Sony Vegas 9.0, AVCHD/mds "ghosting" with Canon HG10 footage

[Woodserr]

Hello all,

Had a quick question concerning footage from my Canon Hg10. I've had "ghosting" in almost all of my clips, and believe it is due to my rendering, but possibly due to capture settings. Some of the footage is hand-held, some is with a tripod and moderate amounts of panning, nothing jerky though, and it doesn't seem appreciably better with the tripod. . just steadier footage with about the same amount of ghosting effect. I am currently recording in 24p mode almost always, and have been rending the raw footage in Vegas Pro 9.0 with the settings shown in the accompanying image.



This format seems to result in footage which is great quality at a reasonably small file size and wait time, except for the ghosting of course. Is this a result of improper render settings? Or should I try shooting in 60i? I have played around a bit with my render settings with no results thus far.

If 60i is my best bet, which values would I need under the rendering options?

Thanks for any tips!
-Woodserr

[edDV]

AVCHD is usually 1440x1080i at 29.97 fps top field first 17Mb/s or 1920x1080i at 29.97 fps top field first 24Mb/s.
Where is this 24fps progressive scan coming from?

[Woodserr]

Hmm, I think that was a setting recommended to me before (24 fps progressive. . or do you mean the footage?

Here is a picture of my resulting footage (after rendering)


^^^ Both images are from the same rendered clip, just a part of a second apart, just to demonstrate it isn't a constant effect, just common on both moving and inanimate subjects in the background.

The original footage doesn't appear to contain the ghosting effect, so it seems the problem lies with my render settings, although I am open to shooting in 60i if it would mean the whole render process would be simpler.

[poisondeathray]

This commonly occurs when your project settings don't match your actual footage or render settings (check to see if all 3 match)

Also, you might want to use "main" or "high" profile instead of "baseline" which is intended for low quality devices like ipod. Also , choose CABAC instead of CAVLC for entropy coding; you will get 10-20% better compression

Even if you intended this for youtube or other sites, you still want the highest quality possible, so when they re-encode, the quality lost is minimized.

[Woodserr]

Using what I (probably wrongly) gathered from your post, I changed to these settings:


and the resulting rendered video had no ghosting that I noticed, but a new and obvious problem (not sure what you would call this):



Thank for your quick reply by the way, edDV. . at least it prompted me to ascertain it was the rendering process not the raw footage which had the ghosting. I'd love to have all this figured out so I can start truly enjoying this new camera!

[poisondeathray]

Use mediainfo to determine what you have as the original specs (are you sure it's 24p)? ; it's not always accurate, but it's a starting point. If you really want to verify what it is, you have to examine it manually. If you don't know how to, upload a small sample to a free hosting site eg. mediafire

If the original is 24p, you don't want to export it interlaced! Which is what you are getting in the above screenshot, and the fields are mismatched. Many of the Canon's do have a 24p mode

[Woodserr]

Thanks for the quick reply and help poisondeathray!

I am downloading mediainfo now and will post the results momentarily.

How do I prevent it from exporting interlaced?

[Woodserr]

Media info from the video file which I took the last post's still from with the mismatched fields.



General
ID : 0
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Woodser\My Documents\From Canon Vixia\Raw clips\00081.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 13.6 MiB
Duration : 6s 976ms
Overall bit rate : 16.3 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 18.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Duration : 6s 906ms
Bit rate : 15.4 Mbps
Width : 1 440 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16/9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Resolution : 24 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.330
Stream size : 12.7 MiB (93%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 6s 976ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 256 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -67ms
Stream size : 218 KiB (2%)

[poisondeathray]

To be 100% sure, you have to examine the clip. I have a Canon HF11 that records progressive, and the content is progressive , but mediainfo reports as interlaced (it reads the header)

If you set the record mode to progressive, it probably is but to be sure I would check manually in a non deinterlacing player e.g. vdub or in avisynth

If you look at your screenshot above, it is rendering field order: upper field first so it's rendering interlaced

The blending is likely from the mismatch, you have 29.97, but rendered as 24fps from the screenshot

What is your end goal? If it's for some website you probably want progressive video

[Woodserr]

My end goal is to have all of my footage saved and viewable on my computer and available (in a common format, not mds) to edit to post to youtube and/or burn to dvd. Doesn't have to be perfect quality, but I'd love to get rid of this ghosting! It's ruining it

It seems that putting my render settings with "progressive" results in ghosting, and putting either upper field first OR lower field first results in the mismatched fields pictured above.

This was just observed from switching that one setting around 3 times just now.

I will download virtualdub now and see what it shows when I open the clip in it. . is it compatible with mds? Or should I convert to another format with the "progressive" setting and open that to watch?

[poisondeathray]

What were your project settings?

vdub probably won't open it natively without the directshow plugin or avisynth. You probably need haali media splitter + ffdshow with h.264 decoding enabled

You should archive it in it's original format for future projects. You should be able to watch it directly in players such as MPC-HC, KMplayer, VLC, SMPlayer etc... each have deinterlacing options

[Woodserr]

I have to apologize for my lack of knowledge on this subject. . .

What are my project settings? i.e. the render settings I am using? I am doing nothing currently with the raw footage except rendering/converting it into a different footage which is actually compatible with most media players and youtube.

