Use After Effects and Vegas together, or use Premiere instead of Vegas?

[Morten]

Hi there.

I am working on a project in Sony Vegas pro 9, which I found comfortable to use. The videos I use in my project are MPEG2-files from several dvd's. I then saw some videos with very nice effects on youtube, and the "videomaker" used Adobe Premiere Pro and Adobe After Effects. I then thought that I would try After Effects out, and it seems like a great piece of software. I saw some tutorials to see what After Effects can do, and with some of it I thought: "I am pretty sure that Vegas can do this too." But it seems that AE is easier to work with than Vegas, when making effects that can be done in Vegas too?

Also, as far as I can see the masking tool in AE is better than the one in vegas, because of the Rotobezier option. Is this true or is there something about Vegas that I don't know?

Anyway, this is not my biggest concern at the moment. I am interested in learning how to use AE, but then my problem comes. Is it easier to shift to Premiere Pro instead of using Vegas, since Premiere can interact with AE? Or is there a good way to use Vegas and AE together? I tried to render some of my files in vegas, then import into AE, render again, import to Vegas, and then render the final time. But as expected, I got some quality loss. So how can I do this without losing quality? Or is it just better to use Premiere instead of Vegas?

I read somewhere that MPEG is not ideal for editing, for some reason I don't know, and that AVI should be the best. (I can't import MPEG into AE anyway...). If this is true, how can I import my dvd's into my harddrive in AVI, in superb quality?

Whew.....that was a lot of questions I really hope that someone can help me, cause I have searched on the internet A LOT! But unfortunately, I did not found exactly the answers I need.

[poisondeathray]

You can render a lossless compressed intermediate (e.g. lagarith, huffyuv, or even a .png sequence) with no quality loss (but lots of HD space required) from AE to import as an asset into Vegas. Often you want to preserve alpha channel effects from AE exports for transparency, so you would use RGB+A formats (huffyuv has one, or use the QT animation codec). Note you have to enable this separately in vegas for the asset (you'll learn tips & tricks as you go along)

If you're comfortable with vegas, you can use AE+Vegas fine. A lot of people do this, and I sometimes still do. Don't feel that you have to spend a lot of cash just to buy Premiere.

There is better integration with AE+Photoshop+Premiere , but you are not losing anything major by using Vegas. Masking options, blend options and track matting effects are better in Premiere, but almost everything can still be done in Vegas with a little work. If there is some very specific editing/effect, you'd better describe it or show an example and I'll try to tell you if Vegas is capable of doing it.

AVI is just a container, it's what format inside that counts. MPEG isn't ideal for editing, but if that's your original source (it is for DVD), that's what you should be using. Both Premiere and Vegas will handle MPEG2 fine.
You should always use the original source for best quality (a lossless intermediate will give you identical quality, but if there is no need, why waste the time/HD space?)

[fitch.j]

Comparing After Effects to Vegas isnt what you should be doing. After Effects is so much more powerful for composoting, and sure a couple of things you may have seen done in AE may be doable in Vegas, but these will only be very simply things in AE. Your thoughts of "I am pretty sure that Vegas can do this too" are going to be very wrong unless you never get into anything of even medium complexity in After Effects.

As for workflow, its totally upto you. If you've got the HDD Space to work with lossless intermediates or even uncompressed footage (and your computer can handle it) then thats the way to go. You can then use these in whatever NLE you like, and it wont make any difference. The reason Premiere is such a good option is due its dynamic link it offers, and like stated it intergrates so well with Photoshop as well. (Also Encore if DvD is your final destination for the videos). Also you should always be working with the source video as much as possible.

Just out of interest what After Effects are you using? There are slight differences between them, and how they intergrate with Premiere / how they can export.

[Morten]

Thank you so much for the replies. I really appreciate it

AVI is just a container, it's what format inside that counts. MPEG isn't ideal for editing, but if that's your original source (it is for DVD), that's what you should be using. Both Premiere and Vegas will handle MPEG2 fine.

