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  1. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by alegator View Post
    ...
    So based on my replies, my question would be: it seems the dropped frames are not system-related, but maybe caused by a failed recording on tape due to maybe a dirty head at the time of recording. If so, would you consider 2 to 6 dropped frames negligible taking into account that the total is 63min? (more than 30000 frames?). Thanks
    If dropped frame happened during recording, there is nothing you can do other than edit around it. It could be dirty heads at recording time or an inferior tape. I usually use Panasonic PQ tape for both DV and HDV recording.

    As said above, I haven't had dropped frame problems at all except at extreme tape ends. You could edit around 2 to 6 frames.
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  2. Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    If dropped frame happened during recording, there is nothing you can do other than edit around it. It could be dirty heads at recording time or an inferior tape. I usually use Panasonic PQ tape for both DV and HDV recording.

    As said above, I haven't had dropped frame problems at all except at extreme tape ends. You could edit around 2 to 6 frames.
    I only use Sony MiniDV HD tapes which I only use once (never re record tapes) and are considered among the best in quality:

    http://www.amazon.com/Sony-DVC-63min-Videocassette-Pack/dp/B0010PASMY/ref=sr_1_15?ie=U...374697&sr=8-15

    The dropped frames from what I checked do not happen at extreme tape ends as in your case, but at points where there are timecode discontinuities (the place where a split happens).

    I thought about my old CPU (Pentium 4 3.06GHz), but I checked CPU usage during HDV capture and it only goes to about 13% max., plus as said before I make sure there's no other app running in the background.

    So I'm wondering what could be the culprit. The only test I can think of is trying the capture with a current generation PC (Core i7, etc). Since I have so many HDV tapes to capture, I also wonder if maybe I should wait for my next PC upgrade, or just conform to a few dropped frames per tape.
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by alegator View Post
    The dropped frames from what I checked do not happen at extreme tape ends as in your case, but at points where there are timecode discontinuities (the place where a split happens).
    That could just be a camcorder edit point accuracy issue. I doubt "batch capture" is accurate to the frame in all cases. In normal cases one edits inside the captured clip.
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  4. This thread was a good read. I'm still trying to untangle my tape mess. Fortunately I have my MiniDV tapes squared away. My Canon MiniDV camera had a bad transport so a lot of my tapes had a drop here and there. Honestly, unless you are doing commercial shoots, which I assume not bacause you are using a consumer camera, a lost frame here and there should go unnoticed.

    My unsolicited opinion is to get away from tape. The only advantage I see with tape is you have an instant archival copy of all your footage (or maybe you have a tape camera with top notch optics you can't let go). But then again, what's the point of tape backups when in 25 years you can't find a machine to play them? Tape is a complete PIA. Some of the new HD camcorders that record to SD memory are VERY nice. Furthermore, the image quality from some mid-range DSLRs rival commercial rigs (but we all know there are still a lot of hitches there). HDDs are cheap and so are SD cards. Save yourself some trouble and get away from tape.
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  5. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by magillagorilla View Post
    This thread was a good read. I'm still trying to untangle my tape mess. Fortunately I have my MiniDV tapes squared away. My Canon MiniDV camera had a bad transport so a lot of my tapes had a drop here and there. Honestly, unless you are doing commercial shoots, which I assume not bacause you are using a consumer camera, a lost frame here and there should go unnoticed.

    that's correct for DVavi, but not for HDV tapes. HDV is long gop mpeg-2 and a single dropout can take out 30 fields or 1/2 a second of footage and cause the loss of the audio for the remainder of the file.
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  6. "single dropout can take out 30 fields " ug, that sucks! All the more reason to get off tape. No more concerns about computer performance or firewire ports to transfer video. I just plug in a USB cable and drag and drop. I'm not trying to troll on tape users, but this thread is really old and it seem there some logical, more permanent solutions to the situation. Then again, as they say, the "best" camera is the one already in your hand.
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  7. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    Originally Posted by magillagorilla View Post
    This thread was a good read. I'm still trying to untangle my tape mess. Fortunately I have my MiniDV tapes squared away. My Canon MiniDV camera had a bad transport so a lot of my tapes had a drop here and there. Honestly, unless you are doing commercial shoots, which I assume not bacause you are using a consumer camera, a lost frame here and there should go unnoticed.

    that's correct for DVavi, but not for HDV tapes. HDV is long gop mpeg-2 and a single dropout can take out 30 fields or 1/2 a second of footage and cause the loss of the audio for the remainder of the file.
    Originally Posted by magillagorilla View Post
    "single dropout can take out 30 fields " ug, that sucks! All the more reason to get off tape. No more concerns about computer performance or firewire ports to transfer video. I just plug in a USB cable and drag and drop. I'm not trying to troll on tape users, but this thread is really old and it seem there some logical, more permanent solutions to the situation. Then again, as they say, the "best" camera is the one already in your hand.
    Slow down guys, HDV drops are rare. The 30 field issue only applies if the drop hits the I frame in the GOP (one I frame per 15 frame GOP). Error correction saves most of the rest. The same is true for SD media and AVCHD.