Current render settings are pictured here:

[poisondeathray]

vegas is overkill for just a simple conversion
If that's all you want to do, there are better, easier to use programs

file=>properties=>video tab

Look at the frame rate especially, and field order. As I said earlier, all 3 things have to match: the imported footage, project properties, and render settings.

[Woodserr]

I'm out on a limb here, but as far as I could interpret the settings that existed versus what you're telling me, I adjusted to this:


end result has no ghosting, but still mismatched fields (seems to be slightly less badly mis-matched than before though .. could just be me however!)

[edDV]

I've checked but the AVCHD does not support 24p although it is a loose marketing dominated format.

Most likely you have a proprietary telecine of 24p to 29.97i similar to what Canon does with HDV.

Question is whether Vegas Pro has any support for this non-standard variation?

This seems so much like 1995-1998 when there were no reliable consumer standards.


PS: They make this difficult on purpose because you failed to follow their bundled solution. No that is designed to not work as well.

[Woodserr]

I haven't a clue, my render options include these:


Would any of those formats work for my intended uses and support 24p?

[poisondeathray]

I use Premiere mostly now, and you have to use "interpret footage as", because of the wrapper that Canon uses (most programs misinterpret it as interlaced, like mediainfo, premiere, when it's actually progressive content)

Find out what your footage actually is by examining it, or upload a sample clip

If all you want to do is convert it, there are many better options. Vegas is near the last on my list for encoding.

[Woodserr]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1018902&page=2

^^ this seems to touch on something relating to your post edDV, but t's only written in half English!

[Woodserr]

I tried out Premiere, but Vegas was the only software which seemed to have everything I needed in one package. Premiere didn't natively support mds files I don't think, which would have added more time and another step to readying my clips for archiving or uploading

[Woodserr]

Here is a sample of the original footage I am dealing with:

http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=502909

[edDV]

You seem to think Canon or Sony want you to succeed at 24p with cheap consumer products.

This assumes 24p is the best solution for you which I doubt.

No they want you to buy more expensive hardware and software and expect a higher trained customer that understands the issues so support doesn't cost more than manufacturing and distribution. In other words, they want you to fail and go away. Or gain understanding and come back at a higher level.

[Woodserr]

haha,

well. . I mentioned before I'm open to switching the shooting mode to 60i if it would make everything simpler. . I'm obviously not trying to end up with a professional-grade end result, just documenting fun times and ultimately uploading some of the more exciting clips.

I haven't shot anything yet which is critically needed, so if the answer is just going with 60i then all I need to know is. . . 60i and what settings?!

[edDV]

haha,

well. . I mentioned before I'm open to switching the shooting mode to 60i if it would make everything simpler. . I'm obviously not trying to end up with a professional-grade end result, just documenting fun times and ultimately uploading some of the more exciting clips.

I haven't shot anything yet which is critically needed, so if the answer is just going with 60i then all I need to know is. . . 60i and what settings?!

Then shoot 60i.

If you want to make 24p (23.976p) work you will need to bone up and have a bank account (soon to be required for registration at Sundance).

[Woodserr]

Haha, I'll consider it a lost cause then!

So with 60i, what would need to be changed on my render and video settings/properties? Or will that wholly rely on the mediainfo's analysis of the new footage?

[poisondeathray]

You have a 2-3 field pattern it looks telecined 29.97
a-a-b-b-b-c-c-d-d-d etc..

One way of examining it is to separate the fields, and examine it in avisynth

When you IVTC it, it looks fine 23.976 fps (24p)

Not sure how vegas can handle this, I'll try to think of something, but you can do it in premiere because of the avs import plugin and ability to interpret footage differently

You can definitely do it with other programs as well, through avisynth, if all you want to do is a conversion.

If you don't want to learn all this stuff, vegas is equipped to handle 29.97i (what some people call 60i) much better and it's probably easier for your workflow to shoot that way

[Woodserr]

woaha. . . is the answer for me in here?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-vixia-hf-hg-series-avchd/105621-hg10-mts-file-24p-analysis.html

I'm reading it now, seems like there may be a solution if I can understand . ..

[edDV]

Camcorder project settings and bitrate expectations

1440x1080i/29.97 @17Mb/s
or
1920x1080i/29.97 @24Mb/s

Hint: 60i is "newspeak" for 29.97 interlace. (aka 59.94 fields per second).

[Woodserr]

great, thanks for the info edDV and the time you've taken on this thread!

I'm still reading that link I posted trying to make sense of it, maybe I'm not ready to give up hope on the 24p mode just yet. . it sounds like it has good potential if I can only get it done right.

[edDV]

I hate to see them build up 24p progressive when it takes training and shooting technique. Even industry pro shooters struggle with the concepts. If you want to understand, you will.

[minidv2dvd]

shooting 24p is for staged type video where nothing moves or the camera pans slowly with the subject centered and a short depth of field used to blur the background. not anything the typical consumer would find useful.

it's like eddv said it's wrapping the 24p in a 29.97 interlaced stream, if you step through the sample you uploaded there are 3 p frames followed by 2 i frames then 3 p, 2 i, etc. you need to inverse telecine the video back to pure 24p before you can use it in anything. as is it's a mix of interlaced and progressive frames that no editing software can use.