Very good roof antenna for HDTV that is very low profile ?

[Seeker47]

Rather than shoehorn it into this thread

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic367448-30.html#1989806

or some other one, I'm breaking this out as a separate query.

Low profile, as in very unobtrusive, not easy to spot ? I'm thinking in terms of a location that may not have any evident roof-mounted antennas (at least that I recall noticing), perhaps due to CC&Rs of the development ? Just wanted to see what options may exist, if any. Price level is Open.

[Yeah, I know all about that over-riding FCC directive, on consumers not being inhibited in regard to how they choose to pull in signal. It is Federal, and trumps anything state or local. However, I've lived for the last several years in a place where the landlord threatened eviction if you tried to mount anything on the roof. This is illegal, and the tenant would win this if it went to court, but not many are up for waging non-essential battles like this one.]

[minidv2dvd]

as a tenant you are not allowed to make any changes that the owner forbids. you would lose that case. you can only install an antenna in the area that you have exclusive control over.

OTARD rules do not apply to common areas that are owned by a landlord, a community association, or jointly by condominium owners. These common areas may include the roof or exterior walls of a multiple dwelling unit.

[Seeker47]

as a tenant you are not allowed to make any changes that the owner forbids. you would lose that case. you can only install an antenna in the area that you have exclusive control over.

OTARD rules do not apply to common areas that are owned by a landlord, a community association, or jointly by condominium owners. These common areas may include the roof or exterior walls of a multiple dwelling unit.

I think there may be some variance regarding how it was done. Drilling into the roof, or other lasting changes -- you're probably right. However, I was told that there are ways to do an install that are temporary and reversible, such as a clamp that attaches a small dish to a back balcony railing. Or on a pole or adjacent tree. At one time, I actually read through those 15 or so pages of the FCC ruling, highlighting sections in yellow. I'm quite sure that it did not exclude those leasing an apt. or condo. That would defeat the whole point of it.

Anyway, my original question hypothesizes a purchase, rather than a lease, and I'd still like to know if there are any such roof antennas that could go all but unnoticed.

[edDV]

Choice of antenna depends on signal strength at your location. Best plot of available channels and their direction is provided by TVfool.com. Enter your address and it generates the plot. You can post it here (address isn't shown)and we can recommend an antenna.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

[Seeker47]

Choice of antenna depends on signal strength at your location. Best plot of available channels and their direction is provided by TVfool.com. Enter your address and it generates the plot. You can post it here (address isn't shown)and we can recommend an antenna.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Thanks.

At this point, there are still a few location candidates . . . but we can start with these:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d582f3e4bf19efe

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d582fe4dd76e37f


They each cover additional possibilities, within a few blocks radius. Hopefully, the topography
won't vary too much, as between the locations for each.

To reprise, I think any antenna possibility would have to come as close to going unnoticed as possible.

[ahhaa]

google the Slinky antenna

[Seeker47]

google the Slinky antenna

Thanks, I will check that out.

Was wondering what ever happened to edDV, after I posted the info he requested, but I've been so swamped lately I did not get around to bumping the topic, even this late.

[edDV]

Sorry, I didn't see this when you posted the plots.

First observation, you have two VHF primary stations (ABC and CBS). These will require a VHF antenna but are strong. A rabbit ears may work. The rest are UHF.

Second observation, you do not have line of sight to the transmitters for any of the stations for 92121. 2Edge means two separate hills or ridges block the path as shown here for NBC (click on call letters for other stations)
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d582fe4dd76e37f%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d6

The 91230 location has direct line of sight to the two VHF stations @ only 6 miles so reception should be easy or too strong. The others are behind a single hill.

Third observation, the two VHF stations are located in a different direction from the UHF for both locations. For this reason, a single VHF/UHF antenna is less likely to work especially at 92121.

So for 91230, I'd first try to get the two VHF stations (8 and 10) with a rabbit ears or dipole from inside. If that works, try a directional UHF similar to this one from inside or attic pointed 120 degrees. This may work for both UHF and VHF because your VHF signals are so strong.
http://www.summitsource.com/winegard-ss3000-sharpshooter-indoor-hdtv-antenna-uhf-vhf-s...em-p-6536.html

92121 will be more difficult. I think you will need two antennas and a combiner. You will need to get up near the roof with something like these for UHF pointed 130 degrees
http://www.summitsource.com/antennacraft-cy1470-uhf-tv-antenna-21-electronic-elements-...70-p-6136.html
http://www.summitsource.com/direct-yagi-style-antennas-unidirectional-from-lava-high-p...le-p-9231.html

VHF will require something directional like this pointed 190 degrees.
http://www.summitsource.com/6-element-yagi-fm-antenna-6-ft-boom-high-gain-directional-...acturers_id=11

Combiner
http://www.summitsource.com/2-way-splitter-uhf-vhf-video-splitter-combiner-10-pack-ask...20-p-5276.html

Avoid the temptation to use amplifiers. You are in a valley with medium strong signals and many reflected "multi-path" bounces. Your goal is to isolate the direct stable signal from the bounced signals that will come and go with weather and temperature. The best way to do this is with directional antennas.

If you mount in an attic, larger antennas may be required. Composite shingles cut signal strength ~ 50%.

