old VHS restoration

[pirej]

Hi to all, this is my first question on the forum, so, il try to do it right....
First, to explain the source of the video.
I have some old VHS tapes from 1973, they were shot in NTSC, but then.. 10 years ago, converted to PAL by some pro or just ''pro'' in USA, so that i can watch them here in Europe.
They were not shot in VHS in first place, but transvered aftherwards. So... there was a lot of mesing up until i got my hands on the videos.
Now, im begining to transfer them to HDD and then to DVD, for watching on TV.
I made a test capture in MJEPG, just to see what kind of headake ill have
The question is.. what kind of deinterlacing do you propose???
I didn't wont to deinterlace, but as you can see in the frame-screenshot, the lower field is baaaadd...
Should i just discard the field?
Thats all for now, if anybody has any sugestions about other filtering of the video... please tel me, becouse i know a little bit of "this & that", but obviously not enough.[/img]

vhs%2073.bmp

[SatStorm]

Deinterlacing gonna make it even worst you know...

You gonna need lots of filtering with that one

Try to play on virtualdub with the following filters:

ACOBW and NDF
color Mill
Median Filter
neatvideo
MSU Color Enchansment or MSU Smart Brightness or MSU Old Color Restoration
MSU Smart Sharpen
Exorcist
Autolevels

[jagabo]

Why are those screen caps ~480x384? Shouldn't they be 720x576 from a PAL cap? I can't tell much about interlacing from those caps but you have terrible time base problems. Is this the first generation on video tape? If so, a good SVHS deck with a line time base correcter will fix a lot of the problems. A full frame TBC may be necessary too.

[jman98]

I have some old VHS tapes from 1973, they were shot in NTSC

This is not accurate. Betamax was first sold to consumers in 1975. VHS wasn't available until 1976.

[pirej]

Thanks SatStorm, ill try some ''playing''

Jagabo, its captured in 720x576 pal- interlaced, but i had to put the wiev to 60% in virtualdub so that i can see the input and the separated fields at the same time. And its not 1 , but 3 generation of video tape.... i gues.
First its taped on some old video camera with some other type of tape, then.. fiew years later its transfered to VHS, and around 10 years ago.. again transfered/converted to PAL VHS.
So.. i cant get the original source, the crap i got.. is all i have.
I see the time base problem, but as i know.. TBC works only for 1 generation of video, or not?

[jagabo]

its not 1 , but 3 generation of video tape.... i gues.
First its taped on some old video camera with some other type of tape, then.. fiew years later its transfered to VHS, and around 10 years ago.. again transfered/converted to PAL VHS.
So.. i cant get the original source, the crap i got.. is all i have.
I see the time base problem, but as i know.. TBC works only for 1 generation of video, or not?

You are right, you won't be able to fix 3 generations of time base errors.

If you are making a DVD you shouldn't need to deinterlace. DVD and all modern televisions fully supports interlaced video. You just have to make sure the video is properly interlaced to start with (ie, it hasn't been improperly resized, blended, or whatever), that you treat the video properly during your processing, and that you maintain the correct field order flags thoughout.

[lordsmurf]

I have to disagree. I have good experience removing multi-generational errors, including unstable timebase, via hardware. But this needs to be done in higher-end hardware, it cannot be done in software.

Do NOT deinterlace.

If you want to know more, PM me.

[Video Head]

From the year you are quoting it is probably a telecined film. Depending upon the film type, age and handling, as well as the quality of the telecine equipment used, the problem may be with the original source. Amazing things can be done with digital processing and if this is valuable footage the effort and expense could be well worth the final result.

[pirej]

Well.. it is a valuable video for me becouse my grand, grand mother and e.t.c. are filmed in the video, and its taken place before i was born (im born 1975)
This day's im looking for a better VCR to try capture with, and i hope it will make diference, and im doing some experiments with virtualdub and avisynth to try to inprove the video, but..
I was wondering.. is there any way that i could (first) clean JUST the lower field of the video, and don't end up with deinterlaced video????
Im asking this becouse my eyes ''hurt'' from the noice and all the junk that is mainly present in the lower field.
Any ideas??
Is this posiblle, or is it just me dreaming?? ahhaha

[jagabo]

VirtualDub -> Deinterlace -> Discard Field + Keep Top Field.

