Best lcd monitor for video restoration

[sanlyn]

I am not sure what kind of capture cards you are talking here, HD capture cards maybe?

I capture here 16:9 anamorph video with my old Hauppauge PVR 150 card and the software which use also has no support for 16:9.
But as long the card captures the complete image it is no problem, you can set the desired aspect ratio afterwards with any decent editing program.

Personally i have mixed feelings using widescreen monitors on the PC.

I'm using ATI AIW 7500 and 9600XT. 90% of the captures are from 4:3 sources, and 99% are directly into AVI via VirtualDub. I tried Hauppauge a while back, but the ATI's have given me no problems whatever. I have no patience with the poor performance of today's HiDef/LoQuality capture cards. I use no hidef sources except from cable, directly to DVD recorders. With the time and effort required to clean up old SD material, there's just not enough of me left to take on more.

[buckethead]

sanlyn :

I purchased an EyeOne Display 2 and calibrated my lcd display. I'm used to seeing my wallpaper look a certain way and my immediate response was NO, this is WAY too bright.

Okay, lets import a video clip and adjust brightness, contrast, gamma, chroma and hue strictly by what's on the lcd display with no fudging, cheating or compensating.

First impression in Tmpgenc 4.0 : this capture looks way too bright. Do baseline corrections.

On to virtualdub and colormill. Now things are starting to look better.

Burn to dvd using Tmpgenc 3.0.

Play dvd on 35 inch crt : stunning, beautiful and unbelievable. This will make my restoration work much easier. Thanks again for all the help ...

P.S. : I also learned the importance of raising the height of the lcd display, making sure to keep it at eye level. The EyeOne sensor calibrates the output at a 90 degree viewing angle which the viewer must maintain to replicate the accuracy.

[Cingular]

No one has mentioned Eizo monitors, what about the Eizo color edge series CG243W. These are "graphic quality" LCD monitors and presumably as good or better than any crt.


http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cg243w/index.html


I have never tried one but my understanding is that they would work well for video or photography? Any thoughts?

[edDV]

No one has mentioned Eizo monitors, what about the Eizo color edge series CG243W. These are "graphic quality" LCD monitors and presumably as good or better than any crt.


http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cg243w/index.html


I have never tried one but my understanding is that they would work well for video or photography? Any thoughts?

Can you turn off all auto correction? Can it be properly calibrated to pro video standard?

[Cingular]

"Can you turn off all auto correction? Can it be properly calibrated to pro video standard? "

These Eizo color edge monitors have USB ports that work in conjunction with something along the lines of a Greytag/xright colormeter.

These monitors have a lot more adjustments than "normal" monitors. To my understanding it does not do a "auto correction" but has separate profiles where you can store different preferred monitor settings.

"Can it be properly calibrated to pro video standard? " In terms of photography ABSOLUTELY, I am however, much less familiar with video. In terms of photography the Eizo "Color" Edge series is certainly among the better or "best" LCD monitors.

[edDV]

The whole idea of an editing monitor is to fix to a calibration so it displays your awful test video in all its awfulness. You don't want the monitor to attempt to improve the input video. That is your job.

A home TV does just the opposite. It tries to make awful video look acceptable.

[Cingular]

The Eizo monitors when using the "eye one" type of hardware calibration adjust the monitor so that the colors you are seeing are true and not distorted by the monitors incorrect settings, so that your green is green red is red, blue is blue. The calibration allows you to see if the colors in your film are incorrect. Photoshop users use this type of Eizo monitor to check and adjust color for printing photos. Combined with hardware calibration on your photo printer the Eizo or Lacie type monitors are supposed to let you judge for critical color work. Calibration allows you to see the photo/film/video more like it R E A L L Y appears on the film. I thought that was the whole point of critical color work--the monitor shows you exactly what is on the film without distorting the colors.



