Sony HC3 firewire port dead,cheap miniDV camcorder to use for transfer?

[aedipuss]

you really only have one choice for capturing. HDV. try HDVsplit, it's free and works well.

[rumplestiltskin]

I'm not sure how it works on the PC but, on the Mac, you will eventually have to convert to AIC or ProRes (AIC isn't available for PCs I'm sure). ProRes is -almost- uncompressed so your editing process will be much easier. I guess the final format for editing should be something your NLE software is happy with. Check your documentation. As for capture, do not apply any add'l compression so that HDV recommendation is probably correct.

[zoobie]

Good news! I finally had the Sony HC3's firewire port repaired. Now I have to transfer all those recorded MiniDV tapes (1080i) to the PC. What video format would be the most pure "RAW" uncompressed to choose from in the capture process? And what software is best for achieving this? Thanks

You'll want to capture out the HDMI port to something like Blackmagic and bypassing HDV compression
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

[edDV]

Good news! I finally had the Sony HC3's firewire port repaired. Now I have to transfer all those recorded MiniDV tapes (1080i) to the PC. What video format would be the most pure "RAW" uncompressed to choose from in the capture process? And what software is best for achieving this? Thanks

You'll want to capture out the HDMI port to something like Blackmagic and bypassing HDV compression
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

The video is recorded to tape in HDV format (MPeg2 TS packets). When you capture via Firewire, you are getting a one to one exact copy of the tape data to an MPeg2 file with mts extension. There is no advantage to using the decompressed HDMI port for transferring video off tape. There is some advantage if recording live camera to PC via uncompressed HDMI.

[edDV]

I'm not sure how it works on the PC but, on the Mac, you will eventually have to convert to AIC or ProRes (AIC isn't available for PCs I'm sure). ProRes is -almost- uncompressed so your editing process will be much easier. I guess the final format for editing should be something your NLE software is happy with. Check your documentation. As for capture, do not apply any add'l compression so that HDV recommendation is probably correct.

On the PC, programs like Premiere Pro and Vegas Pro can edit HDV or AVCHD natively*, or digital intermediates (Avid DNxHD, Cineform, or other) can be used. The Mac only supports digital intermediates or fully decompressed. Apple's own digital intermediates are AIC (8 bit 4:2:0) or ProRes422 (8 or 10 bit). Third party DNxHD and Cineform can be used on the Mac.


*Native HDV/XDCAM (MPeg2 TS) can be edited with a Core2 Duo or better. Native AVCHD (h.264) needs a quad core or better.

Vegas Pro will "smart edit" DV/HDV/XDCAM but not yet AVCHD/NXCAM. "Smart edit" retains first generation GOPs to the export file with re-encoding only done at edit point GOP or when filters are used.

[alegator]

The video is recorded to tape in HDV format (MPeg2 TS packets). When you capture via Firewire, you are getting a one to one exact copy of the tape data to an MPeg2 file with mts extension. There is no advantage to using the decompressed HDMI port for transferring video off tape. There is some advantage if recording live camera to PC via uncompressed HDMI.

So if I use for example Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 to capture from the MiniDV tape onto my PC choosing "HDV" Capture Format from the settings menu, will that preserve the original MiniDV tape format?

[edDV]

The video is recorded to tape in HDV format (MPeg2 TS packets). When you capture via Firewire, you are getting a one to one exact copy of the tape data to an MPeg2 file with mts extension. There is no advantage to using the decompressed HDMI port for transferring video off tape. There is some advantage if recording live camera to PC via uncompressed HDMI.

So if I use for example Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 to capture from the MiniDV tape onto my PC choosing "HDV" Capture Format from the settings menu, will that preserve the original MiniDV tape format?

Not exactly. It depends what format is on the "MiniDV" tape.

If the tape contains HDV format, you would switch the camera into HDV output mode, then capture as HDV format with Premiere Pro Capture. Or you could use HDVSplit for capture. Result is an MPeg2 mts file.

If the tape contains SD DV format, you would switch the camera into DV output mode, then capture as DV format with Premiere Pro Capture (not HDV mode). Or you could use WinDV for capture. Result is a DV-AVI file.

In both cases you get a bit for bit copy from tape to file.

