high quality mpeg-2 encoding

[deadrats]

ok people, here's the deal:

i'm currently looking for the highest quality dvd compliant mpeg-2 encoding possible, at a reasonable cost. i.e. using either freeware and/or open source apps or using sub-$100 encoding software.

my sources are typically 1080P and 720P, and they are usually encoded using h264 or vc1, very rarrely mpeg-2.

my current program of choice is the latest version of tmpg express and i use the following parameters:

video noise reduction filter enabled

color correction, simple setting, filter enabled

audio noise reduction filter enabled

volume adjustment filter enabled

picture resize, bicubic, filter enabled

motion search precision set to highest (with error correction)

DC precision set to 10

mpeg standard matrix

and i use a constant bitrate of 4000 kb/s with 128 kb/s ac3 audio

the results are very high quality mpeg-2's, i'm just wondering if it's possible to use an alternative that gives me similar results but faster encodes (because using these settings, even with cuda handling the filters and the decoding, encoding times are measured with an hour glass).

i was thinking maybe using an avisynth script with CCE basic, but i just wanted to get some feedback first and see if you guys had any ideas/suggestions.

thanks.

[themaster1]

4000kbps and you're happy? Strange.
I'm familiar with tmpgenc , though not the latest version and i would not use its video noise reduction filter but maybe they've improved it..

To get quality, encode in 2pass, maximum around 9000kbps.

[Gavino]

i was thinking maybe using an avisynth script with CCE basic, but i just wanted to get some feedback first and see if you guys had any ideas/suggestions.

You could take a look at HCEnc, which also works off an Avisynth script - it's free and high quality.

[manono]

Yeah, no question that HCEnc frameserved by an AviSynth script will do a better and faster job of it. And CCE basic is even faster, but I don't like to be limited by the 2 passes, which is all you get with the Basic version. CBR 4000? Are you kidding? I thought you said you were creating very high quality mpeg-2's? And 128 kb/s ac3 audio? You may be knowledgeable about the hardware side of things, but yours is hardly a recipe for high quality DVDs (unless the audio is mono maybe).

If you change over and aren't very familiar with how to use AviSynth, you might post the scripts you propose using. You should, for example, make the BT.709 to BT.601 colorimetry switch when reencoding Hi-Def to Standard-Def.

[deadrats]

Yeah, no question that HCEnc frameserved by an AviSynth script will do a better and faster job of it. And CCE basic is even faster, but I don't like to be limited by the 2 passes, which is all you get with the Basic version. CBR 4000? Are you kidding? I thought you said you were creating very high quality mpeg-2's? And 128 kb/s ac3 audio? You may be knowledgeable about the hardware side of things, but yours is hardly a recipe for high quality DVDs (unless the audio is mono maybe).

If you change over and aren't very familiar with how to use AviSynth, you might post the scripts you propose using. You should, for example, make the BT.709 to BT.601 colorimetry switch when reencoding Hi-Def to Standard-Def.

i know the 4000 kb/s bitrate seems ridiculously low for a dvd, but you need to remember that my source is extremely high quality 1080P, i mean the source is so clear that you can actually see the blemishes on the skin of the actors/actresses that lie underneath the makeup they use to try and cover up said blemishes, in fact the sources i'm using seem to have been shot using the sharpest possible focus that the director could specify without going overboard.

one thing people don't seem to realize is that you don't need that much bit rate if your source is of really high quality, unfortunately the vast majority of the sources people use are of less than optimum quality, even commercial movies are often shot with a softer focus (to try and cover up said blemishes) and at least to my eyes often times it looks like the color saturation is off as well.

as for avisynth, other some some really basic scripting i haven't used it all that extensively, so i haven't really decided on how i should go, i'm so spoiled by the easy nature of tmpg express' filters and now cyberlink's power director 8 built in video enhancing features that i've never had to get my hands dirty with manually enhancing video.

[manono]

i know the 4000 kb/s bitrate seems ridiculously low for a dvd...