"The whole idea of an editing monitor is to fix to a calibration so it displays your awful test video in all its awfulness. You don't want the monitor to attempt to improve the input video. That is your job. "

I thought that the whole idea of a Eizo or Lacie type monitor was to show the flaws in the digital or analog to digital image? I have a Lacie CRT monitor and it is worlds better than a "general generic" CRT monitor. My Lacie Electron Blue IV, is calibrated and it lets me see light and dark areas on the film along with what looks to me, a significantly better color reference than a normal television set. If you are not using the Lacie or Eizo monitor, what monitor are you supposed to use for critical color work in Premiere and Photoshop? After calibration the better quality Lacie monitor does to my eyes show a better more true representation.

[edDV]

edDV wrote:
"The whole idea of an editing monitor is to fix to a calibration so it displays your awful test video in all its awfulness. You don't want the monitor to attempt to improve the input video. That is your job. "

I thought that the whole idea of a Eizo or Lacie type monitor was to show the flaws in the digital or analog to digital image? I have a Lacie CRT monitor and it is worlds better than a "general generic" CRT monitor. My Lacie Electron Blue IV, is calibrated and it lets me see light and dark areas on the film along with what looks to me, a significantly better color reference than a normal television set. If you are not using the Lacie or Eizo monitor, what monitor are you supposed to use for critical color work in Premiere and Photoshop? After calibration the better quality Lacie monitor does to my eyes show a better more true representation.

There are two traditions for monitor calibration, Film/TV broadcast (SMPTE/EBU) and prepress.

SMPTE/EBU standards are an independent reference that everyone in the chain from camera technician to home couch potato are supposed adjust to. The idea is a film made in the fifties can be displayed on a modern flat panel TV with reasonable color accuracy if the TV manufacturer and user adjust the TV to SMPTE/EBU standards.

Prepress color management tradition starts with a specification for a particular printer or printing press and then everything in the production chain is adjusted for WYSIWUG (what you see is what you get) on that particular printer. Each printer required a separate monitor calibration. In recent years, there have been efforts (ICM, etc.) to have a set of intermediate color standards that producers and printers try to match to put some predictability into the process independent of any particular printer.

Still, the idea you can achieve a single computer monitor calibration for video and printing remains a distant goal.

[edDV]

Narrowing down on the video side, manufacturers of broadcast monitors, TV sets and computer monitors each have different goals that are "anti-standard".

Broadcast monitors (e.g. Marshall, Ikegami or Sony) are designed to exactly follow guiding SMPTE/EBU standards. Ideally video on monitors from any and all manufacturers should look the same. They compete on accuracy and stability with age. Broadcast monitors usually operate in low ambient light.

TV manufacturers know that a properly adjusted TV will never sell in your brightly lit "Buy Mart", so they alter the picture to "look best" in a store next to the competition. There is a race to excessive contrast, over saturated colors and crushed blacks. TV sets are also expected to auto optimize noisy or level/color shifted video. Often you can't turn off the auto correction circuits.

Computer monitors are generally optimized to look good for bright documents in bright office lighting. They usually are poor for subtle grays in low light. It is very difficult to adjust computer monitors for full black.

[Cingular]

"Still, the idea you can achieve a single computer monitor calibration for video and printing remains a distant goal."

Printing calibration is a separate function entirely from monitor calibration.


"Computer monitors are generally optimized to look good for bright documents in bright office lighting. They usually are poor for subtle grays in low light. It is very difficult to adjust computer monitors for full black."

I find it hard to believe that this monitor:

http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cg243w/index.html

an Eizo "ColorEdge CG243W" is '"optimized" to look good for bright documents in bright office lighting.'

Did you read the brochure for this monitor?

http://www.eizo.com/data/downloads/brochures/pdf/ColorEdge_0908.pdf

I come from a photography background NOT video, since this Eizo ColorEdge monitor is a KNOWN decent monitor for STILL PHOTOGRAPHY, what issues if any, does it present for video?