    The OP seems to be trying to edit with "batch capture" since his hardware is too slow for native HDV editing. His "frame drops" are at the ends of batch captured clips. Most people would capture clips with heads and tails to allow more precise editing on the timeline. His HC3 (an early Sony HDV cam) may not have frame precision for batch capture.

    A key issue is class 6-10 SD media has street prices about 10x Pro MiniDV tape (e.g. PQ).

    SD cards have many failure modes that have been detailed in other posts. I'd go so far to assert you are far more likely to lose GOPs, entire clips or worse in SD media vs DVC tape.
    Last edited by edDV; 11th Jul 2011 at 21:34.
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  8. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    don't fret, dropouts or no, i still think HDV is a current class leader for pro/consumer HD video.
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  9. "SD cards have many failure modes that have been detailed in other posts. I'd go so far to assert you are far more likely to lose GOPs, entire clips or worse in SD media vs DVC tape. "

    I won't argue the stability issue. SD can crap out, but rarely. I've had 1 card go bad out of dozens over the past 8 years. It was a generic card, so lesson learned. The risk is worth it to me as tape is a complete pain in the ass.

    I know tape is also the defacto for pro/semi-pro use but I see a day when it goes away. I still get nervous not having a physical tape backup sometimes. That's why I make 3 HDD backups. 1 in the computer, 1 on the shelf and 1 offsite.

    To add, I never even considered getting a camcorder with an internal HDD. I've had more HDDs go bad on me than any other media.
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  10. Member edDV's Avatar
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    The trend is to flash ram in pro camcorders as well but media cost is high and one needs a backup strategy.

    Tape by comparison may be less convenient but is very cost effective and provides an instant backup (after capture). There were several times the tape saved me after hard disk failure.

    Thanks for reminding me to update my off-site backups. Forest fire season is coming.
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  11. Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Originally Posted by alegator View Post
    The dropped frames from what I checked do not happen at extreme tape ends as in your case, but at points where there are timecode discontinuities (the place where a split happens).
    That could just be a camcorder edit point accuracy issue. I doubt "batch capture" is accurate to the frame in all cases. In normal cases one edits inside the captured clip.
    I'm not doing "batch capture", I'm just capturing the entire tape to a single file using HDVSplit.Even so, the dropped frames show up as explained. They also show up when I use HDVSplit to have scene detection split the single captured file. And as a test I had HDVSplit split the different sequences while capturing. In all three cases there were dropped frames in the range of 2 to 6 frames.
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  12. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by alegator View Post
    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Originally Posted by alegator View Post
    The dropped frames from what I checked do not happen at extreme tape ends as in your case, but at points where there are timecode discontinuities (the place where a split happens).
    That could just be a camcorder edit point accuracy issue. I doubt "batch capture" is accurate to the frame in all cases. In normal cases one edits inside the captured clip.
    I'm not doing "batch capture", I'm just capturing the entire tape to a single file using HDVSplit.Even so, the dropped frames show up as explained. They also show up when I use HDVSplit to have scene detection split the single captured file. And as a test I had HDVSplit split the different sequences while capturing. In all three cases there were dropped frames in the range of 2 to 6 frames.
    Where were those dropped frames in relation to in and out point (aka start/stop)?
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  13. Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Where were those dropped frames in relation to in and out point (aka start/stop)?
    Ok, here is how I captured. I fully rewinded each tape, then I just clicked the record button in HDVSplit so the In Point is the very beginning of the tape. Then I let the capture process go by itself until the tape reaches the end (63min approx) at which time HDVSplit automatically detects this and stops the capture, so the Out Point is the very end of the tape. As to the dropped frames that are detected (in the range of 2 to 6 per tape for the 3 tapes I captured already), they DO NOT show in the very beginning or the very end of the capture process, they appear somewhere in between of the capture and not necessarily during a timecode discontinuity. If you want more specific location info of the dropped frames I can take note of it in my next capture and post it.
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  14. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Without more detail, it is difficult to speculate what is happening.

    I see no drops when I capture 1 minute in to tape end. Like I said, I also "black the tape" before use so that all clips are recorded as inserts rather than assemble (appended) edits.
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  15. Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Without more detail, it is difficult to speculate what is happening.

    I see no drops when I capture 1 minute in to tape end. Like I said, I also "black the tape" before use so that all clips are recorded as inserts rather than assemble (appended) edits.
    I never reuse tapes so the recordings were made on brand new tapes, there was no need to black them. Like I said, there were no drops at least 2 minutes from tape start and in to tape end. What else is exactly the "detail" that you are asking for? Thanks
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  16. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    sounds like the cam may have had dirty heads at the time of recording if the dropout frames are there in the exact spot if you try to re-capture them. nothing to do but get on with it and make the best of editing around them.
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  17. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Detail would be the clip containing the drop. You can attach about 8 sec of AVCHD here (30MB).
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