[dphirschler]

If you care about your video, PM lordsmurf.


Darryl

[pirej]

Jagabo, doing that il get deinterlaced video(with only top field).. right?
I would do that if i wanted to deinterlace, but i want to watch it on TV, so i nead it interlaced.
Darry, i care about the video, but... as Lordsmurf said, "But this needs to be done in higher-end hardware, it cannot be done in software".
So, i dont have that kind od equipment, and the money to pay someone who has it, and im stuck in the corner with a headake
Anyway, thans to all of you who tryed to help me.

p.s. this will ider make me invent some new filter for Vdub, or it will make me throw the tapes as far as i can

[jagabo]

Jagabo, doing that il get deinterlaced video(with only top field).. right?

Sorry, I misread your question.

I would do that if i wanted to deinterlace, but i want to watch it on TV, so i nead it interlaced.

It doesn't need to be interlaced to watch on TV. But you're losing half the picture and temporal resolution if you deinterlace.

In AviSynth you could split the frames into two fields, filter each independently, then weave them back together.

WhatEverSource("filename.ext")
SeparateFields()
f1=SelectEven().FiltersHere()
f2=SelectOdd().DifferentFiltersHere()
Interleave(f1,f2)
Weave()

[pirej]

Thanks jagabo, sounds interesting, ill try it this days.
Now im going to sleepp...
Thanks again.

[jagabo]

If you're not comfortable filtering in AviSynth you can discard fields in VirtualDub and filter the fields separately, creating two AVI files. Then use a simple AviSynth sctipt to weave them back together for the final encoding:

f1=AviSource("f1.avi")
f2=AviSource("f2.avi")
Interleave(f1,f2)
Weave()

[Video Head]

Jagabo, doing that il get deinterlaced video(with only top field).. right?
I would do that if i wanted to deinterlace, but i want to watch it on TV, so i nead it interlaced.
Darry, i care about the video, but... as Lordsmurf said, "But this needs to be done in higher-end hardware, it cannot be done in software".
So, i dont have that kind od equipment, and the money to pay someone who has it, and im stuck in the corner with a headake
Anyway, thans to all of you who tryed to help me.

p.s. this will ider make me invent some new filter for Vdub, or it will make me throw the tapes as far as i can

Well, well, well...three holes in the the ground! If a yawl (or a sloop) can't figger it out then let the PRO's have a GO! The headache is your own ploblem, maytee!

[pirej]

I'm (probably) glad that i dont know what "yawl (or a sloop)" means..
I found some "TBC" script for avisynth, but i cant find info that anyone has tryed it, and is it efective or what..
Has somebody try it, test it??
http://code.google.com/p/avisynthrestoration/wiki/TBC

Il try it (if i know how), and if have any results il share them here.

Can someone please adapt the script to my video type/source in the TBC script???
Somehow i dont get it , i tryed some adaptations that i think are nessesary but nothing

Wnen i load it in AVsP, i get this error..
" Resize: YV12 width must be multiple of 4,
(tbcv01.avs, line 142) (tbcv01.avs, line 88 ) "

And when i load my Avisource, i get
"avisource does not have a named argument ''cpu'' ''

I captured with virtualdub in MJEPG, PAL 720x576 interlaced, so i gues its yv12 ..??

[jagabo]

I took a quick look but all I got was a mostly black frame out of the TBC() function. I might play more with it later.

[lordsmurf]

Software TBC is wishful thinking.

[Gavino]

Wnen i load it in AVsP, i get this error..
" Resize: YV12 width must be multiple of 4,
(tbcv01.avs, line 142) (tbcv01.avs, line 88 ) "

This is a limitation in Avisynth 2.57. You need to install the latest version 2.58 of Avisynth.