Note that HDV camcorders offer a third option. If the tape contains HDV format, it is possible to down convert 1440x1080i HDV to 720x480i DV in the camera hardware and capture realtime to a DV-AVI file.

[alegator]

Thanks edDV, I was implicitly assuming that the tape contains HDV format. My question was if Premiere's HDV format was exactly in all its parameters to the camcorders' HDV. And I understand that your answer is YES, as you said that it'll result in a bit for bit copy.

[edDV]

Thanks edDV, I was implicitly assuming that the tape contains HDV format. My question was if Premiere's HDV format was exactly in all its parameters to the camcorders' HDV. And I understand that your answer is YES, as you said that it'll result in a bit for bit copy.

Yes.

Just making sure everyone understands that "MiniDV" tape does not define the format of the video files on the tape.

[alegator]

When I create a new capture project in Premiere I'm given sequence presets. Under "HDV" the choices are (there are more, but they are 720p, not 1080):
HDV 1080i25 (50i)
HDV 1080i30 (60i)
HDV 1080p24
HDV 1080p25
HDV 1080p30
The preset I should choose for an HDV tape recorded with the Sony HC3 should be HDV 1080i30 (60i) right?

I also have DV tapes recorded with the HC3. The preset options available in Premiere are:
Standard 32khz
Standard 48khz
Widescreen 32khz
Widescreen 48khz
The preset I should choose is Standard 48 right? I know that it depends on how I recorded the tape, but if I forgot, is there any way of checking the tape's format within the camcorder?

[edDV]

When I create a new capture project in Premiere I'm given sequence presets. Under "HDV" the choices are (there are more, but they are 720p, not 1080):
HDV 1080i25 (50i)
HDV 1080i30 (60i)
HDV 1080p24
HDV 1080p25
HDV 1080p30
The preset I should choose for an HDV tape recorded with the Sony HC3 should be HDV 1080i30 (60i) right?

For the "NTSC" market and the Sony HC3 the HDV default is 1440x1080 60i (new terminology*)

Other HDV camcorders allow 30p or 24p (23.976 actually) frame rates.

50i amd 25p are for "PAL" market HDV

JVC and some pro cams specialize in 1280x720p HDV.


* 29.97i, "30i", "59.94i" and "60i" are different ways to say the same thing. Camera and edit software settings have moved from 29.97i to 60i in recent versions.

I also have DV tapes recorded with the HC3. The preset options available in Premiere are:
Standard 32khz
Standard 48khz
Widescreen 32khz
Widescreen 48khz
The preset I should choose is Standard 48 right? I know that it depends on how I recorded the tape, but if I forgot, is there any way of checking the tape's format within the camcorder?

The 2 channel PCM audio setting is 48 KHz. The camera setting will only tell you how the camera is currently set. Do a test capture and drag the DV-AVI file to mediainfo to check a pre-recorded audio setting. In most cases you will want the camera and project set to 16 bit 48 KHz. In consumer DV cams, 12 bit 32 KHz is only used for certain "in camera" editing modes.

Typical DV (4:3 in this case)

General
Complete name : T:\DVa.11-06-29_20-29.00.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
Format_Commercial_IfAny : DV
File size : 24.8 MiB
Duration : 6s 807ms
Overall bit rate : 30.6 Mbps

Video
ID : 0
Format : DV
Codec ID : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint : Sony
Duration : 6s 807ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 24.4 Mbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:1:1
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357
Stream size : 23.3 MiB (94%)

Audio
ID : 1
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : 1
Codec ID/Hint : Microsoft
Duration : 6s 807ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 1.25 MiB (5%)
Interleave, duration : 33 ms (1.00 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration : 33 ms

[alegator]

There's something I don't get. What is the point of the capture sequence presets? Say for example my MiniDV tape was recorded in camera with the HDV 1080i30 (60i) format, but when capturing in Premiere I choose the HDV 1080i25 (50i) sequence preset instead of the proper 60i one. What would be the final format of the captured video in the PC? Will it preserve the 60i original format or will it be a 50i encoded version of the original 60i?