You say that Premiere can handle MPEG2. Well, I downloaded a premiere pro trial, and it wont accept my mpeg2-files when I try to import. The same with AE, but I can import all my MPEG-files into Vegas. Therefore I assume that I have to import my dvd's in another format, such as AVI, with huffyuv? (But if MPEG isn't ideal for editing, I don't understand why you recommend that I should use it, just because my dvd is in MPEG2?)

Just out of interest what After Effects are you using? There are slight differences between them, and how they intergrate with Premiere / how they can export.

It is After Effects CS4. So I assume that it integrates fine with premiere?

[poisondeathray]

I recommended using the original source, which is MPEG2 from DVD. I have Vegas 8 , AE & Premiere CS4, and they import MPEG2 from DVD fine. I've done dozens of projects using some DVD clips and I assure you it works fine. Are you importing the vob or mpeg-ps ? If you are importing the vob, try vob2mpg to convert to mpeg-ps. It's also might be a limitation with the trialware (e.g. the trial doesn't allow native AVCHD editing either)

The reason why "MPEG2 isn't good for editing" is that it isn't all I-frame. It is based on a long GOP structure that requires cuts on I-frames only (not frame accurate), unless you have a smart rendering editor which re-encodes the P,B frames between I-frames in the GOP sequence. The lossless formats are all I-frame and frame accurate with any editor. But if you are re-encoding anyways, it doesn't matter what you use so this point it moot. Don't get hung up on it.

If you converted using huffyuv AVI, indeed there would be no quality loss. But there should be no need in this case, it's just a waste of time and space for IMporting. You might need to from EXport from AE (if you were using that as an asset for Vegas).

Dynamic link works fine with CS4 AE & Premiere, but only if you purchase one of the suites (I don't think it works if you have them individually)

If I were you, I would play with the workflow to see if you like the Premiere workflow. Some people "hate" Premiere's workflow, some "hate" Vegas' workflow. Play with the trial and see what works for you better.

[Morten]

I import into MPEG; no vob. I used some software called "DVD ripper wizard" since it was the only software I could find that didn't ruined the video quality completely. Is there a better way to import my dvd's?

Dynamic link works fine with CS4 AE & Premiere, but only if you purchase one of the suites (I don't think it works if you have them individually)

Well I first installed AE CS4, and the next day I installed a Premiere trial. Do I have to uninstall then and get this "suite install" to make them interact?

EDIT: When I try to use the dynamic link to AE, it says that I need Adobe Production Premium, so I guess I will have to get is as a suite.

[poisondeathray]

Yes, if they are retail, you must remove the copy protection first. Use DVDFab HD Decrypter (free) , DVDFab (the $ version) or AnyDVD ($) . Some older versions of Vegas and Premiere don't like vob's and you had to convert to MPEG-PS (.mpg) using vob2mpg

I'm just trying to simplify your workflow and save you time and HD space. You can import MPEG2 fine. If you want to convert to huffyuv, you won't lose any quality, but it won't "edit" any better for what you are trying to do because you are re-encoding anyway. In fact, on older systems it can be very sluggish on the timeline scrubbing, because of the high bitrates. MPEG2 navigates much smoother and is easier to edit in this regard.

EDIT: When I try to use the dynamic link to AE, it says that I need Adobe Production Premium, so I guess I will have to get is as a suite.

Yes that's what I said above, I think you need one of the suites

[Morten]

Well I did not know that copy protection could result in import problems since Vegas accepts it. But thanks for all your help. I will try DVDFab HD Decrypter right away. Hope it will import then

But what if I decide to use Premiere instead of Vegas? I guess it would be fine then if I just render my project in Vegas with the huffyuv codec, so I can continue the project in premiere without losing video quality?