The Coloredge monitors advertises its use for graphics or Video.

edDv, it sounds like you have an extensive background in video, but as time progresses, the line between video and still photography gets fuzzier.

These Eizo ColorEdge monitors are the best current product monitors that I know of for "Critical Color Work."

Take a look over at www.photo.net. There is a LOT of useful information there but it all involves STILL PHOTOGRAPHY.

I am out of my bounds, I have spent little time with video. I am just presenting this information for review and evaluation.

edDV, have you actually used a Eizo Color Edge monitor for photo or video work?

edDV, have you ever used an " i1Display 2" or any other www.xrite.com products?

edDV, Do you know of another specific monitor that is better than the Eizo Color Edge? If so please be more specific as to the brand, model, make and current availability? A website or URL would be best.

Thanks for your help.

[edDV]

I haven't used that particular monitor. My comments were general.

I was trying to point out the differences in "calibration" philosophy. Also video monitors and TV sets use different gamma and assumptions for room lighting. Prepress is moving to standardized color profiles and the two worlds will merge over time. Just don't assume they are the same thing.

In theory any monitor can be calibrated to produce a reference picture. In practice they aren't there yet. Monitor designs are targeted to application segements.

[sdsumike619]

Lordsmurf, which 22" Acer do you have? I have the X223W

[sanlyn]

A suggested monitor, still auditioning:

Two days ago I picked up a new LG IPS266V 21.5" LED PC monitor. This thing sells for around $200 give or take a few bucks at various shops. That's about half the price that similar Dell, NEC, etc., now sell for. I'm not a big fan of anything from LG. Never was. But an IPS panel is desirable for its better-than-usual color accuracy (as far as LCD's go, anyway) and smoother gamma curve. One thing I can say for LG's credit: their HDTV's and monitors have more image adjustments than most such products. In particular, their HDTV's have a CMS (Color Management System) that allows you to fine tune an image to a rather precise level. Understand, though, that while such image controls give results superior to factory settings and the usual imperfections in production runs, they still won't attain the levels of precision of costly professional setups. Still, those adjustments are better than primitive Tint and Saturation controls.

I spent all day calibrating the IPS226 for 2 monitors, with my X-rite software and EyeOne D2 colorimeter. Although the results look pretty good so far, calibration was tricky. The set has RGB controls that aren't easy to work with. The controls have adjustment numbers from 0 to 100, default at 50. Unfortunately the Blue control wouldn't nudge below 42 or above 56. All the controls work in a clunky, jerky manner: move Red up or down a couple of points, and things move rather slowly. Then one more click, and Red does a hard snap up or down several levels, with Blue and Green snapping into entirely different positions. I realize the colors interact this way on many video devices because the processors are trying to maintain a certain brightness/gamma level. But in this case the snap-to's are more aggressive than I've usually seen.

I noted that the final RGB values for a decent calibration weren't very far from out-of-the-box defaults. This doesn't mean that the default colors were all that great (they start out too red, as most monitors do, but most monitors I've seen are even worse with red). My EyeOne told me that default contrast was set perfectly at the level desired by Xrite's calibration, but brightness had to be turned down from 80 to 30. Like most monitors and TV's, the LG default was set a few hundred percentage points brighter than "normal" video should be. But out of the box the defaults looked better than most LCD's I've tried. White spreadsheets and other bright areas didn't have the annoying glare I see most of the time. Once calibrated, the LG color and contrast levels look cleaner and smoother than I see on the usual TFT screen.

Alas, all isn't perfect. Every LG product is apparently designed with at least one major defect on board. This one has a couple. The first set I brought home had a very visible backlight (or edgelight) bleed in the upper right corner, about the size of a small orange, along with the usual but less visible edge leaks you see on all LED's. I returned that set immediately, brought home another, plugged it and turned it on. Fine: just the usual LED edge leaks. But the fog in the upper right had been replaced with the same fog on the lower left. This set had a bonus, though, in the form of a smaller thumb-sized blob in the lower right. So I guess there's no escaping this, for I see tests of other LED's that have the same screen uniformity problems.