[edDV]

There's something I don't get. What is the point of the capture sequence presets? Say for example my MiniDV tape was recorded in camera with the HDV 1080i30 (60i) format, but when capturing in Premiere I choose the HDV 1080i25 (50i) sequence preset instead of the proper 60i one. What would be the final format of the captured video in the PC? Will it preserve the 60i original format or will it be a 50i encoded version of the original 60i?

There is no encoding going on in an HDV "capture" but if you choose (50i) in settings for a 60i capture there is a risk Premiere is going to mess with the MPeg2 TS header. Try to get it correct.

The good thing about HDVSplit is they don't give you the opportunity to screw up the capture.

[alegator]

Is it better to capture the tape in different clips or capture the whole tape and then generate the clips from the captured file? I was thinking the 2nd method reduces the camcorder's video head tear and wear.

[edDV]

Is it better to capture the tape in different clips or capture the whole tape and then generate the clips from the captured file? I was thinking the 2nd method reduces the camcorder's video head tear and wear.

Either works. Depends on how you shot the material and your preference. Camcorder wear isn't a big issue.

[alegator]

Playing the captured file from the PC/notebook (via HDMI OUT) and viewing it in a 1080p full HD TV will have the same display quality as playing the video directly from the tape (camcorder connected to TV via HDMI)?

[edDV]

Playing the captured file from the PC/notebook (via HDMI OUT) and viewing it in a 1080p full HD TV will have the same display quality as playing the video directly from the tape (camcorder connected to TV via HDMI)?

Similar but not the same. Different hardware is being used.

HDV format on tape is 4:2:0 sampled, 1440x1080 60i.

When played out the HDMI port, the camcorder hardware resamples chroma and rescales luma to 4:2:2 1920x1080 60i. The HDTV will then deinterlace to 1920x1080 60p or frame repeat to 120p.

The HDV mts file captured to PC disk is identical to the data on tape, that is 4:2:0 sampled, 1440x1080 60i. Playback to the PC HDMI port varies by the software player used, player settings and the display card settings. Let's assume VLC as player and a typical NVIDIA display card.

The NVIDIA control panel allows setting the HDMI port to 1920x1080 60i (aka 29.97 fps) or 1920x1080 60p (aka 59.94 fps).



If you set output to 60i and run VLC in deinterlace off mode, then the VLC player (or NVIDIA hardware in DXVA mode) will rescale 1440x1080 60i to 1920x1080 60i and resample chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2. If set up properly, the HDTV will then deinterlace to 1920x1080 60p or frame repeat to 120p.

With the more common 60p HDMI output setting, The software player or display card hardware will perform the deinterlace, chroma resample and luma resize depending on player settings. Then the HDTV simply displays 60p or frame repeats to 120p.

[alegator]

The NVIDIA control panel allows setting the HDMI port to 1920x1080 60i (aka 29.97 fps) or 1920x1080 60p (aka 59.94 fps).

Is that the "1080p, 1920x1080 at 59Hz" option that shows in the Control Panel?
I've read that Adobe software is optimized for Nvidia cards. Would you recommend Nvidia over ATI?

Similar but not the same. Different hardware is being used.

Are we talking of noticeable viewing differences or just subtle?

Also, if I ever want to restore the original tape and transfer the captured video to tape, will I be able to do so in a bit per bit copy without losing any of the original properties of the tape? If so, how? Thanks

[aedipuss]

if you want a card that works with current adobe software as a gpu accelerator the list is small and only some nvidia cards are on it, and no ati.

[edDV]

The NVIDIA control panel allows setting the HDMI port to 1920x1080 60i (aka 29.97 fps) or 1920x1080 60p (aka 59.94 fps).

Is that the "1080p, 1920x1080 at 59Hz" option that shows in the Control Panel?
I've read that Adobe software is optimized for Nvidia cards. Would you recommend Nvidia over ATI?

"59Hz" yes (actual is 59.94 Hz)

As said, currently Adobe only supports "cuda" acceleration on certain NVIDIA GTX cards. Otherwise ATI cards will work.

Similar but not the same. Different hardware is being used.

Are we talking of noticeable viewing differences or just subtle?

There are major differences depending on the PC settings and the quality of your HDTV hardware deinterlace processor. A good quality HDTV set will usually beat realtime software Yadif deinterlace.