[Seeker47]

. . .
Avoid the temptation to use amplifiers. You are in a valley with medium strong signals and many reflected "multi-path" bounces. Your goal is to isolate the direct stable signal from the bounced signals that will come and go with weather and temperature. The best way to do this is with directional antennas.

If you mount in an attic, larger antennas may be required. Composite shingles cut signal strength ~ 50%.

edDV, Thanks for your detailed analysis of that data. It remains to be seen what sort of attic may apply here. (One that is really accessible, or not.) In either case, I would be leery of adding any extra electrical gear up there. The roof material is apt to be clay tiles, which I'm going to guess amounts to even more of a cut in signal strength. And I don't know what may be allowed by way of a roof mount. Antennas on the roof seem to be very much a rarity in these areas, perhaps due to CC&Rs.

[For any of our non-U.S. readers -- who may or may not have to deal with such local issues -- that stands for "Codes, Covenants, and Restrictions." It's the same idea as not being allowed to paint the side of your house in a dayglo likeness of Bozo the Clown, because that would tend to harm your neighbors' property values.]

[edDV]

. . .
Avoid the temptation to use amplifiers. You are in a valley with medium strong signals and many reflected "multi-path" bounces. Your goal is to isolate the direct stable signal from the bounced signals that will come and go with weather and temperature. The best way to do this is with directional antennas.

If you mount in an attic, larger antennas may be required. Composite shingles cut signal strength ~ 50%.

edDV, Thanks for your detailed analysis of that data. It remains to be seen what sort of attic may apply here. (One that is really accessible, or not.) In either case, I would be leery of adding any extra electrical gear up there. The roof material is apt to be clay tiles, which I'm going to guess amounts to even more of a cut in signal strength. And I don't know what may be allowed by way of a roof mount. Antennas on the roof seem to be very much a rarity in these areas, perhaps due to CC&Rs.

[For any of our non-U.S. readers -- who may or may not have to deal with such local issues -- that stands for "Codes, Covenants, and Restrictions." It's the same idea as not being allowed to paint the side of your house in a dayglo likeness of Bozo the Clown, because that would tend to harm your neighbors' property values.]

There is an FCC mandate that overrules any "Codes, Covenants, and Restrictions" for TV reception but you should have options to keep the profile low. Check out how others are dealing with it or demand free cable from the association.

[Seeker47]

First observation, you have two VHF primary stations (ABC and CBS). These will require a VHF antenna but are strong. A rabbit ears may work. The rest are UHF.

Second observation, you do not have line of sight to the transmitters for any of the stations for 92121. 2Edge means two separate hills or ridges block the path as shown here for NBC (click on call letters for other stations)
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d582fe4dd76e37f%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d6

The 91230 location has direct line of sight to the two VHF stations @ only 6 miles so reception should be easy or too strong. The others are behind a single hill.

Third observation, the two VHF stations are located in a different direction from the UHF for both locations. For this reason, a single VHF/UHF antenna is less likely to work especially at 92121.

So for 91230, I'd first try to get the two VHF stations (8 and 10) with a rabbit ears or dipole from inside. If that works, try a directional UHF similar to this one from inside or attic pointed 120 degrees. This may work for both UHF and VHF because your VHF signals are so strong.
http://www.summitsource.com/winegard-ss3000-sharpshooter-indoor-hdtv-antenna-uhf-vhf-s...em-p-6536.html
92121 will be more difficult. I think you will need two antennas and a combiner. You will need to get up near the roof with something like these . . .

Just out of curiosity, have you (or anyone else reading this) seen this device

http://www.datoptic.com/cgi-bin/web.cgi?product=LP-49&detail=yes

as a possible indoor solution where signals are strong and line of sight is good ?

I would not want to draw any conclusions from my prior situation, which was very different from either of the ones presented in this thread, but -- for that -- my sampling of various indoor antennas (amplified or not) had rather poor results. Another location with a different device, might be a different story.

[edDV]

What makes you think this will work? Google shows no positive reviews. This DAT Optic copy says " all the band of DTV(Digital HDTV)" where other sites say it is UHF (450-870MHz) only. BTW the current UHF TV band is only 470-699 MHz so this must be an old design.

There is no explanation of why it should work or even if it works.

[Seeker47]

What makes you think this will work?

Well, I was very skeptical. They claimed to be using it for this demo I saw, which was in a hangar-sized space where the building had a lot of concrete.

Google shows no positive reviews. This DAT Optic copy says " all the band of DTV(Digital HDTV)" where other sites say it is UHF (450-870MHz) only. BTW the current UHF TV band is only 470-699 MHz so this must be an old design.

There is no explanation of why it should work or even if it works.

The demo was actually for a whole system, but mainly for their "Media Center replacement" device, which I inquired about in another thread. I know what I saw in the demo (the pretty good image quality), but not really how they were getting it, which could have been almost anything. This casts all of it into doubt, and possibly into the flimflam category.

[edDV]

DTV image quality is a given. Reception problems show as intermittent reception or artifacts from the tuner-decoder as it sorts out multi-path. Bad reception in strong signal areas isn't improved by amplification. You must reject multi-path with directional antennas pointed to the source.

Fringe reception requires directional antennas and sometimes mast mounted amplification.

VHF Ch7-13 (175 - 216 MHz) require different antenna designs vs. UHF Ch 14-51 (470-699 MHz).