And when i load my Avisource, i get
"avisource does not have a named argument ''cpu'' ''

Just what it says, there is no 'cpu' argument (unlike MPEG2Source).
Use AviSource("yoursource.avi")

[2Bdecided]

So what you have might be (probably) 8mm film > NTSC VHS > PAL VHS.

Which opens up some useful possibilities - if it came from film, especially slow framerate home movie film, there might be more of the original left after all that conversion than would have been the case if you started with 60i video.

You need to post a video sample (MJPEG will be fine), not a single bmp, for people to look at it properly and give useful advice.

Use something like mediafire.com to upload the file.

Cheers,
David.

[pirej]

Yes 2Bdecided, you are right, its "(probably) 8mm film > NTSC VHS > PAL VHS"
I have uploaded 25 frames sample, take a look.
http://www.mediafire.com/?m0wdmmlv4t3

[jagabo]

The video is in such poor shape that restoring the original film frames will be tough. Some better hardware is needed to get cleaner caps.

Simple bob deinterlace 25i to 50p, 18 unique frames, hand picked:

xvid18.avi

[victoriabears]

oh dear, if that lines across the picture problem is not the tracking on the vcr you are using, wow, glad I have no such problems.

What are the chances of getting the original footage?

[2Bdecided]

You need to capture with the correct levels - the whites and brighter colours are completely blown out - you need a proc amp before the capture (in the analogue domain), or a capture device that lets you set/tweak levels as it captures.

TBC would be very useful too.


It's a mess, and it's always going to look a mess, but with a TBC, the correct levels, and then some software noise and vignetting removal, it will look quite a bit better.

Cheers,
David.

[SatStorm]

Actually it won't... Sorry.

Rent a High End VCR, a TBC and a High End DVD Recorder and use them for your task.
Later use your digital copy for experiments. Don't expect much.

[2Bdecided]

Actually it won't... Sorry.

Did you download the sample? Did you see how wrong the levels are in the current capture.

The source is garbage, but there's no point clipping 25%+ of the image by using the wrong levels too!

Rent a High End VCR, a TBC and a High End DVD Recorder and use them for your task.
Later use your digital copy for experiments. Don't expect much.

Nothing there to correct the levels before capture. So potentially the same useless results. Plus a "High End DVD recorder" is a daft was of capturing if you intend to do post processing. Capture to DV (at least) or lossless.

Cheers,
David.

[pirej]

I dont think that corecting levels before capture is a big problem to do it, but the TBC...
I'm still looking for a good VCR with integrated TBC function, and this days im expecting to get 2-3 VCR's to do some testing.
I tryed dejitter, descratch, vhs sync restore, despot..., but only despot actualy inproved the picture, it kind of ''erases'' the horisontal lines, and blends them with the background, so they are less visible.
BUT.. that's not that, becouse its only 10-20 % efective in removing(masking) the jitter..
I tryed this despot settings:
DeSpot(interlaced=true,
p1=30,p2=12,pwidth=720,pheight=576,mthres=20,merod e=33,\
sign=0,show=0,seg=0,color=true,motpn=true)
and

despot(interlaced=true, ranked=true, p1=100, p2=60, mthres=80, show=0, fitluma=true, seg=0, color=true, tsmooth=8 )

Any sugestions for diferent settings???

[pirej]

Hi again, i have been playing around with photoshop and.. tryed to try to fix couple of frames of my video.
So, i exported some 27 frames as image sequence, and i did a ''fast'' editing in photoshop, just to see if its posible to fix the horizontal jittering that way..
Actualy all i did is cloning from field to field (nothing else) for about 1 hour, and here is the result.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/m5yxnkyxz5m/before.avi
http://www.mediafire.com/file/tomnytryhxm/afther.avi

[jagabo]

That's a definite improvement but it sure is tedious!

As 2Bdecided mentioned, if you can capture again you might try adjusting the brightness and contrast settings to get the blacks blacker and to keep the whites from washing out.