Again, MPEG-2 encoding must not be one of your strengths. No one can object to an average bitrate of 4000 and no, 4000 doesn't seem ridiculously low for many sources. That's often as high as you can go for a DVD5. It's the CBR encoding that's ruining your encodes. Always use VBR for something like this. That way bits don't get wasted on static scenes and complex scenes aren't bitrate starved. I suppose you used it (giving you the benefit of the doubt here) because 2-passes takes so long when the source is Hi-Def (another reason not to use TMPGEnc, the slowest encoder on Earth), but if you care at all about quality use multi-pass VBR encoding. Either that or go for 1-pass quantizer encodes, but then you'll lose all control over the final file size.

[rallymax]

1: DVD spec has a max rate of 9000kbps for the video and audio combined so you need to take the PCM audio (48000khz*16bits*stereo=153.6kbps) off that number for the max video rate you can encode. You can pick up a little more room by turning the PCM into AC3. PCM and AC3 are the ONLY audio compression types allowed in the DVD standards. It's just "nice" that a lot of DVD players will play MPEG AUDIO.

I wouldn't go lower than 6000kbps for SD but that's my opinion only.

2: I agree with prior posts, you need to do VBR, preferably 2-pass regardless of how crisp the source is.

3: This blogger has come up with a dos batch file that drives MEncoder (from the MPlayer/MEncoder project). It will transcode your HD H.264 to SD MPEG2 for you very nicely. He did it to take MJPEG to MPEG2 but it would work the same with H.264 src. His script does HD -> HD so you'd have to modify some of the parameters to resize from HD to SD (btw NTSC is 720x480 and PAL is 720x568).

http://it-from-inside.blogspot.com/2008/11/how-to-convert-quicktime-mov-video.html (you can see my two posts at the bottom).

I found it hard to find (or compile) a MEncoder binary and eventually got it as a bi-product here:

http://mediacoder.sourceforge.net/

Mediacoder is a good suite and I've found it handy for things like re-containering MOV to AVI etc.

[manono]

1: DVD spec has a max rate of 9000kbps for the video and audio combined

It's 10080 kbps, also including subs and muxing overhead. With the (crummy) audio he's using, he can set a max bitrate for the video alone of 9800 kbps (assuming TMPGEnc honors the max bitrates set).

https://www.videohelp.com/dvd

...so you need to take the PCM audio (48000khz*16bits*stereo=153.6kbps) off that number for the max video rate you can encode.

He's using AC3 audio - very low quality AC3 audio.

[jagabo]

i know the 4000 kb/s bitrate seems ridiculously low for a dvd, but you need to remember that my source is extremely high quality 1080P, i mean the source is so clear...

MPEG compressibility is not determined by sharpness. If anything, sharper video requires higher bitrates because you must use a high frequency matrix. Noise and motion are the major factors that dictate how high a bitrate is need.

At 4000 kbps CBR if you examine any of your "high action" shots you'll see the video is full of macroblocks. Especially with TMPGEnc.

[rallymax]

manono - I thought that the 10080 was a burst max of <1second and that 9Mbps was the sustained max rate.

[SatStorm]

1: DVD spec has a max rate of 9000kbps for the video and audio combined so you need to take the PCM audio (48000khz*16bits*stereo=153.6kbps) off that number for the max video rate you can encode. You can pick up a little more room by turning the PCM into AC3. PCM and AC3 are the ONLY audio compression types allowed in the DVD standards. It's just "nice" that a lot of DVD players will play MPEG AUDIO.

Not true.
The region 2 DVD specifics support officially musicam.

[manono]

manono - I thought that the 10080 was a burst max of <1second and that 9Mbps was the sustained max rate.

You thought wrong, although I don't think I'd test it out by making a video with CBR 9800 bitrate. There are players, I'm sure, that would choke on it. In any event, I almost always set the max bitrate for my reencoded DVDs at 9500, during complex scenes it'll push against that max for many seconds, and I've never had a problem. If it'll author using a good authoring program (Muxman, for example), then it's within spec.

[jagabo]

musicam

I never heard that term before. I guess you mean MPEG 1, Layer 2 audio.
http://www.chiariglione.org/MPEG/faq/mp1-aud/mp1-aud.htm#16

[El Heggunte]

manono wrote:

TMPGEnc, the slowest encoder on Earth

bbmpeg is even slower than TMPGEnc.

[autodidact]

SatStorm wrote:
musicam

I never heard that term before. I guess you mean MPEG 1, Layer 2 audio.
http://www.chiariglione.org/MPEG/faq/mp1-aud/mp1-aud.htm#16

If I remember correctly MUSICAM is one of the psychoacoustic models used in MPEG 1, Layer 2 audio.

