better interface for burning DVDs. But since you primarily just want the hard drive feature the 2080 would be fine for you- ignore the negative reviews about the DVD system being "complicated": this is true of all dvd recorders, and you aren't interested in burning many DVDs anyway. The remote for the 2080 is a bit fiddly but you can always buy the nicer 2160 remote for $12.95 direct from the mfr. And the smaller 2080 hard drive "only" holds 36 hours at the SP speed. BUT, its on sale right now as a refurb from good dealers like J&R online for $129: an excellent bargain. These Magnavoxes are not perfect, they're built to be affordable and decent and thats what they are. They cost half the price of the fancier Pioneers and Panasonics, etc, many of us on VH use, but work just as well for timeshifting (the fancier brands are more suited to those who primarily want to make DVDs from the HDD).

[yuhr]

Sorry, my bad. Here is the correct link: http://www.heartlandamerica.com/browse/item.asp?product=dvd-recorder-with-80gb-hard-dr...3AFF94&DL=IVU1 . If you still have problems, type "heartlandamerica.com" and search for this:
<<<<<<<<<<<DVD Recorder With 80GB Hard Drive
An 80GB DVD recorder, progressive scan DVD player and a digital TV tuner in one - others charge much more for performance like this!
This incredible system captures your favorite shows and home movies in brilliant digital quality. The 80GB hard drive stores all the action and once recorded, you can burn them to DVD in just seconds. You can copy DVDs to the hard drive too. Other quality features include progressive scan video out, five recording speeds, 1 month/36 event programming, Dolby Digital output, satellite link recording, virtual surround sound system, digital TV tuner which meets all new broadcast standards, S-video in/out and more. Compatible with virtually all DVD and CD technologies. Comes with remote. Approx. 16-1/2" x 11-1/2" x 2-1/2". 90-day limited warranty. Factory serviced to meet original quality standards. May have slight cosmetic blemishes.
Product Reviews
8/7/2009 - MAP - Gainesville, FL
I am quite impressed, excellent value and ease of operation, even recovered
discs I thought were trashed by other
make/model recorders. As usual recieved product quickly. Thanks Heartland America!
>>>>>It looks like it's priced ~$180+$4 for shipping!
However, this morning I decided to wait a bit till they learn how to make digital tuners and some other things. For 25 years I have used VCRs and finally, just when they learned to make good machines, they virtually stopped making them; so far I was unable to find pure "VCR recorder". Everything comes as VCR/DVD combo. For under $80 I probably will buy one of those and in a few years its replacement will be a better and more reliable HDD/DVD combo. HDD has another important (to me) feature: "fast forward" kind of skipping commercials. As far as editing. I would've done it right there, on HDD. If a PC does it better, this is one more reason to wait a bit for industry improvements.
Thank you all guys for you help, today I know much more about the field.

[jagabo]

so far I was unable to find pure "VCR recorder". Everything comes as VCR/DVD combo. For under $80 I probably will buy one of those and in a few years...

It won't last that long.

its replacement will be a better and more reliable HDD/DVD combo.

HDD/DVD recorders probably won't be available anymore.

[PhoneMatt]

Just to be clear, I own a Magnavox 2160, along with a Philips 3576 and a Panny EZ-28.
Given your choices, I would go with the Magnavox. It has a 160G hard drive. Believe me, even just time shifting, that will fill quickly. (At SP- 2 hr mode, that is only 60 hours of video.) The machine that you have mentioned has an 80G drive, about 30 hours. (Trust me, you don't want to go with the slower speeds. They can be painful to watch.)
I've never had a problem with the timer on the Mag missing a program, and it has a decent tuner in it. The clincher for me is that the Mag has an HDMI output and does upconverting. You may not need it now, but who knows what's you may need in a year. Even with the difference in price, I would go with the Mag.

[orsetto]

It depends what your top priority is, yuhr. If money is the most important consideration, and things are tight for you right now (as they are for many of us), the cheaper Magnavox is a great deal and will get the job done for you: even the cheaper Mag will blow you away by how much more convenient it is than a VCR. The drawback to the cheaper Magnavox is it was an earlier model, and electronically not quite as durable as the current more expensive H2160. The newer model is significantly better electronically and would probably last you a very long time. Assuming you primarily use the HDD for recording, you should get 2-3 years or more before it wears out, and if it does wear out the hard drive is easily user-replaced on this model. The cheaper Magnavox has been known to fail in other areas like the tuner and power supply, if those crap out then you unfortunately have to throw the thing away.

jagabo is correct when he says there probably won't be anything similar around two years from now to buy, so if you're thinking long-term, opt for the H2160 with its more durable basic chassis. Then all you'll ever possibly need to replace is the HDD. Whatever you decide to buy, now is the time, because there's no other affordable HDD-equipped recorder left for sale in the USA: its a dead market here, and no mfr bothers with them any more. As illogical as it seems, with all the talk about hard economic times, the vast majority of US consumers prefer subscription recorders like the TiVO or cable/satellite rental PVRs: very very few folks want their own "independent" recorder. So no mfr wants to waste effort trying to sell them here (they do very well in other countries that don't have such high TiVO or cable/satellite penetration.)