The ads say the LG IPS226 has a contrast ratio in the multi-millions-to-one range. You can believe that if you want (it's all hype. Nobody has such a ratio, and your eyes couldn't stand it if they did). My viewing experience with calibrated monitors tells me the ratio here is somewhere around 750:1 to maybe 1000:1, which is quite respectable. Any higher, and it would be even more difficult to match your test video on your PC to what you'll see on your TV. If you're using your PC monitor strictly for PC and not to develop videos for a TV, you'd likely prefer more bright-end punch. If so, a decent IPS monitor likely isn't what you want.

After calibration I'm using a test pattern generator from Calman Software to throw up 10-step and 22-step gray ramps, full screen at 1920x1080. Thankfully, they look uniformly smooth and almost perfectly gray from black to midtones to RGB 255. Every panel is quite distinct, from darkest to lightest. The gray is just the slightest bit warmish, likely from the fact that Xrite was unable to set Blue as high as it liked, but the final graphs show less than a 2 percent rise of Red and Green over Blue in the grayscale curve. In the gray ramp I see no obvious tint in of any of the panels -- that's very good performance.

Angle of View: LG specifies a horizontal viewing angle of something like 170-plus degrees. Listen, people, I think you know what a near-180 degree angle looks like. The figure implies that the 170-plus angle of view means nearly 90 degrees each side of center. No. more like 45 degrees on each side -- still far wider than the usual TFT, whose angle is usually no more 15 or 20 degrees off center. The vertical doesn't fare nearly as well: maybe 10 degreesw up or down, so keep your head centered. Still, this is better than TFT's. The desktop color on my monitor is set at a solid RGB 32 (near black), and it looks nice and smooth, a very clean dark gray -- edgelight bleed excepted. It doesn't have that dense, almost gritty dark gray that displayed on my TFT screens.

Another problem. Hooking this set to 3 monitors with three different graphics cards, you'll see mild halo and some ghosting to the left of contrasty objects, especially if that object is on a dark background. Another gift from "superior" LED technology (why do they keep shoving these obvious defects in our faces and calling them "improvements"?). In normal operations with graphics these defects are hard to see, but on my desktop they're rather obvious, even if mild. But, then, I saw the same thing on a pricey NEC similar to this one.

The IPS226 also has a six-color adjustment for saturation and hue of primaries and secondaries (those six colors are Red, Green, Blue primaries and Yellow, Cyan, and Magenta secondaries). This is a great feature in a consumer-grade PC monitor. I haven't tried them in detail yet, but so far my EyeOne probe tells me that the controls don't accomplish much. In giving them a try, though, I hooked up my probe to HCFR calibration software and measured primary and secondary panels on the IPS screen. HCFR showed that the closest color space CIE chart that the current settings match up to are not sRGB or SDTV Rec601, but HDTV Rec709. Blue and Red were spotted almost perfectly on the CIE chart for correct x,y placement (color purity), and Cyan and Magenta were fairly close to ideal. The color that was visibly outside and above its assigned corner was Green, along with Yellow (i.e., Yellow located up and to the right means yellow is too Green), though not by objectionable amounts. But I'm wondering why the 6-color controls had so little effect.

One unexpected benefit of this IPS screen: Often I can't do any graphics work on the machine I'm using at this moment, because it's in a room within sight of large uncurtained windows and southern sunlight (the wife hates curtains, which have to be cleaned and ironed. She's hung straw-like Roman shades, which do little to filter strong sunlight). For most of the day this corner is far too bright for graphics work. I've devised a portable cardboard "hood" that drapes over the monitor, though it isn't all that effective. Yet as I now type this post, the sun is out bright today but the screen doesn't look as washed out as usual in the bright glare.

Anyway, just a suggestion. If you're out for a new monitor, you might look at similar IPS models. This is the only one I could afford.