Also, if I ever want to restore the original tape and transfer the captured video to tape, will I be able to do so in a bit per bit copy without losing any of the original properties of the tape? If so, how? Thanks

You can do that via the IEEE-1394 (Firewire) interface. You can't transfer data to the camcorder over HDMI.

If you capture over Firewire, edit in HDV project mode in Vegas, you can export print back to HDV tape over Firewire. Premiere CS3 lacked "print to HDV tape". It may have been added to CS4 or CS5.

[alegator]

OK, so after gathering all the information (thanks for all your replies) I was ready today to do my first capture of the 1st HDV MiniDV tape from my Sony HC3 via firewire using Premiere CS4. The idea is creating all the offline clips marking the In and Out points and then just do a batch capture of the selected clips. Now the problem is the following. My first tape was recorded in such a way that no matter if I choose FRAMES or TIMECODE, as I play the tape it will go from 0 to a certain number and after that scene finishes it will drop to 0 and increase again to a certain number for the next scene and so on repeatedly for each scene until the end of the tape. So there is no scale or unit that I can choose that will show 0 for the beginning of the tape and increase linearly to a certain number for the end of the tape (63minutes total) and hence the different clips will intersect. How can I fix this? Thanks.

[edDV]

I can't answer since I don't have CS4 at this location.

If you capture the full 62 minutes linearly with HDVsplit, the timecode will be 00:00:00 to 01:02:00 for the captured file. You can then cut your scenes out of it.

[alegator]

Thanks, I will try HDVsplit, it seems to be the best choice for HDV capture. I was trying to solve the Premiere issue by using SCENE DETECTION, but I found out that CS4 does not support HDV Scene Detection. Also, for DV capture, I read that Scenalyzer Live is better than Premiere.
Going back to HDVsplit, I explored the GUI and here are some questions:
- If I choose "Scenes split" should I also mark "Synchronize audio and video"? If I don't mark it , will capture be not synchronized?
- What Frame Size should I choose to warrant a bit per bit copy, Full, 1/4,1/6 or 1/64?
UPDATE: I found out that the "Frame Size" is only for the preview, so it does not affect the capture.

[aedipuss]

for miniDV capture use winDV.

[edDV]

Going back to HDVsplit, I explored the GUI and here are some questions:
- If I choose "Scenes split" should I also mark "Synchronize audio and video"? If I don't mark it , will capture be not synchronized?.

I don't have the program open now but I'd check that option as a first test. I've never had a proglem in the past with non-sync audio. Scene split will follow timecode discontinuities.

- What Frame Size should I choose to warrant a bit per bit copy, Full, 1/4,1/6 or 1/64?
UPDATE: I found out that the "Frame Size" is only for the preview, so it does not affect the capture.

That only affect the preview window. Smaller preview windows use less CPU to decode the stream. The stream to file is bit for bit.

[edDV]

for miniDV capture use winDV.

WinDV for DV format tapes

HDVSplit for HDV format tapes.

[alegator]

I already captured 3 MiniDV HDV tapes with HDVSplit and I have some concerns:
1) For the first tape I performed a test. I captured the whole 63min tape to a single file without split (case A), and I had HDVSplit split while capturing (case B). For case A the utility reported 2 dropped frames and total size 11.4Gb in a single file (12,339,682,304 bytes) and for case B there were 3 dropped frames and total size 11.4Gb in 161 files (12,340,692,992 bytes).
Is it normal to have 2 to 6 dropped frames in HDV capture or should it be 0? And how come in case B with more dropped frames the file size is a bit bigger?
2) For tapes 2 and 3 I had 4 and 6 dropped frames respectively. Again, is this normal? Or should it be 0?
3) If I'm going to be capturing many tapes these days, should I unplug the firewire cable from the camcorder after I finish a session for the day? Or should I leave it plugged to avoid tear and wear of the ilink port? My concern is that leaving it plugged might fry the port again...
4) As an observation, HDVSplit perfectly recognized my camcorder (it displayed Sony HDR-HC3), while Premiere did not (I had to set it to "Sony Generic"). Also, I like the fact that if I do some other task while capturing (browse the net, etc), HDVSplit does not quit, whereas Premiere will stop capturing if some other window is opened.