[poisondeathray]

Well I did not know that copy protection could result in import problems since Vegas accepts it. But thanks for all your help. I will try DVDFab HD Decrypter right away. Hope it will import then

But what if I decide to use Premiere instead of Vegas? I guess it would be fine then if I just render my project with the huffyuv codec, so I can continue the project in premiere without losing video quality?

I'm not saying that is the reason why, it's a possible explanation why it won't import. The trial might also be limited

Yes, you can export from AE with huffyuv and import into any editor (vegas or premiere) without losing quality (you have to setup huffyuv to RGBA mode if you want to keep alpha channel intact, if not using alpha, use plain RGB default).

[edDV]

AE is usually used for short segments (one minute or less). I usually transfer segments as uncompressed YCbCr or RGB.

[Morten]

I tried DVDFAB but didn't work. I have decided to use Vegas with AE, and not Premiere with AE since I then have to buy the suite. But can someone help me with a detailed workflow? What I need to do is render my clip in Vegas, then import it into AE, then render in AE after making my effects, and then import it back to Vegas.
I tried to render in Vegas with both uncompressed AVI and huffyuv AVI, but when I import it into AE I can see that the video quality is much lower now. I have also tried to use a Frameserver plug-in, but the quality was also bad. Could it be some settings I have to change in either Vegas or AE?

[M Bruner]

Actually, once you complete and save your projects in After Effects, you can go to Premiere Pro and select File->Adobe Dynamic Link->Import After Effects Project and select your AE project. This brings the project onto Premier Pro like a video file, where you edit it on the timeline. Then the source video is only edited once even though it's been used by two applications.

[poisondeathray]

@M Bruner: He's using the trial, and doesn't have the suite installed, so dynamic link doesnt work for him

@Morten: I bet it's a setting you are using in Vegas. Make sure your project settings, clip info, render settings match. The debugmode frameserver should be 100% identical to what vegas is outputting, and of course lossless is....lossless. So this suggests to me a setting as the culprit. You will have to provide more info for us to diagnose this farther ie. what is "bad" about it, what settings you used , maybe even post a sample , etc...

[M Bruner]

@M Bruner: He's using the trial, and doesn't have the suite installed, so dynamic link doesnt work for him

Too bad. That little feature blows Vegas out of the water for me.

[zoobie]

Probably best to simply buy one of each editor.
I never thought much of vegas pro...pretty goofy editor...but the included codecs are better than most.

[guns1inger]

I have been using Avid's lossless HD format DNxHD to transfer between AE and Vegas. I have never enjoyed the Premiere experience, so even the lure of seamless integration between the two would not be enough to drag me back to Premiere's unstable arms.

Fixed typo - hard to type at the moment with screwed tendons in wrist

[fitch.j]

Check your RAM preview settings in after effects if you think your losing quality when moving to AE. A lot of people dont realise they've got it set to half resolution or something and to skip frames.

Also if your having issues with whats being rendered out of AE, make sure your using the render cue and not the Export option. The Export option is notorious for giving horrible results.

Codec support within the trial version is probably the reason behind you issues with importing MPEGS.

Ideally your workflow wants to be Source>AE>Editor>Final Product

Using a lossless intermediate to go from AE to your Editor should be fine and you wont notice any difference.

[Morten]

The clip I use here is from a cartoon. In the original clip, the lines are all smooth, but when I import the rendered clip from Vegas into AE, the lines are jagged.

My video settings are:
http://img190.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=mediapropertiesforclip.jpg

[poisondeathray]

Imageshack seems down, I cannot see your picture. You can post the jpg here as well

Was the export from vegas ok? Without seeing anything, I'm guessing you rendered interlaced, or messed up the render or project settings. Was the original DVD interlaced?

Post some screenshots , sample clips, and more information if you want help. There is not a lot to go by here to help you diagnose your problem. What do you mean by jaggies? Interlace lines? Bad deinterlace remenants?

EDIT: imageshack seems ok now. Your field order is mismatched. Your clip info is upper field first, your project & render settings are lower field first

[Morten]

I have uploaded the clip so you can see what I mean.