[manono]

manono wrote:

TMPGEnc, the slowest encoder on Earth

bbmpeg is even slower than TMPGEnc.

Hehe, you're right. But does anyone still use it? Except for Bjs?

[SatStorm]

Musicam is the term used to describe the mpeg1 layer 2 audio, as it is still used on VCD/CVD/SVCDs, Region2 DVDs and the DVB broadcasts.

[deadrats]

thanks to all for your feedback, after much consideration i decided to simply go with blu-ray compatible h264/ac3 720x480 muxed in a m2ts container, this way i can take advantage of gpu accelerated encoders and the results will be playable and compatible with future hardware players.

thanks again for the help.

[lordsmurf]

There's a new MPEG-2 encoder for VirtualDub, but I forget the name of it right now. I can't find my bookmark. It look promising, and was under $50.

[jagabo]

YMPEG?

[poisondeathray]

^ any reviews on it ? How does it stack up with the usual suspects?

[jagabo]

I never used YMPEG but it's not new. It's been around for years.

YMPEG evaluation version never expires. It only puts a small YMPEG logo on encoded outfile file.

[lordsmurf]

No, not YMPEG. I could have sworn it was called GPEG, but I can't find it anymore. It was new, from December 2008.

[jagabo]

In theory, one could use ffmpeg to encode MPEG 2 in an AVI file, then remux from AVI to MPG.

[rallymax]

In theory, one could use ffmpeg to encode MPEG 2 in an AVI file, then remux from AVI to MPG.

Just curious... Why are you saying that? Is ffmpeg encode faster?
I like your thinking outside of the box!

[jagabo]

In theory, one could use ffmpeg to encode MPEG 2 in an AVI file, then remux from AVI to MPG.

Just curious... Why are you saying that?

Smurf brought up MPEG 2 encoders for VirtualDub. I was just adding another possibility. I don't know how good/bad or fast/slow ffdshow's MPEG encoder is.

[deadrats]

There's a new MPEG-2 encoder for VirtualDub, but I forget the name of it right now. I can't find my bookmark. It look promising, and was under $50.

this is what you're referring to:

http://www.gputech.com/gpeg2/

[lordsmurf]

That's it. Try it at http://gputech.com/gpeg2/Download/dl.php

[kazyn]

HC (Hank's Encoder) and CCE (Cinema Craft Encoder). These are the highest quality mpeg2 encoders by far. What are your 1080P and 720P sources from? I would never use filters like denoisers, etc unless absolutely necessary. The only thing I've used on 1080P and 720P sources are degrainers. When going from 1080P->480P your just losing detail, ie is what you were describing seeing blemishes behind there makeup. So like mentioned use VBR, 2Pass always especially if your trying to achieve a desired file size. A little more information will help. And I can you a more detailed response. I wouldn't agree with many people here saying 4000kb isn't good for very many sources, I would say it's good for almost all. Why sacrifice time vs quality that makes no sense to me (If you decided to use H264, use x264 for christ sakes and learn them encoder options).

[PuzZLeR]

I've actually gotten some great encodes from CCE at 4000kbps or less, but they were low complexity video clips - you won't get such results for all. If you really want to flirt with bitrates that low you are better off with H.264. However, if you want a BD profile that works well with SD, good luck with x264 - issues with interlacing, pulldown, etc. I've spent way too much time testing this only to go back to MPEG-2 for BD playback at SD.

... but if you care at all about quality use multi-pass VBR encoding. Either that or go for 1-pass quantizer encodes, but then you'll lose all control over the final file size.

I'm assuming you're using CCE? I agree with VBR. Using 1-pass Q does give very good results too, but I've noticed, with my eyes at least, plugging that same exact resulting bitrate you got from Q into a VBR encode afterwards and, with maybe 3 passes or so, re-encoding that same source gives better results on the more complex scenes.

I don't find CCE's Q as good a scheme as similarly with DivX, Xvid or x264 which do use one pass very effectively. (Or maybe it's an MPEG-2 thing in general, don't know.)

If you're using certain Q-specific settings for CCE that achieve results just as good as VBR (at similar bitrate) I'd love to know. I love one-pass and don't care for the no-control final bitrate if the results are optimal to the quality I ask for.