[edDV]

I already captured 3 MiniDV HDV tapes with HDVSplit and I have some concerns:
1) For the first tape I performed a test. I captured the whole 63min tape to a single file without split (case A), and I had HDVSplit split while capturing (case B). For case A the utility reported 2 dropped frames and total size 11.4Gb in a single file (12,339,682,304 bytes) and for case B there were 3 dropped frames and total size 11.4Gb in 161 files (12,340,692,992 bytes).
Is it normal to have 2 to 6 dropped frames in HDV capture or should it be 0? And how come in case B with more dropped frames the file size is a bit bigger?
2) For tapes 2 and 3 I had 4 and 6 dropped frames respectively. Again, is this normal? Or should it be 0?

I see you also have an ADVC-100 in your computer spec. Do you ever see dropped frames with that? If so it may be a system issue. Whenever possible capture to a second internal hard drive especially if running other apps during capture.

More likely the dropped frames are tape related. These appear at the start or end of the tape or if there are gaps between clips. I rarely see dropped frames. I still "black my tapes" and start recording 1 minute in to avoid the tape end issues.

If you see a dropped frame in the middle of a clip, you can attempt re-capture. I rarely have that happen. Also run a cleaning tape for a few seconds before a major shoot.

3) If I'm going to be capturing many tapes these days, should I unplug the firewire cable from the camcorder after I finish a session for the day? Or should I leave it plugged to avoid tear and wear of the ilink port? My concern is that leaving it plugged might fry the port again...
4) As an observation, HDVSplit perfectly recognized my camcorder (it displayed Sony HDR-HC3), while Premiere did not (I had to set it to "Sony Generic"). Also, I like the fact that if I do some other task while capturing (browse the net, etc), HDVSplit does not quit, whereas Premiere will stop capturing if some other window is opened.

You are most likely gong to have static issues when connecting the cables. I'd keep it connected. If you connect or disconnect, do at the computer port end so if there is a spark, it frys the computer end which is cheaper to repair. Again I have never had a Firewire port failure.

The most dangerous ground issues come when other equipment is connected to the camcorder (e.g. a video or audio monitor). In that case all ground voltage errors will threaten the Firewire port if you connect at the camcorder end after connecting the computer end.

[aedipuss]

if you continue to see dropped frames try a miniDV head cleaning tape. a single dropped frame can cause the loss of 1/2 a second of video and i've seen the audio drop out completely from that point to the end of the clip.

sorry when i said to use winDV for miniDV i miss spoke and meant DVavi of course. forgive me it was late and at the end of a good bottle of red...

[alegator]

I see you also have an ADVC-100 in your computer spec. Do you ever see dropped frames with that?If so it may be a system issue. Whenever possible capture to a second internal hard drive especially if running other apps during capture.

It's been a long time since I used the ADVC-100 for capturing Hi8 tapes. As far as I can remember there were no dropped frames. I know that HDV requires CPU, but capturing does not. I mention this since I'm using a Pentium4 3.06Ghz system with 2Gb RAM but I'm capturing to a secondary internal hard drive. Also, I make sure not to have other apps running during capture, not even the preview window offered by HDVSplit.

If you see a dropped frame in the middle of a clip, you can attempt re-capture. I rarely have that happen. Also run a cleaning tape for a few seconds before a major shoot.

I did attempt re-capture, but those dropped frames do show again at the same tape positions.

if you continue to see dropped frames try a miniDV head cleaning tape. a single dropped frame can cause the loss of 1/2 a second of video and i've seen the audio drop out completely from that point to the end of the clip.

sorry when i said to use winDV for miniDV i miss spoke and meant DVavi of course. forgive me it was late and at the end of a good bottle of red...

The audio does not drop out at all from that point to the end of the clip, aside from the dropped frames the rest of the capture process is successful. Also, I doubt the culprit is a dirty head since the camcorder was just serviced with a complete internal cleaning. As a side note, I forgive you only because it was a good bottle of red!

So based on my replies, my question would be: it seems the dropped frames are not system-related, but maybe caused by a failed recording on tape due to maybe a dirty head at the time of recording. If so, would you consider 2 to 6 dropped frames negligible taking into account that the total is 63min? (more than 30000 frames?). Thanks