Europe to get only full version of Win7E and no browser as ordered.

[edDV]

No upgrade possible. New browserless code.
Full Version at upgrade prices
Does little until you get a browser elsewhere.
http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/e_preview.asp

[stiltman]

Great move on MS's part. I wouldn't bow down to the EU commission either.

Just think about when they do figure out how to kill IE 6-7-8 with the upgrade....Boy I bet a LOT of people are going to say what the F$^&, what happened to my browser, even though they clicked on the license box

I would also put a little box somewhere alerting them to the fact they can not get on the internet with this new OS is due to the EU and their lawsuits

[orsetto]

Oh. please: as if we don't all know by now MS is the evil empire run by a vindictive petty pr**k who can't stomach when people (especially govmint people) call him on his bullsh*t. Let's not have any "MS is righteous and IE is wonderful" nonsense, we're ten years past all that crap. MS wants complete control over computing and the internet: old news. The EU sociocrats are a bunch of hypocritical dweebs, as were our own douchebag feds when they tangled with MS: again old news. (And Apple is run by the biggest scam-artist control freak of all: oldest news.) Pretending any of these entities actually gives a damn about consumers is a joke. Politicians are just politicians, and there are no altruists in the world of personal computing: even the monks and nuns who program for Linux have ambitions.

This little battle should be amusing to watch, though: Gates thinks he's gonna break the EU's balls, but he can't hold a candle to EU bureaucratic nut-vising perfected over a century. The EU can and will tolerate a huge backlash from consumers just for the sake of telling MS to go f**k itself for awhile. All the confusion might result in a brief "window" of opportunity for FireFox, but its doubtful Opera or the other browser also-rans will get any traction from this. Nothing will really change: MS will play its cards well, it always does, and eventually the status quo will fall back into place with IE grafted to Windows again. But not before a fun time is had by all, and many a soapbox is stood upon.

[deadrats]

No upgrade possible. New browserless code.
Full Version at upgrade prices
Does little until you get a browser elsewhere.
http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/e_preview.asp

i'm a tad perplexed as to what the problem is, as the article pointed out, if someone is tech savvy enough to install windows 7 from scratch i'm guessing they're tech savvy enough to download a browser of their choice to a usb drive along with the drivers for their system, either from another system or before they begin the new installation.

furthermore it seems to me that microsoft is giving a break to their customers as they are selling the full version at upgrade prices, a significant cost savings.

i've personally never understood why the EU was so up in arms over what browser windows comes with, it's microsoft's OS why should they be expected to include anyone else's browser? if the opera or firefox people want their browser bundled with an OS let them develop their own OS. and i also can't understand how only including IE with windows can be anti-competitive since none of the competing browsers are sold to consumers, they are free software. by definition you can't have a portion of the market if you aren't selling anything, "the market" only exists when a product is being exchanged for monetary consideration, without the software being for sale there can't be any anti-competitive practice.

none of the whole browser uproar makes any sense.

[guns1inger]

And if this is Anti-Trust, and not Anti-Microsoft, why does it not extend to OS X and Safari/iLife etc., or any Linux Distro that chooses to ship with only a single browser. The EU (and it's predecessor) has a long history or inconsistent and just plain dumb decisions, and this is just another one.

[edDV]

How about shipping Mercedes and BMW without engines and transmissions. The user can figure out how to source the missing parts and have the car assembled.

Why shouldn't Ford, Toyota or GM have the opporunity to offer engine/transmission kits for these cars?

Along the same idea, factory radios and GPS should be unbundled too. Mercedes and BMW should be required to support an API for third party developers.

[stiltman]

Oh. please: (snippy) and many a soapbox is stood upon.

Damn good reading orsetto, Damn good


I however really think this is going to change things. I bet Firefox will be 70% or more in the EU after this. Now, judging by the latest (maybe flawed reports) of the decline of IE to Firefox, this trend could change big time by MS's move. Just think if MS said, Well screw you, we won't sell Windows in the EU anymore....Man, I would love to have seen that.

Note the linux groupies....No it's not ready to compete on the desktop level.

Now that would leave OSX...The totaly monopoly!!