The first one is my first rendering (from Vegas):
http://yfrog.us/5a1uncompressedrenderfromz

The second one is the next rendering (from AE):
http://yfrog.us/5a2uncompressedrenderfromz

Both are uncompressed AVI, but if I use Huffyuv I will get the exact same results. (By the way. The "lines" that are running across the picture in the first rendering are not visible in my original clip. I have seen them before though, dependig on which dvd ripping software I have used. This must mean that the dvd's are interlaced, right?)

EDIT: imageshack seems ok now. Your field order is mismatched. Your clip info is upper field first, your project & render settings are lower field first

Would it be better to change it to progressive? 'Cause as far as I know this is better than interlaced.

Thanks again so much for helping

EDIT: I hope the videos are okay to watch. Fore some reason, the quality is not as good as on my computer. If necessary, I can try to upload the files on rapidshare or something.

[poisondeathray]

The 2nd clearly looks worse, and suggests a workflow error with AE, or maybe deinterlacing artifacts, or wrong field interpretation. It doesn't help much to upload to that yfrog site, because they process the video into a flash format (hard to problem solve because the errors might be introduced by them).

It's better to upload the original samples to a free hosting site e.g. mediafire.com, megaupload.com . If you could, upload a sample of the DVD, the vegas render , and AE render. You can cut a section from the DVD using DGIndex, and the AVI's using virtualdub using direct stream copy set for video & audio

Your choice of deinterlacing or not depends on your final format goal. Deinterlacing degrades the image and should be done in certain situations eg. if a website was your end goal. If your end goal was DVD, you would keep it interlaced. What is your goal?

Vegas is horrible for deinterlacing. Premiere/AE are even worse. Many people resort to external methods like avisynth.

[Morten]

I am uploading the two files again on mediafire right now. If you then still want to see something from the original dvd, I can try to cut the clip from it too

By the way, when I import the uncompressed AVI from Vegas into AE I got this message:


I don't get this message with the Huffyuv AVI, but no matter what I choose when this message appears, it doesn't change the final result. Could it be something with the alpha channel?

My goal is to put the video on the internet, so it is not that necessary to put it on a DVD too. It is most important that it can be watched on a computer, but in the future it would also be nice to put all my videos on a dvd.

[poisondeathray]

it has to do with compositing and edge effects when you use alpha channel you can just push ok

Looking at the video (TMNT?) it's likely telecined so you would ivtc it beforehand

[Morten]

The files are uploaded now. Hope theese are better

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=cfabcc7177a8cc2ae7c82ed4b8f0c380e04e75f6e8ebb871

[poisondeathray]

Need to look at the source too...

[Morten]

Can I use virtualdub to cut that clip out from the mpeg2-file? Or do I have to get the clip from the dvd again using the program you mentioned? (Since it is the mpeg2-file I use in Vegas, I assume that will be fine to cut the clip out from?)

[poisondeathray]

Nope, vdub only output's avi

Just use DGIndex, mark in/out section with the "[" and "]" , file=>save project and demux video. All you need to upload is a .m2v section (i.e. the video, not the audio)

Chances are, you just have to IVTC it in the settings and everything will be ok

i.e. (use ntsc dv preset 24p either widescreen or normal depending if the source is 16:9 or 4:3, for the project settings), this will bring it back to the actual 23.976fps progressive. Then render your lossless format as 23.976 progressive, and in AE, use NTSC DV 23.976 preset for your comp

[Morten]

I uploaded the .m2v-file in the same folder on mediafire

[poisondeathray]

Yep, just use the instructions above (IVTC). Some DVD's are actually interlaced, but this one isn't

For the project properties in vegas; NTSC DV 24p preset (the frame rate will say 23.976 IVTC film); and make sure your render settings match

[Morten]

I will try that right away then. Thanks

Just to make sure I actually understand some of all this..hehe...the "lines" that can be seen in the source video, isn't that because it is interlaced?