MS would have it made in court cases after that.... Not only that, but MS still owns like 20-30% of Apple's stock

Full circle

[AlanHK]

No upgrade possible. New browserless code.
Full Version at upgrade prices
Does little until you get a browser elsewhere.
http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/e_preview.asp

I would also put a little box somewhere alerting them to the fact they can not get on the internet with this new OS is due to the EU and their lawsuits

Wrong. The article says:

And you can't add it back via Programs and Features as you can in versions of Windows 7 that will be sold elsewhere around the world.

Of course not -- that would mean it WAS included.

But that DOES NOT mean you can't "upgrade" it to get IE. Just that you have to get the file first. When you buy the PC or the program, you can get a browser at the same time: Firefox, Opera, or, yes, even IE, on another disc, very likely free. (Back in the early 90s, when you bought a modem or signed up with an ISP, they'd give you a floppy with utilities including a browser. We managed.)

Anyway, the OS will still include Internet support. Just not a browser. So you will be able to get files, e.g. by ftp , even without a browser, if you want to bootstrap. People who can't handle that wouldn't be installing their own OS to begin with.

If you buy a new PC, you will be asked which browser you want. It will be there when you turn it on the first time.
No one is going to be deprived of their Internet because of this, not even for a minute. The only thing is that users would be asked to choose which browser they wanted. Is that such a terrible imposition?

Some people really believe that Bill Gates invented the PC, the windows and mouse GUI, word processor, the Internet, and that there is only one way to do anything: the Microsoft way.

[stiltman]

I would also put a little box somewhere alerting them to the fact they can not get on the internet with this new OS is due to the EU and their lawsuits

Wrong. The article says:

And you can't add it back via Programs and Features as you can in versions of Windows 7 that will be sold elsewhere around the world.

Of course not -- that would mean it WAS included.

But that DOES NOT mean you can't "upgrade" it to get IE. Just that you have to get the file first. When you buy the PC or the program, you can get a browser at the same time: Firefox, Opera, or, yes, even IE, on another disc, very likely free. (Back in the early 90s, when you bought a modem or signed up with an ISP, they'd give you a floppy with utilities including a browser. We managed.)

Anyway, the OS will still include Internet support. Just not a browser. So you will be able to get files, eg by ftp, even without a browser, if you want to bootstrap. (E.g., see http://www.boutell.com/newfaq/browser/installfirefoxwithoutie.html) People who can't handle that wouldn't be installing their own OS to begin with.

If you buy a new PC, you will be asked which browser you want. It will be there when you turn it on the first time.
No one is going to be deprived of their Internet because of this, not even for a minute.

Some people really believe that Bill Gates invented the PC, the windows and mouse GUI, word processor, the Internet, and that there is only one way to do anything: the Microsoft way.

I'm not wrong, and I never referred to the article in quotes.
My statement still stands

OK how many NEW computer buyers know how to use FTP DOS commands? NONE!!!!
You can say all ya want about it but not one person that buys a new computer will ever use a DOS FTP command line to get a browser....NEVER will happen.

Sure the OEMs will include installs for browsers, but that money will in turn go back to MS for the options for desktop.

Like I said, MS should of discontinued Windows for the EU altogether...Forcing the freacking EU commission to eat crow...
Or to give Apple (total monopoly) head way...In turn giving every other OS a chance to make the EU look like a bunch of money grabbing a holes like they are by suing for the same reasons....

I mean look at the EU commission, I have nothing against them, but they do seem to go after the deepest pockets
I say screw them.....I'd say the same thing if it were any other gov. entity

[edDV]

Wrong. The article says:

And you can't add it back via Programs and Features as you can in versions of Windows 7 that will be sold elsewhere around the world.

Of course not -- that would mean it WAS included.

But that DOES NOT mean you can't "upgrade" it to get IE. Just that you have to get the file first. When you buy the PC or the program, you can get a browser at the same time: Firefox, Opera, or, yes, even IE, on another disc, very likely free. (Back in the early 90s, when you bought a modem or signed up with an ISP, they'd give you a floppy with utilities including a browser. We managed.)

Read again. Vista can be upgraded in place everywhere else in the world without the format partition tango. XP upgrade does require a clean install.

Win7E is not available in an upgrade version, only the "full" version. The "full" version requires a clean install.

[AlanHK]

I'm not wrong, and I never referred to the article in quotes.
My statement still stands

The sentence I quoted:
"they can not get on the internet with this new OS" is wrong.

And I never said you quoted the article.

OK how many NEW computer buyers know how to use FTP DOS commands? NONE!!!!

Of course not.

Like I said, MS should of discontinued Windows for the EU altogether...Forcing the freacking EU commission to eat crow...

Sure. MS will give up billions of dollars in revenue to spite the EC.

Ballmer swoops in on a corporate jet to hand out wads of cash to any government that hints it might drop Microsoft.
The real cash cow for MS is Office. They don't make any money out of IE.
No Windows, No MS Office. (Yeah it runs on Mac -- but if Apple took over the desktop, within two years MS Office would be a "legacy" application.)

[AlanHK]

Read again. Vista can be upgraded in place everywhere else in the world without the format partition tango. XP upgrade does require a clean install.

Win7E is not available in an upgrade version, only the "full" version. The "full" version requires a clean install.

Okay, I "read again". No clue what you are talking about.

"format partition tango"?

Are you saying that it is impossible to add IE to this Euro version?
I don't see anythng about that. Please cite.

[edDV]

I think the communication gap is ...

1. Win7E requires a format and clean install. After that you have no browser or way to get one unless you downloaded one before the reformat.

2. Cleaver users could have someone email them a browser or use FTP to get one.

[G)-(OST]

I think every one of your comments so far have valid points, although I think MS should be able to include there own browser at the very least, really, how is the average user, who only knows how to turn on the PC & very basic navigation going to download a browser, just my 2 cents worth.

[AlanHK]

I think the communication gap is ...

1. Win7E requires a format and clean install. After that you have no browser or way to get one unless you downloaded one before the reformat.

2. Cleaver users could have someone email them a browser or use FTP to get one.

I didn't assume they had email, though I suppose Outlook will still be included.
That makes it trivial.
Surely MS will have "Send email to getIE@microsoft.com to have an installer sent to you."

The whole idea is to stop the bundling and exclusion of othe browsers, not to prevent MS offering IE at all.

re 2: Stupid users would use a CDROM, a USB drive, or copy over LAN, or .... ASK THE COMPUTER VENDOR to do it.

[edDV]

I think every one of your comments so far have valid points, although I think MS should be able to include there own browser at the very least, really, how is the average user, who only knows how to turn on the PC & very basic navigation going to download a browser, just my 2 cents worth.

MS was fined millions of Euros because they added a browser for free when others were charging for one. That was considered non-competitive by the EU so they made MS remove the browser from Windows. This only made sense to the EU politicians.

[AlanHK]

I think every one of your comments so far have valid points, although I think MS should be able to include there own browser at the very least, really, how is the average user, who only knows how to turn on the PC & very basic navigation going to download a browser, just my 2 cents worth.

They don't install Windows for themself. Whoever does that will do it for them.

[edDV]

I think the communication gap is ...

1. Win7E requires a format and clean install. After that you have no browser or way to get one unless you downloaded one before the reformat.

2. Cleaver users could have someone email them a browser or use FTP to get one.

re 1: See my point above on ftp. Yes, not for stupid users, but possible.

re 2: Stupid users would use a CDROM, a USB drive, or copy over LAN, or .... ASK THE COMPUTER VENDOR to do it.

I think the the poor user should insist their local Member of Parliament hand deliver a CD at 2AM on a Sunday night which is when we run into these road blocks.

[G)-(OST]

MS was fined millions of Euros because they added a browser for free when others were charging for one. That was considered non-competitive by the EU so they made MS remove the browser from Windows. This only made sense to the EU politicians.

It is there operating system after all...................isn't it?

[edDV]

I think every one of your comments so far have valid points, although I think MS should be able to include there own browser at the very least, really, how is the average user, who only knows how to turn on the PC & very basic navigation going to download a browser, just my 2 cents worth.

They don't install Windows for themself. Whoever does that will do it for them.

Then what was the fuss and fines about removing the browser? In many parts of the world the user upgrades his own Windows.

[G)-(OST]

They don't install Windows for themself. Whoever does that will do it for them.

My brother in-law re-formats his PC at least once a year, I just asked him how he would access the internet to acquire an internet browser if there wasn't one included in the operating system, guess what his answer was, "I don't know, go and buy one from the shop"

I think you assume to much, just because people know how to install an operating system, they automatically know how to turn the PC upside down, this is not true, when I learned how to install an operating system, that was pretty much as advanced as I got, I decided that I wanted to know more, therefor I delved deeper to learn more, but for my brother in-law, he doesn't really care for much more than knowing how to reformat his computer once it starts playing up, I don't think he even knows that he can just do a "system restore", in fact, he doesn't.

[AlanHK]

Then what was the fuss and fines about removing the browser? In many parts of the world the user upgrades his own Windows.

You answered that yourself.

MS was fined millions of Euros because they added a browser for free when others were charging for one. That was considered non-competitive by the EU

Though actually, the fines were because THEY IGNORED COURT ORDERS to unbundle IE.
They were not prohibited from giving it away.

[edDV]

MS was fined millions of Euros because they added a browser for free when others were charging for one. That was considered non-competitive by the EU

Though actually, the fines were because THEY IGNORED COURT ORDERS to unbundle IE.
They were not prohibited from giving it away.

And MS response was it would take a re-write of Windows to remove it. That is what they have finally done. I still don't see the big deal. The EU should have set up and promoted a web site with alternate browsers. The Netscape and Opera folk would have opposed that because there would have been dozens listed. They wanted MS to include only their browsers on the Windows CD.

BTW: How does Nokia get away with bundling their browser on cell phones? Aren't they the market share leader?

[AlanHK]

They don't install Windows for themself. Whoever does that will do it for them.

My brother inlaw re-formats his PC at least once a year, I just asked him how he would access the internet to acquire an internet browser if there wasn't one included in the operating system, guess what his answer was, "I don't know, go and buy one from the shop"

So, no problem.

For God's sake, people make up these scenarios as if suddenly ninjas are going to sneak into everyone's home (at 2am in the morning) and DELETE THE INTERNETS!!!!

It will be very plain on the box that "IE NOT INCLUDED" and then "Get your free browser from..."
There will be plenty of publicity.

The point of sale will give them away.
Computer magazines will include browsers on CD inserts.
McDonalds will give them away with Happy Meals.
Etc, etc.

[edDV]

But what was the goal for all of this?

I know a shakedown when I see one.

[AlanHK]

And MS response was it would take a re-write of Windows to remove it. That is what they have finally done.

Good. It was a huge error to entangle it in the OS.

I still don't see the big deal. The EU should have set up and promoted a web site with alternate browsers. The Netscape and Opera folk would have opposed that because there would have been dozens listed. They wanted MS to include only their browsers on the Windows CD.

Why should the EU set up a browser distribution website?
There's a thousand sites that do that already.
It'd just create another bureaucracy to certify browsers.

[AlanHK]

But what was the goal for all of this?

I know a shakedown when I see one.

If governments want to "shakedown" anyone, they don't have to spend decades in court.
They just pass a new tax law.

[edDV]

Over here the DC politicians were less obtuse. They gave MS hell on wheels until Gates hired the top politically connected (both parties) law firms in DC (retirement lobbyist centers for politicians that lost the last election). Millions were passed as "fees". Then came the campaign donations.

First I should have said that Gates made it public that he saw no reason to use lobbyists or contribute to political campaigns. That set them off.

[G)-(OST]

They don't install Windows for themself. Whoever does that will do it for them.

My brother inlaw re-formats his PC at least once a year, I just asked him how he would access the internet to acquire an internet browser if there wasn't one included in the operating system, guess what his answer was, "I don't know, go and buy one from the shop"

So, no problem.

For God's sake, people make up these scenarios as if suddenly ninjas are going to sneak into everyone's home (at 2am in the morning) and DELETE THE INTERNETS!!!!

It will be very plain on the box that "IE NOT INCLUDED" and then "Get your free browser from..."
There will be plenty of publicity.

The point of sale will give them away.
Computer magazines will include browsers on CD inserts.
McDonalds will give them away with Happy Meals.
Etc, etc.

Yup, all of what you said would probably turn out to be true, I personaly think that buying a mag or buying a happy meal or waiting for some little ninja's to set up my web browser is lame.

MS should be able to offer their own browser with "their" operating system, full stop.

[AlanHK]

MS should be able to offer their own browser with "their" operating system, full stop.

They ARE allowed to OFFER it, Exclamation mark.